From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Damned Registrations]

Really, you don't find anything fucked up about answering 'Do you want me to X, unless you think Y?' with 'Yes'?

Do you swear to tell the truth, unless you wanted to lie...?

No.

Great! I trust you 100% glad that was perfectly clear.

 

[Ninjerk]

I dont get how can you misinterpret the question.

Answer "yes" (decline)

• 
  
  
  • I'd be please to help you.
    … Ah, unless you find the magics unsavoury?
    • Answer "yes" (decline)

They really flipped the script on us with that one. Fucking brilliant.

 

[SerratedBiz]

Really, you don't find anything fucked up about answering 'Do you want me to X, unless you think Y?' with 'Yes'?

Do you swear to tell the truth, unless you wanted to lie...?

No.

Great! I trust you 100% glad that was perfectly clear.

This is so fucking retarded I don't even

 

[dunno lah]

Saying "Yes" as in, "yes, i do find your magics unsavoury". What's wrong with that? Just requires some processing thats all...

 

[Damned Registrations]

Because it could also be 'yes' as in 'Yes, go ahead and share your spells with me.'

If the replies had been something like 'I do' or 'I'd like to learn.' the meaning would have been explicit.

 

[Akratus]

Are you intentionally being a retard to troll us, or is that just how you are Damned Registrations ?

 

[dunno lah]

Sounds a little like how some people around me ask, "You mind if I smoke?", and you respond, "Yeah, go ahead."... It should be "no", but people accept it as it is without caring about the error.

 

[Karellen]

Guys, the thing with Laurentius is a joke. It's a developer gag made specifically to mess with people who only constantly say "yes" to everything without actually listening, reading or thinking about what their responses mean. It's also a really silly thing to whine about, because if you do "accidentally" refuse, you can just talk to him again and he'll renew the offer, so it's not like you miss anything - actually, if you're the sort of person who cares about getting all of the story from the game, in the extra dialogue it becomes apparent that Laurentius is such a total bro that he'll want to teach his Pyromancy to you even after you've spat in his eye.

When it comes to the "obscurantism" in Dark Souls, I think it's important to distinguish between bad design and bad implementation. To a large extent, the ability to miss things and mess up is precisely the way Dark Souls should be, but having said that, some of the NPC interaction is oddly haphazard. For instance, there is actually quite a lot of NPC dialogue from the gang at Firelink which would help the player a lot, except that quite a bit of it is triggered by events at times when the player has little incentive to visit Firelink - the hint you get from Lautrec about Petrus' true intentions is one of those, you have to visit Firelink at a very precise moment and you miss it if you proceed beyond it. The problem isn't that it's hidden, but that the only way to find it is to assume a playstyle which makes no sense and that the game doesn't really encourage the player to pick.

Later in the game, too, some NPCs move about the place in a fashion that I'm going to call "haphazard", and you find them in places that you have little incenteive to revisit. I wouldn't mind if the game was a bit more clear as to "where" the player ought to look for them and when. The failure paths for the NPC quests are great, but they're basically wasted if the player never gets that far. Having little extras would be nice, but often missing one scene will result in the whole path being lost. For instance, the whole thing with Dusk and the way it leads to the expansion is all pretty great, except for the part where you need to reload the game after killing the Hydra to actually see the Golden Crystal Golem, which is ridiculous, and basically a technical oversight in the way DS spawns enemies. The problem is that missing this one part would more than likely dislodge the entire quest path and make it impossible for the player to proceed, with no idea as to why. Having ways to screw up is important for the Dark Souls ethos, but even fans should agree that there are ways to refine this and make it more legible without messing up the sense of oppression and despair.

 

[Ninjerk]

Guys, the thing with Laurentius is a joke. It's a developer gag made specifically to mess with people who only constantly say "yes" to everything without actually listening, reading or thinking about what their responses mean. It's also a really silly thing to whine about, because if you do "accidentally" refuse, you can just talk to him again and he'll renew the offer, so it's not like you miss anything - actually, if you're the sort of person who cares about getting all of the story from the game, in the extra dialogue it becomes apparent that Laurentius is such a total bro that he'll want to teach his Pyromancy to you even after you've spat in his eye.

Solaire does the same thing with the White Soapstone, except you can't get it if you talk to him again.

 

[Kanedias]

Hm? You can still get it...

 

[Ninjerk]

Hm? You can still get it...

I seem to remember feeling screwed after I answered him, maybe I was wrong.

 

[Akratus]

Do any of the multiplayer items do anything if you're not playing online? Can you summon npc's at all?

 

[Servo]

I had to re-read the last page or so because some of this discussion went over my head the first time, and I was still recoiling from being told that I spoiled the game for someone else.

