The worst offenders in the HP bloat category are the damned NPC invaders. Basic Armorer Dennis has health beyond what is obtainable at 99 END. Human players (good ones, anyway) may be much wilier, but they're far less durable.
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From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™
- Thread starter felipepepe
- Start date
CthuluIsSpy
Arcane
Oh yeah, they gave the NPCs way too much health, especially the DLC ones.
White Maldron is just annoying, because the fucker runs away and heals his bloated health pool.
Llyod's works on him though, at least.
I find poison tends to work against NPCs. The Black Stinger is particularly useful, because its light, fast and needs no stats to use effectively. You just need the bare minimum to use it, and then you can just infuse it with raw to maximize damage and poison.
White Maldron is just annoying, because the fucker runs away and heals his bloated health pool.
Llyod's works on him though, at least.
I find poison tends to work against NPCs. The Black Stinger is particularly useful, because its light, fast and needs no stats to use effectively. You just need the bare minimum to use it, and then you can just infuse it with raw to maximize damage and poison.
can't wait till you get to the DLC invaders... you're in for a couple of very "nice" treats :D [btw, i agree they went overboard with NPC invader health. on NG+ it's even more ridiculous]
Yeah. There's a little bit of cheapness and artificial difficulty in DS2 that I don't think was there in DS1, at least not quite to this extent. It's only a sprinkle here and there though, not a big deal.
Funnily enough I find many of the bosses easier than in DS1 (from what I remember; it was ages ago) and have beaten many on the first or second try, including lone Ornstein, without using phantoms. The Pursuer gave me a bit of trouble until I learned that simply circling to the right and rolling with the correct timing and positioning makes him all but unable to hit you. The Ruin Sentinels are a different story, but by the time I finally go back there I'll be far stronger than I was and it'll be a more forgiving experience.
Annoyingly, I can't ever seem to get summoned for boss fights, possibly due in part to my Soul Memory being Tier 20. Since I can't seem to find co-op, I've just been playing offline lately. No sense getting randomly invaded if I can't enjoy the benefits of online. There are usually 2,000-3,000 players online on Steam, so I should surely get summoned occasionally... although come to think of it, maybe I need to turn off region restriction in the settings.
Funnily enough I find many of the bosses easier than in DS1 (from what I remember; it was ages ago) and have beaten many on the first or second try, including lone Ornstein, without using phantoms. The Pursuer gave me a bit of trouble until I learned that simply circling to the right and rolling with the correct timing and positioning makes him all but unable to hit you. The Ruin Sentinels are a different story, but by the time I finally go back there I'll be far stronger than I was and it'll be a more forgiving experience.
Annoyingly, I can't ever seem to get summoned for boss fights, possibly due in part to my Soul Memory being Tier 20. Since I can't seem to find co-op, I've just been playing offline lately. No sense getting randomly invaded if I can't enjoy the benefits of online. There are usually 2,000-3,000 players online on Steam, so I should surely get summoned occasionally... although come to think of it, maybe I need to turn off region restriction in the settings.
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
They're also too damn low to hit with a lot of weapons, and they're pretty fast too. Multiple times I tried to hit them with a spear, only for them to go right under it. Shield up or not, it's was pretty much guaranteed death. And if you're on a slope and they're below you, don't even bother. If it's not some sort of overhead attack, you're fucked.
Of course, all of this is moot if you're using some sort of ranged attack or magic whatever. I ended up using a bow for most of them, or (carefully) taking them on when they're uphill. And alone.
I'm just really glad that I happened to kill the Skeleton Lord that spawns the wheel skeletons first.
Then I killed the other two Lords and realized that, indeed, I also had to kill all the spawns. Thanks, Dark Souls.
Then I killed the other two Lords and realized that, indeed, I also had to kill all the spawns. Thanks, Dark Souls.
CthuluIsSpy
Arcane
yeah, the skeleton lord fight isn't too hard as long as you eliminate the lords one at a time. At least that's how it in vanilla.
Do they keep spawning dudes in scholar, even when alive? That would be annoying.
Do they keep spawning dudes in scholar, even when alive? That would be annoying.
