From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[Elwro]

A bit weird, but I have to say there's something to it (from RPGWatch): http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2014/04/25/is-dark-souls-ii-the-worst-game-ever-made/

 

[Kanedias]

Does the DaS1 phenomenon that got called a "dead angle" hit (why did they copy completely unrelated Guilty Gear terminology?) still happen? I thought that glitch was a big tipoff about their MMORPG style netcode because they can't actually maintain proper hitbox collisions.

Edit - if you don't know what I'm talking about, the essence of it is that when you hit another player in PvP (this may happen to some degree in coop against monsters, too) the game compares the angle of rotation of both players to see if the player that's struck is able to block the attack. Normally this does stuff like make it so if you hit someone in the back while they are facing in the other direction with their shield up, the game knows to let the attack go unguarded. But because of the hitbox-agnostic way they implemented it, this also has the rather insane side-effect that you can hit someone through their guard if you are facing away from them; e.g. if you run up to someone that's guarding, turn around, and do a 360 degree attack like Wrath of God, it will ignore their shield.

Dead angles are either removed or very hard to do. I didn't try something like WoG yet (still farming blue orbs) but with melee attacks they do not work (unless you hit their side/back for real, that is)

--

More Syan's Halberd goodness: turns out the 2h r1 is simply unparryable. I have tested it, and it is true. Usually ultra weapons have unparryable 2h r1s, but I didn't think this would apply to the Syan's Halberd. Excellent to deal with backstep/roll parriers.

 

[AngryEddy]

A bit weird, but I have to say there's something to it (from RPGWatch): http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2014/04/25/is-dark-souls-ii-the-worst-game-ever-made/

There are a million reasons to hate Dark Souls 2, that fucking retard doesn't list any of them. Here's an excerpt from this nimrod's article:

The Excrement of Action

Released this week for PCs, Dark Souls II is the sequel to what I have long thought of as the worst game ever made, a work that demonstrated how and why videogames could become, to paraphrase Jeanette Winterson, the excrement of action, an elaborate network of interrelated parts oriented around an end goal of staggering waste. Like its predecessor, Dark Souls II is an open world combat game offering players a seemingly infinite variety of ways to do the same thing over and over again. You can kill with a sword, or magic spells, or giant clubs, or spears infused with fire. You can kill by striking first, or using a shield to block and then counter, or wear no armor and agilely roll beneath your enemy’s attacks then hit them from behind. But in every case you can only drain the fixed number of health points each enemy has, wiping them from the world, removing them from your path so you can move further along, where you can try another variation on the same basic idea.


The game only teaches players about itself. The amount of time and effort spent in learning its lessons is dramatically outweighed by the significance of having that knowledge. What good does it do me to know that Intelligence scaling for magic users becomes half as effective after level 40? What have I learned by knowing that The Rotten’s overhand smash attack can be dodged by rolling directly into it, or that his offhand sweep attack will automatically cause damage even when your character is several feet away.

I read the entire article, and don't really feel like pointing out why this guy is a stupid asshole, when these paragraphs sum him up perfectly. Just the way this guy tries to use big words, and little hip catchphrases really makes me hate him. Hey fucko, it's a videogame, not the Bible.

Also, Dark Souls 2 is still a terrible game.

 

[Elwro]

Not that it's particularly on topic, but if someone hasn't read this, he's a nice text by someone who gets what the game's about: http://kotaku.com/5874599/what-dark-souls-is-really-all-about

Sen's Fortress has changed from an out-of-the-way building, to the next step in your quest, to a nigh-insurmountable challenge, to an old friend.

 

[praetor]

Watcher/Defender seem pretty good from my few attempts. Their presentation is terrible, they're not intimidating at all, Defender has an extremely dull moveset, and the music is very forgettable. But the fight itself is quite fun, like a much more technical O&S.

would you care to elaborate on this? because, unless i'm misunderstanding what "more technical" means, i strongly disagree. O&S complement each other, they have diverse movesets and phase 2 of the fight has 2 possible scenarios, while TD&TW are bigger sized regular sword&board mooks who have more health and damage, with a simple sword&board moveset and next to no threatening attack (only D's sword impale, which suffers from the same wonky hitbox problems as every other grab attack in DaS2), not too different one from the other (W is slightly faster and has less health... that's about it), but overall they're a really simple fight where the only difference between phase 1 & 2 is they deal slightly more damage (and D drops his shield iirc), kinda like Smough 2.0 if you let kill him last, except easier. the only slightly challenging part of the boss here is when they both have their shield up so you have to have a bit of patience, but you already dealt with similar scenarios in the game before (particularly the sentinels who arguably have a more diverse and challenging moveset), so it's pretty much just them having a bit more health. in my opinion, they're a more boring version of O&S (kinda reflected by the kill/death stats on farfire... really, really low for a late game boss)

 

[Kanedias]

I agree with praetor on this.

