From Software The Dark Souls II Megathread™

[Black Angel]

I could buy Great Hollow, but the reason I mainly mentioned it is because it connects to Ash Lake which is a stark contrast from the swamp.

I think it's not right to see it that way. The Ash Lake is directly adjacent to the Great Hollow, so questioning how the Ash Lake 'connects' to the swamp because it's connected to the Great Hollow is strange. Just look at it:

Spoiler

The Ash Lake is so far down the whole geography, not to mention after long descent from the top of Great Hollow to the bottom of it, and then emerging upon Ash Lake, does it really matter to you that it connected to the Great Hollow which is, in turn, connected to the swamp?

I also think it reinforced the mythic journey as Silva mentioned, the Ash Lake is basically the remnants of the Age of Ancient, buried so far deep beneath Lordran to be forgotten and lost. I don't know how Gwyn and the gang have done it, but they did it, the absolute mad lads.

I'd say the majority of locations visually fit with where you start out which is Majula. But I think you're misunderstanding because I'm talking purely in terms of artistry and visuals. I'll be the first to admit that DS1 is superior in terms of interconnectivity and level design for the same reasons Blaine mentioned.

...

Again, I'm not talking about the way the levels themselves are structured. Two of the locations I mentioned for DS1 were locations that I think are pretty good, but those are stand-outs among a good chunk of the game that's drab and uninteresting to look at. Blighttown is distinct for sure, for many reasons, but the way it looks isn't really one of them.

But I do think this brings up an interesting point as to what we refer to when it comes to level design, locales, and world design because clearly we're not talking about the same thing.

So basically, you're saying that you'd prefer to *look* at locations in DaS2? Oh well, fair enough.

I'm just saying what I said because, to me, I'd prefer to spend my days and explore most of the locations in Lordran because I think everything that made up its world, from the levels, the visuals, encounter designs, traps and hazards, and even things like loot placement (no matter if it's just chests or even corpses) reinforce one another exquisitely, coupled by hints and direction placed on item's description so actually reading them lets you know where to go next. The fact that they were all interconnected made it even better, and these are the things that were sorely missing from DaS2's base game.

True. What would you say is the second best sequence, though?

I'm particularly fond of Bloodborne Yharnam-half myself (Central Yharnam>Church Ward>Old Yharnam>Grand Cathedral).

I would say that, too. But only because I haven't played Demon's Souls, so there's that for the time being.

Maybe we'll see something in Sekiro.

 

[Electryon]

People sit around and pretend like Dark Souls 2 was SUPPOSED to have the same interconnected design as the first game. News flash: Dark Souls 1 is not a "world", it's the immediate area in and around Anor Londo. It is, essentially, exploring one location, and it is all vertical. And yes, it just so happens that the first half of the game is about as well conceived any video game level design has ever been.

That is not what Dark Souls 2 is. The sequel is exploring ALL of Drangleic. It's an entire kingdom. Since Dark Souls does not operate in the same open-world way as something like Skyrim, the way to differentiate and mark the travel between the areas became boring hallways. In the end, who gives a shit?? They are nothing more than interactive loading screens to transport you to the various scenarios that the areas in the game are comprised of. In the end it still has WAY more options for how you start out your play-through than Dark Souls 3 has (as far as I'm aware, there are no options in that regard at all until after the Undead Settlement, and even then it's either/or). While it is true that Dark Souls 3 has better looping level structure in individual levels (Cathedral of the Deep is probably the best the series has ever done in this regard), it's world design as a whole is only marginally better, and is actually a WORSE offender when it comes to abundance of bonfires. Point being, let's quit pretending like Dark Souls 1 is the norm when it comes to how these games are supposed to function from a level-design perspective. Out of the 5 of them, it's literally the only one that connects in such a way, and even then that only really holds until you get to Anor Londo.

 

[Black Angel]

People sit around and pretend like Dark Souls 2 was SUPPOSED to have the same interconnected design as the first game. News flash: Dark Souls 1 is not a "world", it's the immediate area in and around Anor Londo. It is, essentially, exploring one location, and it is all vertical. And yes, it just so happens that the first half of the game is about as well conceived any video game level design has ever been.

Not Anor Londo, but Lordran. Anor Londo is the domain of Gwyn and his knight, as is Tomb of the Giants-Catacombs to Nito and Izalith-Demon Ruins to the Witch and his Daughters of Chaos. Firelink-Burg-Parish-Oolacile/Darkroot-New Londo are the domains of those who follow the Lords and they all make up the "world" of Dark Souls that is Lordran. So, yeah, Dark Souls 1 IS a world.

That is not what Dark Souls 2 is. The sequel is exploring ALL of Drangleic. It's an entire kingdom.

I don't see how it's any different considering, again, that Dark Souls 1 is exploring ALL of Lordran that is the "world" of Dark Souls 1, or using your own word, "kingdom".

Since Dark Souls does not operate in the same open-world way as something like Skyrim, the way to differentiate and mark the travel between the areas became boring hallways. In the end, who gives a shit??

Boring for you, maybe. And funny that you're mentioning Skyrim as 'open-world', because to me, Dark Souls 1's first half is actually more open-world than Skyrim, the same way Gothic is true open-world compared to Bethesda's shit 'open'-world design.

And I do give a shit, so does any other who preferred the overall design of Dark Souls 1's world.

They are nothing more than interactive loading screens to transport you to the various scenarios that the areas in the game are comprised of.