They spawn skeletons when killed. One spawns two wheel skeletons, another spawns a small handful of heavily-armed skeletons, and the third spawns a small army of sword-and-shield skeletons.
Currently, I'm in Black Gulch and quit in disgust due when I realized that dark phantoms are immune to poison. I very carefully identified spots where the statues couldn't hit me, sprinted between them while carefully dispatching the worms and puddle homos, and then that red HP-bloated sack of artificial difficulty ran through a hundred statues getting spit on constantly without taking a scratch. Since I'm a sorcerer and was trapped on one very long, but extremely narrow strip with a melee guy wielding a boulder on a stick, I died.
And then if you die, all of the fucking statues come back, which is extremely tedious. Punishing mistakes with tedium is bad difficulty in a game (great for real life, though).
I did however notice that the spit staggers phantoms at least, so I might be able to use the statues to blast them while they get constantly staggered.
Joke's on them really, souls are very easy to recover here and I'll simply be accumulating more until I'm able to kill all the phantoms.
CthuluIsSpy
Arcane
So just like vanilla then. The hardest part of that boss is killing multiple lords at once. Then you have to deal with 12-18 skeletons.
I actually kind of like the Skeleton lord fight in that its the only multiple boss fight that feels well done.
The thing about multiple threat fights is that you need to put some sort of obstacle in the boss arena, so you can separate your targets. This is partly what made the O&S fight successful, imo. Can you imagine what O&S would be like without those pillars to break them up? It would be quite frustrating, especially if they moved at the same speed and didn't over extend. The hardest part of the O&S fight is trying to get super ornstein; if you focus on Ornstein first, it becomes much easier as he keeps rushing forward, allowing you get a few hits in before Smough catches up.
Compare this to Watcher and Defender, where they both move at the same pace and you don't really have many openings.
The problem with the multiple threat fights in the DS2 is that they don't have these obstacles; in most cases it's a big open area, and the enemies tend to bunch together, which results in 20 minutes of trying to kite them and waiting for the AI to separate themselves so you can get it a hit in before continuing on your merry game of keep away. They don't feel fun or challenging, just tedious.
Yeah, the statues coming back is annoying. They should have left them destroyed upon reload.
Its particularly frustrating when trying to do Luca's quest, as there's like 15 of them on the path to the boss gate. You have to rush ahead and break them before she gets poisoned.
At least they break to whips though.
The black phantoms are immune to poison? That's odd, I have no problem inflicting poison on NPC black phantoms in vanilla. They either have high resist, or they are immune to environmental poison. Which is still some bullshit, but semantics anyway.
They're clearly immune to environmental poison, but not to fall damage.
I beat Woodland Child Victor the "standard" way: by clearing the first set of tar pools of statues, waiting for him there, kiting, blocking, rolling, and blasting him with spells at opportune times. It took an eternity, because YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO NOT BE MELEE! STOP NOT BEING MELEE! WE NIHONGO, HONORABRU KATANA BATTURU OR YOU DIE! GOMEN! I know from some Googling about NPC dark spirits that a lot of people take days to figure out how to beat these guys, so I consider myself well above-average.
For the Woodland Child Gully chore-fest, I decided to get creative and took Lucatiel's hidden path near the Black Gulch entrance, hoping to ambush him from the overlook with impunity. I did, and I smashed him with a bunch of spells, but amazingly enough he eventually beelined for the hidden drop-down to my overlook. I jumped down from the overlook, ran back to the drop-down spot, waited for him to jump from the overlook also, and then I took the drop-down again. I noticed that he was taking fall damage (so was I), so I quickly equipped Jester's Tights and Ring of Restoration, and he killed himself with fall damage after a few more cat-and-mouse run-throughs.
Considering that a lot of enemies fall off of shit halfway across the level for no reason, I'm going to guess a lot of people used the overlook to cheese the phantoms and that From specifically pathed them to be able to follow. One of the large mummies near McDuff's, the one patrolling further up the rampart from the barrel-rolling one, actually stopped respawning entirely because he'd fall nearly every time I visited for upgrading.