Why isn't it fine to miss stuff permanently? Because your Asperger's can't handle it? I mean, it's fine if you want to make the game less fun for yourself by checking everything on a wiki, but don't act like it's inherently bad design.

As a matter of fact, a lot of the "permanently missable" stuff fits DS' themes perfectly, like Solaire's story for example.

Damn right it drives my Asperger's insane.

Point isn't really that it can be missed. Point is that it can be missed and not found later through further exploration. That is the only proper way to do it if you insist on having the game last longer than a number of hours you can count with one hand.

Being able to permanently miss things is definite incline. Like SerratedBiz said:

But gameplay "failstates" are valid. Why wouldn't they be? In most cases they make exploration, your gameplay choices and your knowledge of the game significant. DS is all about those.

So to you Biz, even though you're a dick.

What I have a problem with is when people say that missing said permanently missable things makes you retarded and/or horrible at games, or that it's easy to get everything you need to OHKO bosses on your first playthrough without a wiki/guide. That's pure bullshit. Magic is only OP if you make it that way by bee-lining to Dusk. And nobody does that without reading about it first. Plus, the game throws you in plenty of situations where ranged combat is impossible so that argument for magic is stupid too.

I'm really close to beating the game with my melee character now. Like I said, certain situations are definitely easier with spells but others are hilariously easy without them. I'm one-shotting the darkwraiths in New Londo and taking out the drakes with 4-5 hits. This part of the game was painfully difficult for my sorcerer without dark magic.

Totally agree with Edward here:

Strange that more spells weren't found loot ( like Power Within and a few others were), because that would pretty much solve all the issues; you'd be acquiring spells at a more even rate and less attentive players wouldn't be hit with a walloping punishment (often undeserved) if they miss the "spell dispenser" NPC.

Oh and Solaire's story is fucking awesome so to CowboyMoment, although what you said here makes no sense:

Point isn't really that it can be missed. Point is that it can be missed and not found later through further exploration. That is the only proper way to do it if you insist on having the game last longer than a number of hours you can count with one hand.

So what? Why is it bad to have this? As long as missing stuff doesn't interfere with your progression in a major way (which it doesn't in DS, save for a few exceptions which are rightfully criticized), I don't see any argument in your posts thus far, save for "it offends my OCD so it needs to go".

It's you who's making the Bethsoft fanboy argument here. Almost verbatim, as a matter of fact.

Nonsense. Biofags do not criticize their own franchise. The fact that we can argue about the merits of a game we all love just points to the fact that it's a great game.

 

[Servo]

very yes

What is very yes about this? Just some bro and his buddy ganking up on ppl...

I can't into YouTube videos of PVP unless they are hilarious.

 

[Kanedias]

Hm? You can still get it...

I seem to remember feeling screwed after I answered him, maybe I was wrong.

Yes, you cannot permanently miss that soapstone by saying no to him.


Eingyi was silly, though. If you say that you aren't a new servant you need to quit and reload to trigger the same dialogue again, otherwise he won't move. It's quite non intuitive and has driven many people to kill him in order to access the bonfire.

 

[Servo]

Eingyi was silly, though. If you say that you aren't a new servant you need to quit and reload to trigger the same dialogue again, otherwise he won't move. It's quite non intuitive and has driven many people to kill him in order to access the bonfire.

Pretty sure you can try again after beating Ceaseless Discharge. If not right after that fight, at some point later in the game for sure because I screwed it up at first too.

Edit: DS just went on sale for $5.99 on Steam. This would be more cost efficient for me than paying $15 to access the DLC, but I really hate Steam right now and probably don't want to start another NG anyways. What do? Is the DLC even worth it (overpowered spells aside)?

 

[LivingOne]

^The bosses are the best in the game after O&S.As for the dungeons:the first one is a reworked darkroot garden+basin in the past,the other two resemble the undead burg(but a bit more linear)and the tomb of the giants(but not as dark as to need a source of light;it's also a bit shorter)respectivly.Most of the regular mobs aren't anything special but the stone giants and the dark sorcerers are quite intresting.

Ihmo it's worth 5,99,especially considering you can keep playing the PC version and don't have to be concerned with backward compatibility/having an old console still working.

 

[Servo]

backward compatibility/having an old console still working.

This is my biggest concern with collecting games for PS3. Damn silly modern consoles. I can still play my NES, Gameboy, N64, etc. but I can't play New Super Mario Bros. U until the system updates for an hour and I register an avatar.

Although you can't be sure about PC games always working either as drivers and hardware change. Plus Steam will probably start charging a monthly fee soon to access your games. It's the way of the future.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Is the DLC even worth it (overpowered spells aside)?

