From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Silva]

 

[Lyric Suite]

None of the DLC bosses are good with shield. It's all learning their attack patterns and rolling.

His dark bead attack shoots in all directions and I didn't know you could ninja roll through it or about the pendant. You can only block if you can't roll out of it.

Except you can't block it. Well, maybe if you have a great shield. I guess an Havel monster may be able to take it but my medium build was fucked. Not fast enough to roll out of the attack, not strong enough to block it.

 

[Jokzore]

Manus, Kalameet and Artorias are all trivial with a greatshield. If you wanna breeze through the game with almost no challenge, stability is king.

 

[sullynathan]

Wow, last boss was a bit of a push over compared to the ones from the DLC. Took me forever to kill Kalameet but the last boss had way less health and i was able to instantly cheese it by circling around some rocks lmao, wasn't even trying to cheat the boss just wanted to check out his move set but as soon as i saw how quickly his health was going down i figured fuck it, let's get it over with.

Kalameet is one of the hardest bosses in the Original Dark Souls. Four Kings in NG++ is the only harder boss.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think they should have buffed the last boss in lieu of the DLC, or maybe make the DLC something that you are send to after finishing the main game, as an interlude before NG+.

Then again, this has been an issue with expansions for RPGs for as long as i can remember. They always seem to brake the base game in some way, either by trivializing the final content or by taking the wind out of the main plot.

 

[vortex]

Kalameet is one of the hardest bosses in the Original Dark Souls. Four Kings in NG++ is the only harder boss.

Kalameet has long learning curve but it's not hard when you get his moves. The hardest part is to cut his tail for Obsidian.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The fact he has a massive health pool but the fight has random instant death hit box shenanigans is what makes the fight frustrating. It's an endurance test and you never know if you are going to fuck up or if the game is going to fuck you over with the aforementioned hit box crap.

 

[Wunderbar]

I think they should have buffed the last boss in lieu of the DLC

Gwyn is a husk, a shadow of his former self. He's not supposed to be super hard to kill.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think they should have buffed the last boss in lieu of the DLC

Gwyn is a husk, a shadow of his former self. He's not supposed to be super hard to kill.

No, sorry, i'm not buying this kind of rationalizations for a second.

 

[Wunderbar]

I think they should have buffed the last boss in lieu of the DLC

Gwyn is a husk, a shadow of his former self. He's not supposed to be super hard to kill.

No, sorry, i'm not buying this kind of rationalizations for a second.

Demon's souls final boss

 

[sullynathan]

I think they should have buffed the last boss in lieu of the DLC, or maybe make the DLC something that you are send to after finishing the main game, as an interlude before NG+.

Then again, this has been an issue with expansions for RPGs for as long as i can remember. They always seem to brake the base game in some way, either by trivializing the final content or by taking the wind out of the main plot.

You can play Dark Souls 2 & 3's DLC whenever you want like after beating the game, so it isn't a problem there.

 

[Jokzore]

Kalameets tail is the true end boss.

 

[Curratum]

No, sorry, i'm not buying this kind of rationalizations for a second.

That's because you, too, are a soulless husk who is only interested in mechanics and numbers, like most of the drones on this forum.

 

[toro]

Manus, Kalameet and Artorias are all trivial with a greatshield. If you wanna breeze through the game with almost no challenge, stability is king.

Yeah but the shame is eternal

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think there's a flaw in the system somewhere in there. You want an action game that's based on twitch skill, muscle memory and trial and error and you also want an RPG and the latter can only go so far before it invalidates the first. I haven't played From's new games but it seems there's a push in there for a system that is all about timing and obviously that begs the question of where to put "traditional" RPG builds, like the tanks, or the spell casters etc.

 

[Curratum]

I think there's a flaw in the system somewhere in there. You want an action game that's based on twitch skill, muscle memory and trial and error and you also want an RPG and the latter can only go so far before it invalidates the first. I haven't played From's new games but it seems there's a push in there for a system that is all about timing and obviously that begs the question of where to put "traditional" RPG builds, like the tanks, or the spell casters etc.

You can't make a tank in DS3 or Sekiro. Spell casters are mostly a massive headache.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Right, precisely what i was noticing. The RPG factor had to be pushed further away to make room for a more involved twitch factor.

 

[Silva]

You can't make a tank in DS3 or Sekiro. Spell casters are mostly a massive headache.

Neither Bloodborne.

Lyric Suite point is spot-on. FROM's taking the twitch path made the games less prone to cheesiness, resulting in a pool of builds that's smaller but that really speaks to the games mechanics, without bypassing or sidestepping them.

Playing Sekiro for 1st time now and it's the epitome of this. There's no spells or greatshields to hide behind here. You get gud or you drop the game.

 

[toro]

You can't make a tank in DS3 or Sekiro. Spell casters are mostly a massive headache.

Neither Bloodborne.

No shit. I always tank Pontiff and most idiots in PvP.

 

[Curratum]

So I'm playing DS1 properly / fully for the first time, because I only recently bought the remaster and the PC controls of Prepare to Die were so bad, I gave up before the iron golem in Sen's.

I just got to the Bed of Chaos, just a few minutes ago, and realized something. All the fat, balding, sweaty neckbeards people who whine about DS2 being bad and / or having bad bosses can go fuck themselves.

DS1 has the same boss model THREE TIMES.
Capra Demon is terrible.
Ceaseless Discharge is a puzzle gimmick boss.
Centipede Demon is a joke fight.
Pinwheel is a joke fight.
Seath is a joke fight.
Moonlight Butterfly is just annoying and tedious.
Four Kings were a pretty stupid DPS race that relies primarily on the +X of your weapon and/or obscure cheese only abovementioned neckbeards people would know.
Bed of Chaos is the cherry on top.