I'll think about it when I've actually located a well-designed boss. I'm starting to get the feeling that Hollow Knight (the game) spoiled me pretty badly.
At the moment I'm salty that Sorcery has turned out to be a noob trap. "It's great against bosses!" quoth Lazing Dirk, and yet 22 casts of Great Heavy Soul Arrow—with a +10 Sorcerer's Staff, 40 INT, and 28 ATN—brought The Rotten down to about half health. That is by far the most damaging spell I have available to me with any respectable quantity of uses, which is also part of the problem. All of the spells with any variety beyond "blue magic missile" may do twice as much damage, they may have seeking capabilities, but they also have 1/10th the uses. Since everything is a HP bloat fest, these spells are nearly useless. Utilities don't do shit versus bosses or strong enemies in most cases.
With a Dexterity build, you have many more points available for VIG, END, and ADP, meaning you get more invincibility frames on rolls and better, further rolls, and more stamina for rolling and attacking, which is good since many boss fights are all about rolling into attacks with perfect timing. You also get access to DEX shields which are great for parrying, and of course you can easily spec into bows (you'll probably already have those stats, actually) and slightly less easily into crossbows. With a Strength build, you can get lots of VIG, END, and VIT, vastly superior weapons and STR shields, and heavy armor (not necessarily heaviest, but certainly more than twice the protection a Sorcerer will have). You'll still be able to roll fine as long as you're under 70% load, can take more hits, and can dish out more damage at close range. You too can easily spec into crossbows (you'll probably already qualify) and slightly less easily spec into bows and greatbows.
Sorcerer on the other hand has no particular health, stamina, rolling, shield, or armor advantage, since massive quantities of points must be spent in INT and ATN. Limited kiting is possible, and yet you will be forced into close-range combat at least half of the time in almost all cases, so on balance you've got to do just about the same amount of rolling and blocking, except the fight tends to take longer. Spells are slower than quick one-two combos and hits from heavy weapons, and not particularly more damaging overall.
I'd use a Soul Vessel to spec into a "battlemage" with a few slots for enchantments and utilities, but then I'd have to enhance some all-new equipment. Easier to just start over.
CthuluIsSpy
Arcane
That's why you have items that give you extra spell casts. Remember those amber herbs you keep picking up? Use them. They'll give you back a few casts, and you can buy more. There's also stronger versions of them, and by this point you should have a few saved up. Wilted Dusk herbs also drop from desert sorceresses, iirc, and those are even better.
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I know how the game works. You've just completely missed both of the points I was making.
I still had 48 casts of Great Soul Arrow remaining after Great Heavy Soul Arrow was depleted, which were more than enough to finish him off. There was no need for +spell use gear, all of which would weaken my defenses further than they already were (the ring especially). My point isn't that it can't be done, but that it's extremely frustrating and inefficient. It would be significantly faster, more efficient, and more forgiving to take on The Rotten with any kind of melee or quality build, since I'm forced to defend myself in the same way those builds are for a similar amount of time, yet with only a fraction of their defensive advantages. Being able to kite isn't an advantage if it just ends up taking longer; besides which, melee can kite too. My Raw infused +8 basic light crossbow, the weakest one in the game, deals almost as much damage to enemies as Great Soul Arrow. If I'd run out of casts, I could have used that as well.
I've done a lot of Googling around lately and a great many people have come to similar conclusions, especially in DS3 but also in DS2. Even in PvP, the best and most viable Sorceries are linear projectiles that are easily dodged, on top of not dealing enough damage. I know this in part because I easily dodged (or parried with the Cleric's Parma) nearly all of Armorer Dennis' spells. In DS3, PvP Sorcerers must be extremely skilled because they have to free-aim their sorceries at the point where their opponent's inevitable dodge roll will end, much more difficult than doing the same with a melee weapon.