This is (surprisingly) one of my least favorite bosses of Dark Souls II, because I do not like how the difficulty is.

Ornstein and Smough were enemies with more telegraphed yet more interesting attacks, they were always attacking, and their movesets and overall behavior were very different. This also gave them more personality, so to speak. They were also hard to block, at least, harder than most other bosses.

Watcher and Defender have very similar movesets, and they do not use their special attacks very often (like Watcher's Wrath of the Gods). They spend most of the time walking towards you and their attacks are (almost) always uninteresting fast swings. Several of their attacks are quite hard to dodge (especially if you want to get attacks in) but they are very easy to block, even with an unupgraded shield, and they do not have that much HP. In the O&S fight, I found myself dodging all the time while trying to find windows to attack one of them, in the case of Watcher and Defender I usually find myself walking backwards with my shield raised and throwing very safe attacks at the end of their combos. They seem to encourage this boring style of play.

Ironically I think the best dual fight in this game is double Pursuers, but that's not even a boss fight. It's a shame, really, it would be nice to have them replacing the dual Dragonriders.

Flexile Sentry + the two Suspicious Shadows is also an amazing fight, but it was sad to see that they overnerfed the Shadow's HP. They now die in like 2-3 hits, which is a shame. They really complimented Flexile's weaknesses and made the fight last longer which made the water element more noticeable.

 

[praetor]

I agree with praetor on this.

This is (surprisingly) one of my least favorite bosses of Dark Souls II, because I do not like how the difficulty is.

Ornstein and Smough were enemies with more telegraphed yet more interesting attacks, they were always attacking, and their movesets and overall behavior were very different. This also gave them more personality, so to speak. They were also hard to block, at least, harder than most other bosses.

Watcher and Defender have very similar movesets, and they do not use their special attacks very often (like Watcher's Wrath of the Gods). They spend most of the time walking towards you and their attacks are (almost) always uninteresting fast swings. Several of their attacks are quite hard to dodge (especially if you want to get attacks in) but they are very easy to block, even with an unupgraded shield, and they do not have that much HP. In the O&S fight, I found myself dodging all the time while trying to find windows to attack one of them, in the case of Watcher and Defender I usually find myself walking backwards with my shield raised and throwing very safe attacks at the end of their combos. They seem to encourage this boring style of play.

Ironically I think the best dual fight in this game is double Pursuers, but that's not even a boss fight. It's a shame, really, it would be nice to have them replacing the dual Dragonriders.

Flexile Sentry + the two Suspicious Shadows is also an amazing fight, but it was sad to see that they overnerfed the Shadow's HP. They now die in like 2-3 hits, which is a shame. They really complimented Flexile's weaknesses and made the fight last longer which made the water element more noticeable.

agreed on everything except replacing dual derpers with dual Pursuers... yes, it's infinitely more challenging and interesting (i think it's the most difficult fight in the game if you don't know how to parry them... and i don't and never tried :D), but as a mandatory boss half way through the game? hell no something more interesting (O&S v2.0 ) would've been better, with dragonderpers serving as regular enemies in the castle (and a bigger castle...). they would've been much more fitting enemies than the rather jarring Alonne captains. anyway, it's a pity there aren't any fights in DaS2 like O&S, other than, in a similar but not quite the same kind of way, Flexile and Sinner NG+ with the adds (but i still think Sinner with added ranged pyro moves instead of adds would've been better)

P.S.: Watcher has a WoG attack? never saw it, neither solo nor in the dozens (if not hundreds) of times co-oping them . like a combo the Pursuer does, when he does 2 pokes behind the shield and then a vertical smash (i've only seen it in a video). way too many attacks are way too rare

 

[Kuhrazy]

A bit weird, but I have to say there's something to it (from RPGWatch): http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2014/04/25/is-dark-souls-ii-the-worst-game-ever-made/

I was waiting for him to namedrop Baudrillard, and then it came.

