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The Codexian Saga LP

Discussion in 'Choose Your Own Adventure Land' started by The Barbarian, May 8, 2010.

  1. Brotherman Bill Arcane

    Brotherman Bill
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    So... Everyone voting A, with the reasoning that we need to rebuild before going into war:
    Have you ever considered that the hin'in might rebuild as well? By the time we are done rebuilding (which is "never" according to you types) the hin'in have started rebuilding as well... And unlike us, they have their core industrial worlds intact, as well as considerable colonial worlds.

    So, assume that their total territory is three times as large as ours (conservative estimate). In this case, we will have to grow three times as fast as they only to keep up with their total growth. And on top of this, their industry is likely in better shape than ours already.

    So in short trying to do this alone, shields or no shields, is ridiculous and fanatical. From our very first contact the hin'in were always about divide and conquer, and you guys are not only oblivious to that strategy, you are actively endorsing it... Codexia has suffered enough abuse throughout the ages; don't make her suffer more. Don't vote A.
     
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  2. praetor Arcane

    praetor
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    option B. the longer we stall the psychomidgets, the better
     
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  3. Murk Arcane

    Murk
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    We were doing it at a ridiculous trade-off of how many lives/ships we lose compared to how much damage we do. It was something like 3:1, those are numbers that I can't possibly accept as an actual 'strategy'.

    The other thing is, if they are in a standstill now - why not tip the balance? Though we have fucked the Raumeni over enough in the past that it may not even worth be salvaging now, but eh.
     
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  4. LusciousPear Savant

    LusciousPear
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    MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
    Remember in "Ender's Game", they figured out the secret to defeating the telepathic bugs was to destroy the leader?

    They way they did it is by observing how the fleet moved -- Ender and Mance realized that all the ships moved from the "perspective" of one main ship. That's how the found the leaders, and took 'em out.

    Can we use this to our advantage?

    If we can concentrate on taking down the fleet leaders... we'll win.
     
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  5. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    Codex 2012
    Assuming the war will end before damaging their industrial worlds, or that their industrial worlds aren't already damaged, assuming that the Hin'in will actually win. There's enough variables we can't predict.

    Also, they had about two thousand ships total in their entire fleet before this war started - about as much as the Commonwealth and Codexia combined. Not insurmountable odds. Don't turn the Hin'in Empire into some bogeyman that is unbeatable unless we strike now. Leave that sort of stuff for propaganda aimed towards the sheeple.

    The only thing harming Codexia here is jumping into a war we have no business in while our economy is unstable - haven't we done that enough times already to know it's a bad idea?

    That ridiculous trade-off was during an era of greater technological disparity. The difference shouldn't be too great right now, plus shielding compensates for inferior mobility.

    As for the Raumen, acting this late to help them could give them the impression we're just trying to get a piece of the pie after they've done all the heavy work. But really, I wouldn't speculate too much on this.

    Fact is, our economy is TOTTERING. That's the exact same word that the Barbarian used. Our economy is about to collapse. Getting into a war right now will collapse it. This is not speculation, this is fact. Thinking about the political ramifications of the future is all well and good but there's no point if we break our economy, allow Commonwealth remnants to regain support, and, more importantly, hurt our people for the sake of alien lives.

    But, hey, if the Barbarian assures us we can last a few years in sustained war with the Hin'in without fragmenting our socio-economic landscape, I retract whatever I just said. :D
     
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  6. The Barbarian Liturgist

    The Barbarian
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    There is no potential for the supply of materiel to the Raumeni to collapse the Respublican economy, though the rebuilding effort would definitely be somewhat derailed.

    Your policy advisers and economic think tanks would state that a war, at this stage, would definitely not help the economy - but that the state would likely manage the burden, barring any major disaster. The Venerable Respublica has been on a de facto war footing for some time now, already. The citizenry is somewhat inured to material deprivation.
     
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  7. MasterSmithFandango Arcane

    MasterSmithFandango
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    Your numbers are off. The Hin'in had probably 2-3 times as many ships at least as Codexia and the Commonwealth combined. They're now facing a war on their own soil, so assuming that they won't be building is stupid. We can fix our economy later if need be, we can eliminate a significant threat to our borders now, and probably not later. The Raumeni won't last much longer: They're he Japanese at Okinawa right now, doing anything they can to cause damage, but with no real chance of winning the war. That means that the Hin'in have been able to split the forces against them and are still winning one front while at least stalemating the other. We can tip that balance, and missing that opportunity is completely foolish.
     