I still had 48 casts of Great Soul Arrow remaining after Great Heavy Soul Arrow was depleted, which were more than enough to finish him off. There was no need for +spell use gear, all of which would weaken my defenses further than they already were (the ring especially). My point isn't that it can't be done, but that it's extremely frustrating and inefficient. It would be significantly faster, more efficient, and more forgiving to take on The Rotten with any kind of melee or quality build, since I'm forced to defend myself in the same way those builds are for a similar amount of time, yet with only a fraction of their defensive advantages. Being able to kite isn't an advantage if it just ends up taking longer; besides which, melee can kite too. My Raw infused +8 basic light crossbow, the weakest one in the game, deals almost as much damage to enemies as Great Soul Arrow. If I'd run out of casts, I could have used that as well.
I've done a lot of Googling around lately and a great many people have come to similar conclusions, especially in DS3 but also in DS2. Even in PvP, the best and most viable Sorceries are linear projectiles that are easily dodged, on top of not dealing enough damage. I know this in part because I easily dodged (or parried with the Cleric's Parma) nearly all of Armorer Dennis' spells. In DS3, PvP Sorcerers must be extremely skilled because they have to free-aim their sorceries at the point where their opponent's inevitable dodge roll will end, much more difficult than doing the same with a melee weapon.
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
Well, eventually great. As I said, I was already at a pretty high level when I (briefly) respecced into wizardry for shits and giggles, so I already had access to pretty much whatever I needed (top tier spells and such). But until you get to that point... yeah. Did you find Straid yet? He's got some good spells, though you'll need the correct boss soul for many of them, and some require using an ascetic to get the upgraded boss soul.
Still haven't defeated Ruin Sentinels after my first attempts many hours ago. I've been through every other part of Lost Bastille, so he's clearly behind them.
Can't wait to roll around with those guys again. The series should be called Dark Rolls, because that's basically what it is unless you're armored completely out the wazoo. Why I chose sorcerery over the agile build I was initially thinking of is a real mystery, one that may never be solved. Fortunately, no one cares.
Can't wait to roll around with those guys again. The series should be called Dark Rolls, because that's basically what it is unless you're armored completely out the wazoo. Why I chose sorcerery over the agile build I was initially thinking of is a real mystery, one that may never be solved. Fortunately, no one cares.
CthuluIsSpy
Arcane
You can bypass the Ruin Sentinels if you have a Pharros Lockstone. Use in the room where you find the twinblade.
Have you found Carillon yet? He might have some nice stuff for you.
There's another boss soul trader in the shaded woods. Talk to her and you can buy from her later later.
Have you found Carillon yet? He might have some nice stuff for you.
There's another boss soul trader in the shaded woods. Talk to her and you can buy from her later later.
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Realistically though, the levels and upgrade materials are probably better spent elsewhere. I imagine you could blast off "only" 15-20% of its health bar with a ranged weapon instead.
I've come to the conclusion that sorcery et al. needn't even be in these games to begin with, and largely exist to add variety. The difficulty in Dark Souls derives mainly from timed rolls (and/or blocks and parries) and heavy-hitting enemies being in your face constantly. There has never been an enemy I defeated through sorcery for which the tactics used weren't fundamentally identical to melee tactics, save mostly fruitless attempts at maintaining a distance, and probably the fights would have ended more quickly and safely through methods other than sorcery.
I think I was spoiled by Dragon's Dogma. While not as difficult or unforgiving as the Souls series, it has its moments, and you also received two customizable autonomous party members. You could therefore play a magic user and focus on careful tactical positioning and the timing of casting spells, rather than having to dodge every attack yourself and use your spells as a slower, more limited, and shittier version of melee that can occasionally masquerade as a crossbow that uses less stamina.
I went ahead and bought DS3 since I need to de-stress from being butthurt about sorcery in DS2. Went with a knight, and effortlessly sliced through everything and the first boss without dying, including the optional crystal lizard guy. From what I've heard, doing even the beginning of DS3 with magic is far more difficult because it was nerfed even harder.
Basically From doesn't want to allow magic to do the massive damage it should do in order to justify the massive investment and paper-thin resultant defenses. I suppose once you have a lot of levels and all the good gear it's pretty okay.