Did he like Gone Home?

 

[Damned Registrations]

Aside from attacks being rare, people tend to fight using only a very specific strategy, which basically forces the AI into using the same set of attacks over and over. You think the bosses are dull, imagine a boss that did nothing but strafe to your right while blocking and countered with a single quick attack every time you used a heavy attack. Pretty much what players do.

 

[Random]

A bit weird, but I have to say there's something to it (from RPGWatch): http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2014/04/25/is-dark-souls-ii-the-worst-game-ever-made/

My god, it's like a biodrone grew up and went to college.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

But then, sometimes he'll actually move in the air before breathing fire, which is impossible to anticipate as far as I know.

You have to stay in front of him and then you can anticipate all his moves. It's a contra-intuitive boss like Sif: in that case you had to rush him always, in this case you have to bait him (by standing right in front of his nose).

Also, the ancient dragon is not so stupid: from the air he can breath fire under him, in front of him and on long range. But once you learn his pattern, is quite easy. I beat him naked with a BKH. He drops an Giant soul.

Bed of Chaos was not optional that's why the comparison doesn't stand.

Ok. I stand in front of him. He flies up. How do I know where he's going to breathe fire?

Watcher/Defender seem pretty good from my few attempts. Their presentation is terrible, they're not intimidating at all, Defender has an extremely dull moveset, and the music is very forgettable. But the fight itself is quite fun, like a much more technical O&S.

would you care to elaborate on this? because, unless i'm misunderstanding what "more technical" means, i strongly disagree. O&S complement each other, they have diverse movesets and phase 2 of the fight has 2 possible scenarios, while TD&TW are bigger sized regular sword&board mooks who have more health and damage, with a simple sword&board moveset and next to no threatening attack (only D's sword impale, which suffers from the same wonky hitbox problems as every other grab attack in DaS2), not too different one from the other (W is slightly faster and has less health... that's about it), but overall they're a really simple fight where the only difference between phase 1 & 2 is they deal slightly more damage (and D drops his shield iirc), kinda like Smough 2.0 if you let kill him last, except easier. the only slightly challenging part of the boss here is when they both have their shield up so you have to have a bit of patience, but you already dealt with similar scenarios in the game before (particularly the sentinels who arguably have a more diverse and challenging moveset), so it's pretty much just them having a bit more health. in my opinion, they're a more boring version of O&S (kinda reflected by the kill/death stats on farfire... really, really low for a late game boss)

By "technical", I meant the same thing as Kanedias listed when he complained about them having a boring kind of difficulty. Like, they don't really have any "big" attacks (well, they actually do, but never seem to use them), and you can't bruteforce the fight by zerging one of them down like you could with Smough, so you're basically forced to play their game, look for safe openings, and damage them equally (like 90% of the difficulty comes from having to attack Defender with Watcher around). They also have nice (if assholish) AI - they follow up on each other's combos a lot, and Watcher does things which I interpret as intentional attempts at flanking.

In hindsight though, I liked it more at the time than it really deserves, because I tried it after hours of Ancient Dragon and Vendrick, and was simply happy to not have to deal with obscure OHKO bullshit with weird hitboxes. If I died, I knew exactly how and why. I do agree that it's way too easy to block the fight to death, and I was quite shocked that their "buffed" swords didn't do any kind of elemental/magic damage (which would've made blocking much riskier).

Anyway, Nashandra is a sad joke. It's nice that she puts stuff around the arena which forces the player to be more aware of their surroundings, but she absolutely lacks the moveset the force the player to move anywhere, so it makes no difference. Even Rotten does the same thing much better, as he actually has some moves that either force or strongly encourage you to disengage (possibly into fire).

Time for Abyss covenant and then Darklurker.

P.S.: Watcher has a WoG attack? never saw it, neither solo nor in the dozens (if not hundreds) of times co-oping them . like a combo the Pursuer does, when he does 2 pokes behind the shield and then a vertical smash (i've only seen it in a video). way too many attacks are way too rare

Yeah, this is a weird problem a lot of the bosses seem to suffer from. Like, for instance, The Ruin Sentinel shield throw is pretty cool in a lot of ways - it's unblockable, one of the few ranged threats they have, and it makes the sentinel vulnerable until they can retrieve the shield. But they almost never use it, for reasons which I struggle to understand.