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  8. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    Ah yes, we only matched the number of ships they had in the Raumen territories. My memory was faulty. Sorry.

    And thus I retract my prior statement. If this is the case then war would not be as disastrous as I thought and is now a very viable option to doing nothing.
     
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  9. Murk Arcane

    Murk
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    Shielding will help, yes, but previously it wasn't a technological disparity but rather they were tactically more proficient and competent. They excelled at spreading our troops and luring them into ambushes and traps where their better coordination and minor technological advantage proved valuable. The majority of the time we could beat them pretty fairly on head-on fights, but they don't fight like that, they play the Mongolian Horde game and spread out while run and regroup and generally fuck with conventional tactics.

    Like-wise, i agree, and regardless of what they think -- their help in putting out the Hin'in is, in my mind, much more important than any race relations.

    But I don't think like a Marianite... rather, I do. I think pragmatically, and I imagine the leaders of any theocracy are pragmatists as well... they just know which puppet to play.
     
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  10. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
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    A few points I'd like to make:

    a) Ramen are always going to be around to some extent - short of the Hiney engaging in systematic genocide.

    b) Whatever happens, we're going to have bugs on our door-step, trying to get in through the fly-screen. It doesn't particulary matter whether they're red bugs or green bugs - they're still bugs.

    c) Even if the Hiney's win, they will be economically ruined - unless we're somehow the only race that has to worry about silly things like that. And they'll still be fighting the Bro. Their economy can't be in good shape.

    d) We have a chance to get a head-start and get our economy in over-drive, putting us in a very solid foundation for what will inevitably be the coming future conflict.

    Think of the Ramen as like France. They surrender quickly and are defeated in record time - they get occupied for a few years but it's surprisingly easy to turn the tide back the other way and oust the German menace. However, in order to do that, we need to have our shit at home sorted.

    We were rocking pretty well until the Commo decided to fuck shit up. Let's get into the position where that doesn't happen again and move as one united force of awe-inspiring awesome - rather than pushing ourselves further by siding with bugs - who didn't even want our help in the first place.

    Let us also not forget the Ramen attacked our Ancestors. They are not our friends.
     
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  11. BethesdaLove Arbiter

    BethesdaLove
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    Its Raumen and they didn't. Liar.
     
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  12. Brotherman Bill Arcane

    Brotherman Bill
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    My argument is based on all these assumptions, it is true. Your argument is based on the assumption that these assumptions aren't true.

    So which is more likely? Let's go through the assumptions:

    First, the hin'in have a significant empire. The fighting we have seen so far have been going on in occupied territory - thus, it is likely that their core worlds are intact.

    Second, they have already won the conventional war in Raumen space. The Raumen are still fighting but they are mostly doing asymmetrical warfare. They aren't even able to protect their worlds from being burned. It is safe to say that they won't be able to free themselves without external help.

    And if the BROS couldn't beat the hin'in without Raumen help, the BROS probably couldn't beat them with the Raumen uprising quelled.

    So in short, it is likely that my assumptions are correct.
     
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  13. Luan Educated

    Luan
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    Good! Let them burn, ungrateful bastards.
     
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  14. MasterSmithFandango Arcane

    MasterSmithFandango
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    Economic support won't help a people that are resorting to suicide bombing. The only way to truly tip the balance is to get involved ourselves. Why are we so willing to go to war with other humans, but we shy away from attacking xenos?
     
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  15. taplonaplo Scholar

    taplonaplo
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    Coz the aliens didn't attack us since... was it our first contact war or the phyrries?
     
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  16. MasterSmithFandango Arcane

    MasterSmithFandango
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    They attacked the Commo though... is it hard to think that the only reason they didn't attack us was the Commos were a buffer? We don't have that buffer anymore. The Hin'in are expansionist, and after they deal with the Raumeni and truce with the Bron, which will happen, they'll only have one place to go, and we won't be able to stop them.
     