So, how many decent to great bosses are we left with, exactly, because I'm sure that's at least half the game's named healthbar bosses...

Don't get me wrong, I love the superior art and visual direction of 1 and the connectedless and level / location / setpiece design as much as the next neckbeard person, but please, go drink a cup of bleach if you think DS1 has superior or better boss encounters than the other games, especially 2, which everyone is so quick to dismiss.

 

[sullynathan]

I think there's a flaw in the system somewhere in there. You want an action game that's based on twitch skill, muscle memory and trial and error and you also want an RPG and the latter can only go so far before it invalidates the first. I haven't played From's new games but it seems there's a push in there for a system that is all about timing and obviously that begs the question of where to put "traditional" RPG builds, like the tanks, or the spell casters etc.

It's much easier and better to make a good rewarding action game with good combat than an rpg that has good combat. FROM understood this and has been going far more into the actio route (BB, DS3, Sekiro) that Sekiro is an action game, no rpg elements.

So, how many decent to great bosses are we left with, exactly, because I'm sure that's at least half the game's named healthbar bosses...

• Chaos Witch Quelaag
• Ornstein and Smough
• Artorias the Abysswalker
• Manus, Father of the Abyss
• Sanctuary Guardian
• Bell Gargoyles
• Black Dragon Kalameet

Which is actually more than Souls 2 when Souls 2 has a far larger boss count

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's much easier and better to make a good rewarding action game with good combat than an rpg that has good combat.

Easier obviously. Better? So what was the point of the Souls games? Might as well have ditched the RPG elements and gone full twitch action.

I mean, sure, the git gud people may be happy but now we are dealing with a completely different genre, and i'm not sure i like that. Surely, there must have been ways to improve the pitfalls of the Souls games, right? You could have thrown things at the player that may have been difficult to deal with for some builds, but not others, and vice versa, assuring there were no cheese paths AND making the experience unique according to the way the player chooses to progress the character. Going full twitch seems like an easy cope out to me. Can't fully integrate RPG elements with the twitch elements? Just forget about the RPG elements and make yet another twitch console game! Because there certainly aren't enough of those in the console world. Ho wait, that's like 99% of that stuff that's in there.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So I'm playing DS1 properly / fully for the first time, because I only recently bought the remaster and the PC controls of Prepare to Die were so bad, I gave up before the iron golem in Sen's.

I just got to the Bed of Chaos, just a few minutes ago, and realized something. All the fat, balding, sweaty neckbeards people who whine about DS2 being bad and / or having bad bosses can go fuck themselves.

DS1 has the same boss model THREE TIMES.
Capra Demon is terrible.
Ceaseless Discharge is a puzzle gimmick boss.
Centipede Demon is a joke fight.
Pinwheel is a joke fight.
Seath is a joke fight.
Moonlight Butterfly is just annoying and tedious.
Four Kings were a pretty stupid DPS race that relies primarily on the +X of your weapon and/or obscure cheese only abovementioned neckbeards people would know.
Bed of Chaos is the cherry on top.

So, how many decent to great bosses are we left with, exactly, because I'm sure that's at least half the game's named healthbar bosses...

Don't get me wrong, I love the superior art and visual direction of 1 and the connectedless and level / location / setpiece design as much as the next neckbeard person, but please, go drink a cup of bleach if you think DS1 has superior or better boss encounters than the other games, especially 2, which everyone is so quick to dismiss.

Sorry, but most of the bosses you listed are still more interesting than anything in DS2. Some of the ones you mentioned have environmental set ups that already put them above anything from DS2. Even Bed of Chaos, as annoying as it is, is still more interesting just by being something else from yet another mob you have to fight in a circular room which describes 99% of the bosses in DS2.

Besides, i can already tell you are cheesing some of the fights and calling them lame. Like the four kings. There's a way to get through them that doesn't require you maxing out your damage output by learning their moves and gitting gud but you decide to brute force your way through them and that's sad. Wonder how you'll deal with them on the higher difficult settings, where your damage output plateaus and you can't cheese them anymore.

 

[Silverfish]

You can't make a tank in DS3 or Sekiro. Spell casters are mostly a massive headache.

DS3 might be the most generous game in the series for tanking, since you can stack various means of health regeneration. Slap a blessed gem on an off-hand item, wear the sun princess ring, and cast replenishment or blessed weapon spells when needed.

 

[sullynathan]

It's much easier and better to make a good rewarding action game with good combat than an rpg that has good combat.

Easier obviously. Better? So what was the point of the Souls games? Might as well have ditched the RPG elements and gone full twitch action.

I mean, sure, the git gud people may be happy but now we are dealing with a completely different genre, and i'm not sure i like that. Surely, there must have been ways to improve the pitfalls of the Souls games, right? You could have thrown things at the player that may have been difficult to deal with for some builds, but not others, and vice versa, assuring there were no cheese paths AND making the experience unique according to the way the player chooses to progress the character. Going full twitch seems like an easy cope out to me. Can't fully integrate RPG elements with the twitch elements? Just forget about the RPG elements and make yet another twitch console game! Because there certainly aren't enough of those in the console world. Ho wait, that's like 99% of that stuff that's in there.

I believe my point is that they really did want to make action games but already had a history of rpgs and put that there too. It's why they ended up just making action games.

I don't think they have the necessary skill to make the exact high level twitch DMC or Bayonetta style action game that some might expect, but games like these are more rare these days than two generations ago and I believe FROM sees that and doesn't think action games are inferior to action rpgs.

I'd say the best way to see "improvements" in the supposed pitfalls of souls games is to experience how other devs have tackled this formula. Nioh is very similar to souls that leans into the direction of being a stronger action game while having even more robust rpg mechanics.