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Mozg
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2,033
Sorcery is fairly cool in DS2 PvP, they give you a few tools to set up rudimentary "zoning" between homing soul stuff (arrow and mass), soul flash (a weak sorcery wrath of god they added in the DLC), which are all basically setup to land soul spears and soul greatswords. Plus whatever pyromancies you want on the side get a pretty good flame BNS. It's as viable as most stuff in DS2.
For single player, you're basically just doing a blue-flavored version of any DS2 run, same as any Souls game where magic isn't so overpowered that it becomes a squash. I don't think it's really any weaker overall vs. a single stat normal build, except against the big DLC bosses that have their elemental resists cranked up.
Agree that magic is much cooler in Dragon's Dogma, but I dunno how easy it would be to translate that kind of creativity in a stricter Soulsy kind of skill-based game. DS2 actually did steal DD's anodyne for the Warmth pyromancy.
For single player, you're basically just doing a blue-flavored version of any DS2 run, same as any Souls game where magic isn't so overpowered that it becomes a squash. I don't think it's really any weaker overall vs. a single stat normal build, except against the big DLC bosses that have their elemental resists cranked up.
Agree that magic is much cooler in Dragon's Dogma, but I dunno how easy it would be to translate that kind of creativity in a stricter Soulsy kind of skill-based game. DS2 actually did steal DD's anodyne for the Warmth pyromancy.
yes, magic is much much better in Dragons Dogma
all kinds spells are all kinds of shit in DS3, regardless of level. and besides the ridiculous stat investment (they now cap at 60, not 40), you also need all the spell boosting gear so every build is exactly the same. pyros are okay, but this time require significant stat investment
DS2 magic is much better than DeS/DS1 where it was so easy to make it OP it was essentially easy mode since getting to firelink. the spell selection is also much better than the other Souls games, and you need to remember that you also have really good pyromancies, and with a decent investment in Faith you'd also have access to some pretty neat Hexes (and miracles by extension). it takes a bit of time to get the better spells, but from what i understand you haven't even got to Tseldora, let alone Castle Drangleic so you're not even halfway through (particularly considering DLC areas). btw, the game used to have a couple of utterly ridiculous "nukes" that literally trivialised every boss encounter, but they were all nerfed (some a bit too much, like the lightning spears). the stat investment is nowhere near what you're implying as you don't need Vitality, and can get by with significantly less Vig/End (and even Adp) than melee builds. the early game is definitely boring since all you have is X types of soul arrow
I disagree with the last bit. A strong weapon requires far less STR and DEX investment than a strong and long-lasting spell setup requires INT/FTH and ATN. You'll also end up with more shield options, in addition to getting bows/crossbows essentially for free. This frees up a large number of points to be spent in VIG, END, VIT, and ADP.
Even with my starting Sorcerer who has high base INT and ATN, if I were to respec now I'd have something like 42 points to spend elsewhere. I could put about 16 of them in STR and DEX (current STR and DEX are 13 and 9), wield an upgraded Blacksteel Katana with an infusion, retain the option to use the light crossbow while gaining bow options, and then put the 26 remaining points into defensive stats that will actually keep me alive, mainly to boost END for Stamina (and Defense and Poise) and ADP's Agility/i-frames. I'd be able to hit the magic 120 Stamina/100 Agility number easily. With a non-Sorcerer starter, I'd be able to additionally pump VIT and VIG. That would be ideal considering the strongest bosses all but require rolling.
Rolling further and faster with more i-frames and being able to take more hits is a huge advantage that sorcery doesn't make up for in any way. As it is I have a heavy investment in sorcery in order to do middling damage that is very easily outstripped by a strong weapon with less stat investment. They must be used from closer range, but that doesn't actually matter.
Even with my starting Sorcerer who has high base INT and ATN, if I were to respec now I'd have something like 42 points to spend elsewhere. I could put about 16 of them in STR and DEX (current STR and DEX are 13 and 9), wield an upgraded Blacksteel Katana with an infusion, retain the option to use the light crossbow while gaining bow options, and then put the 26 remaining points into defensive stats that will actually keep me alive, mainly to boost END for Stamina (and Defense and Poise) and ADP's Agility/i-frames. I'd be able to hit the magic 120 Stamina/100 Agility number easily. With a non-Sorcerer starter, I'd be able to additionally pump VIT and VIG. That would be ideal considering the strongest bosses all but require rolling.