The DLC boss fights are probably the highlight of the add-on content. Any given person's "Top 5 Bosses in Dark Souls" is likely to have two or more plucked from the extra content. None of them are gimmick fights (like Ceaseless Discharge or Bed of Chaos) and they're all tougher than the average boss in the original game content. Plus, one of them is a decent

The areas themselves don't shine so lustrously, though.

The Royal Wood and the Abyss seem like a bit of rush jobs, even though the flavor behind the former somewhat justifies the rehashing of content. I don't want to "spoil" the realization too much though...FROM was pretty clever here. Even the enemies play into the theme. The foes in this area are new, but familiar...if that makes any sense.

Chasm of the Abyss, on the other hand, comes off as a cheap Tomb of the Giants knockoff; another dark cave, except this one lacks enemy variety, is far smaller in scope, and simply isn't as lovingly designed as the area from which CotA draws heavily from. There is a nifty easter-egg/secret built in to the level (and how it can connect back to the main game is impressive), but not much else really elevates it. Well, besides the fact that it can be mercifully brief (the boss here is a wee bit tricky) and, hey, humanity farming was never so easy.

Oolacile Township is the most sizeable area and offers a bunch of hidden paths and niches to the diligent explorer. Unfortunately, it too is hobbled by the lack of enemy variety; there's two kinds of baddies and a mini-boss who only appears once (unless you are Gravelord'd). The concept of descending from the rooftops of a fallen city to the lower reaches is interesting; kind of like a twist on the Undead Burg. But a simple melee foe and a corrupted sorcerer, while lethal enough, don't provide the variety that the better areas in the main game delivered.

Items are pretty decent in the DLC, though some of the spell additions are stupidly good. There are some cool-looking armor sets (including a light armor set with a modicum of poise), a couple new special souls to craft weapons, and some nifty weapons (such as the dagger set with unique off-hand movesets/traits). I was personally let down by the lack of any new Miracles or anything really aimed at Faith builds as just about every other build received some treats.

All in all, it's certainly worth playing, but 15 KWABUX may be a bit steep unless you feel like donating* your judengeld to FROM and/or sending a message to their publishers that these types of games can make a tidy profit.

*I assume the margins on DLC are a lot higher than the base game.

 

[LivingOne]

backward compatibility/having an old console still working.

This is my biggest concern with collecting games for PS3. Damn silly modern consoles. I can still play my NES, Gameboy, N64, etc. but I can't play New Super Mario Bros. U until the system updates for an hour and I register an avatar.

Although you can't be sure about PC games always working either as drivers and hardware change. Plus Steam will probably start charging a monthly fee soon to access your games. It's the way of the future.

True that but at least on Pc there are workarounds usually...

 

[praetor]

Pretty sure you can try again after beating Ceaseless Discharge. If not right after that fight, at some point later in the game for sure because I screwed it up at first too.

yup. you can just go to the nearest bonfire and return to him and he'll answer the question again (happened to me plenty of times )

 

[LivingOne]

 

[Newfag-er]

I didn't find out about my favorite faction/npc till about 4-5 playthough, yet I don't complain. It actually was that much better when I find out this npc, and the information it shares finally piece together the better part of the theme of this game.

The problems with dialog mentioned here has been happening since Demon Souls. Personally I don't think it would hurt them if they give us more exact dialog choices either, but I think this is really a developer thing.

My personal suggestion is that anybody who finds Dark Souls convoluted should attempt Demon Souls, from what I've played it's far more straightforward and is closer in sense to that of a traditional Japanese rpg. (closer, but still pretty different. And it's still hard, harder even)

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Point isn't really that it can be missed. Point is that it can be missed and not found later through further exploration. That is the only proper way to do it if you insist on having the game last longer than a number of hours you can count with one hand.

So what? Why is it bad to have this? As long as missing stuff doesn't interfere with your progression in a major way (which it doesn't in DS, save for a few exceptions which are rightfully criticized), I don't see any argument in your posts thus far, save for "it offends my OCD so it needs to go".

It's you who's making the Bethsoft fanboy argument here. Almost verbatim, as a matter of fact.

Nonsense. Biofags do not criticize their own franchise. The fact that we can argue about the merits of a game we all love just points to the fact that it's a great game.

Huh? What are you even talking about?

I said Vaarna is acting like a Bethesda fanboy, because it's them who typically want a game to be a theme park where they can access all the content at any time. This is also how post-Morrowind Bethesda games are all designed.

 

[Servo]

Huh? What are you even talking about?

I said Vaarna is acting like a Bethesda fanboy, because it's them who typically want a game to be a theme park where they can access all the content at any time. This is also how post-Morrowind Bethesda games are all designed.

I thought the Bethsoft fanboy argument was "durrrrr this game is teh awesome hawtest chicks evar derp derp." But that's Biofags so sorry. I get them mixed up.