Maybe it's supposed to be a cheap "gotcha!" thing, where you fight a boss a few times and get used to all the moves, and then they suddenly pull out something rare to fuck you up. That would be absolutely retarded though. However, Ancient Dragon actually has a "fast" version of his stomp which he rarely uses, so maybe...

 

[Kanedias]

Dark Souls always had the same issue with super rare moves but it's more apparent in this game. For example, how many of you know that the Centipede Demon could jump back and start shooting fireballs out of its many mouths? This game seems to have way more rare attacks, though.

For example, you can fight Pursuer several times and think he only has that 3 hit combo, the dash attack and the curse stab, but he can

1) do a single shield bash
2) shoot a magic projectile
3) shoot a Pursuers-like spell, this attack can only be used once he has cursed you
4) double stab into jumping attack

and probably more moves that I forget at the moment. In total he has a huge number of moves, but he always falls into the same patterns.

Demon of Song is another one of these bosses with a lot of moves he never uses. He has at least two different attacks where he shoots water projectiles, he has a surprising 5-hit combo, he has an attack where he jumps back and charges you, and he has melee attacks that he does with his frog limbs without even opening.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Wait, Demon of Song has an attack he can use without opening his "mouth"?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I'd seen Pursuer use all but #3 on your list, then again he only succesfully cursed me in the tag team fight (also where I first saw the magic projectile).

 

[Damned Registrations]

Has anyone fought these guys with lots of NG+ levels? Does it change the AI so they use different attacks?

 

[Kanedias]

Wait, Demon of Song has an attack he can use without opening his "mouth"?

Yes, if I recall there's two, an attack with his back legs and another with his short front ones.

Oh, just remembered another rare attack: Vendrick can shoot a red magic projectile that does high damage and curses you.

---

Something else: I never noticed that the Drakekeeper's Helmet is based on Gough's. Ironic.

 

[Gozma]

Dark Souls always had the same issue with super rare moves but it's more apparent in this game. For example, how many of you know that the Centipede Demon could jump back and start shooting fireballs out of its many mouths? This game seems to have way more rare attacks, though.

I think this happens because they only use particular attacks at certain range bands, certain angles (e.g. player is standing on right flank, etc.), and against certain player states (e.g. in long recovery, back turned, holding shield up for a long time, etc.) that the fight logic rarely generates. I think they probably give a boss a full moveset, then iteratively tune it and some moves get pushed into small niches.

 

[80Maxwell08]

No idea what triggers the pursuer's magic move but god it's annoying as all hell. I fought him once (on the first opprotunity area) and he spammed the ever loving hell out of it. Also it's absurdly hard to dodge and I got hit every time.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Dark Souls always had the same issue with super rare moves but it's more apparent in this game. For example, how many of you know that the Centipede Demon could jump back and start shooting fireballs out of its many mouths? This game seems to have way more rare attacks, though.

I think this happens because they only use particular attacks at certain range bands, certain angles (e.g. player is standing on right flank, etc.), and against certain player states (e.g. in long recovery, back turned, holding shield up for a long time, etc.) that the fight logic rarely generates. I think they probably give a boss a full moveset, then iteratively tune it and some moves get pushed into small niches.

I can also imagine them making an AI pattern as the default with the intention of tweaking it for higher difficulties on NG+, but never actually getting around to implementing that part.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Killed Darklurker. Weird boss, albeit very fun to fight. Seems like something out of Ninja Gaiden or DMC with all the projectiles and lasers he throws around. Wasn't that hard though - everything he does can be dodged by just running around (including the projectiles those dark orbs fire), and he's fairly harmless in melee, which makes it easy to just nuke him in the right situations. What I really like about him is how, after splitting, he can pressure the player without really having any oneshot attacks. It feels like you're constantly in danger, because of all the combinations of attacks the two clones can use.

So with that, I'm done with NG. Will probably start a new character to check out some things I'm curious about, and then move onto NG+ later on. Planning to write a long TLDR post about my overall impressions at some point as well.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

dude, backstep parry literally invalidates every melee weapon other than whips, ultras and greathammers (whose 2H movesets cannot be parried).

Backstep (and roll) parries are really dumb, and I hope it is patched out ASAP, but they can actually be played around. Jump attacks are unparryable, and every character has access to some sort of projectile capable of punishing a backstep/roll.