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  17. anus_pounder Arcane

    anus_pounder
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    Not changing my vote, but I assume that by the time they crush the ramen and truce with the bros AND rebuild their military, we would also have got our shit together (+ expanded a bit maybe).
     
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  18. MasterSmithFandango Arcane

    MasterSmithFandango
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    Them having their shit together is a lot better off than us having our shit together. It's the Roman Empire having their shit together against... umm... I don't know, something tiny.
     
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  19. Radech Augur

    Radech
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    [​IMG]

    goooooooo druidic shield tech
     
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  20. The Barbarian Liturgist

    The Barbarian
    Joined:
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    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    A - Radech
    D - Nickless
    A - treave
    A - laclongquan
    D - herostratus
    D - Mikayel
    A - Azira
    B - Conkrete Knight
    C - Bethesda Love
    A - meeneque
    A - wjw
    B - Ulminati
    A - Luan
    A - anus_pounder
    A - taplonaplo
    D - obediah
    D - Flying Spaghetti Monster
    D - LusciousPear
    A - Dark Underlord
    B - juggernaut
    B - praetor
    B - root

    A = 10
    B = 5
    C = 1
    D = 6

    Winner = A

    The update is forthcoming over the next six hours.
     
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  21. obediah Erudite

    obediah
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    5,051
    I bow before the Barbarian's counting skill (and blood-dripping sword), but in the future I hope he will consider more creative partitioning of votes. In this particular case, I think the crux of the vote was whether or not to intervene in the hin'in-raumen war. Because there were three competing votes for intervention, isolationism won in a landslide even though more councilors sought intervention.

    I understand that no matter how clever a scheme Conan comes up with, we sniveling councilors find a way to fuck it sideways, We can only hope he will continue to show us more patience than we deserve.
     
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  22. The Barbarian Liturgist

    The Barbarian
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    Conan understands the concern - it is an issue that has cropped up repeatedly since the inception of this exercise.

    In retrospect, the choice perhaps should have been made modular, with two collated options (depicting intervention/non-intervention and the level of commitment to fighting the Hin'in).

    If there is no serious opposition, Conan will strongly consider a 'play-off' vote, in situations such as this, in the future, so as to better reflect the will of the voting body.

    This democracy business makes the Barbarian's head hurt. His inclination is to hit things until they agree to his views.
     
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  23. The Barbarian Liturgist

    The Barbarian
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    Location:
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    The Wheel Keeps on Turning

    The Fourth Great Terror and the Leonidian Purges would wrack the newly reincorporated Commonwealth space for almost half a decade, in the aftermath of the Respublican-Commo War. During that time, the much maligned Maxim Cassano’s DPSIA and its various political-religious instruments reshaped Commo society. The period of 360-363AU saw monumental changes take place in the governed territories, with draconian measures put into place against all forms of heresy, apostasy and dissent. Thousands more fell victim to Cassano’s holy ‘ghazi’ (a derogatory name for his security personnel, coined by bitterly resentful Commos), who left no stone unturned in stamping out evil (as they saw it). Insult was added to injury, as children orphaned in the security sweeps were ‘adopted’ by the state, to be raised as model Respublicans. Even back on Codexia, many were left with a sour taste in their mouths, as word reached home of Cassano’s ‘efficiency’.

    The historian, of course, must always beware of hasty characterisations. Governor Maxim Cassano was a harsh man and a brutal overseer, but, according to all available information, he was also an uncompromisingly professional, astute and personally pleasant individual. Calling him a ‘monster’ is, perhaps, a distortion of the reality; an unlimited mandate with a lofty goal is fertile ground for excess. Cassano was just a man. His was an evil lurking in all men of ambition. In any case, the repression of the Terror years was wound down very carefully, as the Commos became acclimatized to their new lives as citizens of a theocratic republic. By 363AU, resistance had slackened to almost nothing. The throngs of Leonid and the shanty towns of New Bristol alike were by then resigned to their fate, and apathetic as to the future. Cassano was well rewarded for his efforts in that achievement.