Rolling further and faster with more i-frames and being able to take more hits is a huge advantage that sorcery doesn't make up for in any way. As it is I have a heavy investment in sorcery in order to do middling damage that is very easily outstripped by a strong weapon with less stat investment. They must be used from closer range, but that doesn't actually matter.
Mozg
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2,033
Blacksteel sucks infused because of bad base damage, it's purely for dex/quality to get scaling. The uchi is the cheapskate katana to use at minimum stats.
I worked it out and a basic sorcerer will be about 20 SL behind a completely basic strength or dex build. After about SL 70 (which IIRC you get well before the end of the "collect four pieces of the triforce" part of DS2, maybe after doing like 1.5 of the branches) that deficit means the basic normal infusion build only has marginal stats to put those points in, like getting up vitality, diminishing returns'd vigor, getting 101 agility instead of mid-'90s, etc, while the sorcerer has everything it needs online at a minimal level at SL 90 or so. VS a "quality build" it's pretty close to even, slight advantage to sorcerer.
And once you have 20 vit/20 end and an infused +10 cheapskate weapon there's nothing in the base game that is gonna get massively easier to fight with more levels anyway.
I worked it out and a basic sorcerer will be about 20 SL behind a completely basic strength or dex build. After about SL 70 (which IIRC you get well before the end of the "collect four pieces of the triforce" part of DS2, maybe after doing like 1.5 of the branches) that deficit means the basic normal infusion build only has marginal stats to put those points in, like getting up vitality, diminishing returns'd vigor, getting 101 agility instead of mid-'90s, etc, while the sorcerer has everything it needs online at a minimal level at SL 90 or so. VS a "quality build" it's pretty close to even, slight advantage to sorcerer.
And once you have 20 vit/20 end and an infused +10 cheapskate weapon there's nothing in the base game that is gonna get massively easier to fight with more levels anyway.
Your math is a bit off. I've finished off The Rotten and have probably been fucking around way too much (paths opened and mostly walked, but then I often turned back to explore more elsewhere), so my current SL is 85. By the time I finish off the other three parts of the Quadforce, I'll likely be around level 90. If I respec right now, I'll be able to run this:
That's 100 AGI compared to my current 93 and 123 Stamina compared to my current 100, both of which are a big deal for rolling and sustainability. Also two more points of VIT than I currently have to give me an extra mobility edge, a bit more Poise, Defense, and HP, enough STR and DEX to use Uchigatana, Royal Kite Shield, Light Crossbow, and Longbow, and enough INT to use Great Magic Weapon when desired, as well as Fall Control which is a nice utility. Further levels could be used for more STR/DEX and a bit of VIT, and more VIG.
In addition, I could replace my cast speed ring with, say, the Ring of Steel Protection +1, or any other useful ring that isn't intended to slightly un-nerf pre-nerfed sorceries.
Doing it this way would restrict me largely to melee, but I'd have a significantly better time rolling through every attack, which is what you've got to do anyway no matter your build (unless wearing EXTREMELY heavy armor, I suppose).
That's 100 AGI compared to my current 93 and 123 Stamina compared to my current 100, both of which are a big deal for rolling and sustainability. Also two more points of VIT than I currently have to give me an extra mobility edge, a bit more Poise, Defense, and HP, enough STR and DEX to use Uchigatana, Royal Kite Shield, Light Crossbow, and Longbow, and enough INT to use Great Magic Weapon when desired, as well as Fall Control which is a nice utility. Further levels could be used for more STR/DEX and a bit of VIT, and more VIG.
In addition, I could replace my cast speed ring with, say, the Ring of Steel Protection +1, or any other useful ring that isn't intended to slightly un-nerf pre-nerfed sorceries.
Doing it this way would restrict me largely to melee, but I'd have a significantly better time rolling through every attack, which is what you've got to do anyway no matter your build (unless wearing EXTREMELY heavy armor, I suppose).
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