And it really wouldn't be too bad without instantaneous parry startups, like the Monastery Scimitar. Having to use something that required a bit of anticipation to pull off a successful parry would relegate this technique to being nothing more than a way to setup parry R1 or Spin-to-Win spammers with relative impunity, given high enough Agility. That seems fairly benign as far as Souls series PvP glitches go. I'd be more concerned about people exploiting, say, the Engraved Gauntlets glitch.

I'm more convinced that instantaneous startups on parries are far more deleterious to PvP health than backstep/roll parries. It's simply too easy to reaction parry anything. Attacks are "slow" (compared to most action/fighting games), making for a pretty cheap "input tax". This would be fine if it was more of a defensive technique, in which the player expends stamina to negate an attack and maybe gain positional/frame advantage, but successful parries in Souls games allow for brutal ripostes. Enjoy taking upwards of 1600 damage from a Shadow Dagger or Sacred Chime Hammer. Basically, it's way easier to perform than Royal Guard in DMC3/4 or parries in Third Strike, but far more rewarding. Souls games need parrying to be anticipatory in nature, or else aggressive melee can easily be countered by anyone with a modicum of reflexive ability.

plus, it's way waaay easier to pull off than any of the more advanced backstab (i.e. more advanced than the basic backstab) techniques in DaS1.

Not really. MLG_PR0 poisestabs were pretty easy to pull off. Stack poise through the roof, walk/run through enemy attacks, backstab them during recovery. The only counter to this was using weapons with a strong vertical poke component, hence Estoc Turtlers and Dex Pyro builds being "top tier". Roll backstabs weren't much harder to perform, and once you got the hang of it, it was an easy counter to the entirety of dozens of weapons that worked on almost any build or loadout. Ridiculous.

and people really overstate the backstab problem in DaS1 PvP. BS fishers (on PS3 at least) were barely more common than cheaters (on PC), and very easy to counter backstab. plus, you really had to know what you were doing with heavy weapons. i never managed to be good with them, but i've fought plenty of folks that "wrekt d00ds" with the heaviest weapons (zwei being a classic example, as was the large club).

Prevalence of "fishers" wasn't the problem with backstabs in Dark Souls 1. The problem was that they were most often the best attack in the player's arsenal (even factoring in different level ranges, weapon sets, loadouts, stat choices), were often the best (or only) counter to many opposing strategies, and was low cost in terms of both input txing as well as in-game resources (effectively it cost no stamina and a successful one awarded not only high damage, but an enormous amount of positional advantage over the downed opponent because reversals aren't a thing in Souls games). Completely busted technique, no wonder it warped the metagame completely around it in DkS1 and was nerfed hard (but not hard enough for my liking) in DkS2. Would really love the fourth entry in the "series" to nix them altogether.

chain backstabs were stupid, but most people realized the retardation and were quickly de-mode (i don't think i've been chain-BSed a single time in the whole of 2012. sure, i'm only one sample, but if they were as prevalent as people make it out to be, like f.e. giant dads, i should've faced at least one or two in a year, no?)

Yeah, some light gentleman's agreements existed in DkS1, but in "tryhard" PvP you can bet that chain backstab game was coming out in force. To a degree, a lot of the fun factor in Souls PvP comes from much of the population purposely not "playing to win", but "playing to have fun". Using builds that are more about quirkiness than optimal metagame position or whatnot. If everybody went "tryhard" it would be an absolute shitshow with non-stop ganksquads using only the most broken builds and abusing every glitch.

That said, I'm pretty certain that similar agreements exist (or will exist) in a similar fashion for Dark Souls 2. Sure, you'll still run into jerks abusing poorly implemented mechanics, but I assume the diehard fans will be a bit better once the xXx$$420MLG_PR069$$xXx types move onto the next big thing.

 

[Jaedar]

Darklurker is by far my favorite boss in Ds2. He has a lot of interesting attack patterns that all feel fair. And it has a nice feel to it, it starts off fairly easy(his attacks aren't very hard to dodge) then he splits into two and suddenly it becomes a lot harder to find an opening to get a hit in. Also has a fairly interesting visual design.

 

[Surf Solar]

Funny thing is that you can stagger him and he has a long recovery rate. I have seen a video of a guy doing that, he didnt even get to split into two clones..

 

[DragoFireheart]

NG+ Summary:

Spoiler

Fashion Souls: Prepare to Style Edition:

Spoiler

 

[Murk]

That Forbes article is legitimately painful to read. How the fuck do people get so goddamn pretentious?