    In the meantime, the Venerable Respublica, as a whole, began to recover from the strains of a long and costly conflict. The damage to the home world was slowly being repaired. Monuments were put up to honour a heroic and a righteous people. The economy was given a major boost by the eventual inclusion of the old Commonwealth into the Respublican free trade zone – though productivity remained subpar. All in all, defence spending stayed high, but fell as an overall percentage of the gross domestic product. Shielding was finally installed on all major warships in the ‘Space’ fleet, and combat readiness was strongly emphasized in the published White Paper, and was thereafter maintained as a matter of course. New vessels of war were coming out of the slip yards at record pace, as the state girded itself to take part in regional politics.

    The wider Hin’in War dragged on. At times intermittent – even uneventful – and at others brutal and frenetic, it was a strange sort of conflict. Months would pass without a notable clash, and then a seemingly random, swirling melee would result in the destruction of dozens of vessels. Planetary bastions were fought over methodically, with manoeuvre substituting brute force, where brute force was lacking. In Raumeni space, the Hin’in hoarded their resources, only grudgingly engaging significant forces of the insectoid resistance. They were evidently becoming misers, when it came to spending their limited available resources. The state of the fighting in the Hin’in domain, itself, was still relatively unknown. The Bron had made appreciable gains – that much seemed obvious – but had been stalemated for some time. The entire affair was becoming almost routine, and war the status quo. The longer they considered it, the more many Respublican officials wondered aloud whether or not, in fact, there was anything to gain by taking any further part in the endlessly conflict.

    Searching eyes instead locked on to other possibilities for the advancement of Marianism and the human race as a whole. In particular, the Phyr Dead Zone offered a unique opportunity for renewing the colonial dynamic that had been stilted for so many decades now in the human sphere. Not only were there many known, habitable worlds strewn across the Zone, but they were also unclaimed for the most part. After all, the Phyr were a scattered, broken people, the remnants of which could hardly be expected to put up much of a fight in the face of a determined Respublican colonial drive. Another option presented itself in the form of the huge, largely unexplored expanse of space that lay to the ‘galactic north’. Though rumoured to be home to the crystalline Amoneth, Codexian pioneers had found little trace of those mythical beings over the centuries. Even if they still resided there, they were either unwilling or unable to present themselves to make contact with the encroaching humans. Finally, a Neo-Confucian school of thought strongly advocated an insular approach to state building, pushing for a virtually sterile colonial environment. They were concerned by needless expansionism, and wanted instead to focus on the internal health of the Respublica.

    A long-term choice is, thus, required.

    Do you... prepare the state to take advantage of the fallout from the Hin’in War? Sooner or later, the time to strike will be right. Our enemies are weakening by the day. Let us orient our economic, social and political policies toward successfully defeating these xenos, and claiming what we will from them.

    OR

    Do you... concentrate instead on exploiting the territories of the scattered Phyr? Their resistance would be weak – perhaps even non-existent – and their dead worlds are ripe for the taking. We could glean almost endless resources at next to no cost. The Turanei seem to have no interest there, whatsoever.

    OR

    Do you... choose to expand into the empty expanse to the galactic north? The Amoneth are myth and legend. If they were going to show themselves, they would have done so already. Who knows what lies beyond? Let us take advantage of this lull by exploring this stellar wilderness.

    OR

    Do you... look inward? The Neo-Confucians are right. Why look elsewhere for salvation, when our people continue to face uncertainty and difficulty in everyday life? Let us pursue peaceful, internal development. Let us expand our economy, broaden our horizons and carve out our own destinies. We will not be weakened by peace. Quite the contrary; it will cement the Venerable Respublica across the stars. Our fleets will be strong and our people happy.

    Please Note: Long-term, in this case, signifies that the choice will affect at least a decade of game-time. Consider it from that perspective.
     
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  24. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
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    Technically it's Raumeni bitch and oh yes they did. Never forget that it was the Ramen who occupied Schadenfreude. :salute:

    I have not forgotten. Have you?

    What utter piffle, tripe and nonsense councillors! Why would we go to war in the aide of xenos?

    There is an end-game scenario in here somewhere. One in which we can focus on the home-front and defend ourselves against any future unwarranted aggression.
     
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  25. The Barbarian Liturgist

    The Barbarian
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    You have embarrassed Conan, but you have done so correctly. He will forgive you this gaffe.

    :love:
     
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