Nah, I still find it much more fun to explore that way.

While it is true that Dark Souls 3 has better looping level structure in individual levels (Cathedral of the Deep is probably the best the series has ever done in this regard),

Not really....? The Cathedral of the Deep were rather straight-forward, as in you just keep going and eventually you unlock a shortcut that leads to that first bonfire, twice. Relatively better compared to the rest of the game, but not 'the best the series has ever done in this regard' of 'better looping level structure in individual levels', because I think (off the top of my head) that should go to Sen's Fortress because it has a touch of a hidden bonfire.

it's world design as a whole is only marginally better, and is actually a WORSE offender when it comes to abundance of bonfires. Point being, let's quit pretending like Dark Souls 1 is the norm when it comes to how these games are supposed to function from a level-design perspective. Out of the 5 of them, it's literally the only one that connects in such a way, and even then that only really holds until you get to Anor Londo.

I'm actually not sure what point you're trying to make. First you're trying to discredit Dark Souls 1's design, and halfway through your post you switched to mentioning Dark Souls 3's. As far as I remembered nobody really praised Dark Souls 3's level design nor anybody said they have 'better looping level structure in individual levels' or even calling Cathedral of the Deep 'the best the series has ever done in that regard' specifically.

But I have to disagree, because I'm not pretending that Dark Souls 1 is the norm when it comes to how these games are supposed to function from a level-design perspective; I *know* it is.

 

[Electryon]

Go look at a map of the world and compare Drangleic to Lordran. Anor Londo is in Lordran, but it's hard to take seriously that the entire kingdom is composed of what is above and below the city. And again, that is ALL Darks Souls 1 is. You are either heading to the depths of the world below Anor Londo, or you are trying to reach it. At least 85% of the time. To think that this vertical slice of the world is ALL of Lordran is pushing it. I suppose it could be, but that would make Lordran the smallest kingdom in the history of video games. Even in the DLC, you are simply visiting a past version of a known location.

Meanwhile, Drangleic is literally sending you to places that aren't anywhere near where you started out. You can tell from the skybox in the Majula that even Heide's and the Forest are meant to be a significant distance away, much less Drangleic Castle and other locations. Hell, the Lost Bastille requires taking an eagle or ship to reach. It's out in the middle of nowhere in the ocean. I suppose it is the functional equivalent of the Undead Asylum, but that is the ONLY place in Dark Souls 1 that doesn't take place on the vertical Anor Londo ladder (besides the Painted World, which is a pocket dimension). Drangleic is just flat-out a world that is covering way more space and a way bigger land-mass than the first game. It isn't all that different from Baldur's Gate 2 when compared to the first game. In the original, you are simply exploring the wilderness areas immediately around the area of the Sword Coast closest to Baldur's Gate. In the sequel, you are using the map to travel to specific geographic scenarios that present unique situations, taking you far, far away from Athkala. No one can claim that the world of Baldur's Gate 2 is as seamless and connected as the first game, but hardly anyone would make the argument it is inferior because of this design choice.

 

[Hyperion]

Go look at a map of the world and compare Drangleic to Lordran. Anor Londo is in Lordran, but it's hard to take seriously that the entire kingdom is composed of what is above and below the city

Everything the light touches is our kingdom.

 

[Somberlain]

I would like to see a map of Drangleic that explains the Earthen Peak to Iron Keep transition

 

[Arnust]

Vampirick did make this concept:

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Just offed Dragonrider for the first time. The easiest boss I've seen so far in either DS1 or 2. I first tried parrying him, and was surprised that it worked, but the riposte does not, so that makes the parry somewhat useless compared to a roll. Then, I just rolled out of the way, but then realized you don't even have too, can just strafe behind his back the whole fight, as long as you don't get greedy with attacks.

Combine that with the fact that I got the binding ring in front of his building, and I am liking this dragon-rider douche.

 

[Tehdagah]

Usually when I've seen people try to describe why they think the first Dark Souls had better world and/or level design, they say it's because you could see where you were going next and eventually visit that castle you'd seen off in the distance, and/or that the world in DS1 flowed and fit better thematically, rather than areas having sometimes starkly different themes after stepping over a threshold.

These may both be true (although their importance varies from individual to individual), but rarely do I see the actual level design discussed, nor any insight into why it was superior. Well, I'll tell you: The level design was better in DS1, especially early on, because you didn't receive instant bonfire fast travel right away. The levels had to be designed in such a way that the player hiked, climbed, and jumped everywhere without the use of fast travel, there were shortcuts to uncover (not just some wall to knock down to find a bonfire) and routes to memorize, and this made for a profoundly improved feeling of exploration and discovery. This is a great example of why ubiquitous fast travel is cancer in any RPG or action RPG.

In DS3 on the other hand, you receive fast travel almost immediately, and furthermore bonfires are so close together that you can see one while standing at the other in some cases, or sprint to the next in 10-20 seconds. Beyond this, the progression through the game's various levels feels incredibly linear, which is due not only to the ubiquitous fast travel bonfires themselves but also to the resultant level design, which suffers from being created with those bonfires in mind.

DS3 has many more problems than just the bonfires and level design, but that's a big one.

So fast travel is bad because the player have to do less backtracking?

 

[Wunderbar]

Just offed Dragonrider for the first time. The easiest boss I've seen so far in either DS1 or 2. I first tried parrying him, and was surprised that it worked, but the riposte does not, so that makes the parry somewhat useless compared to a roll. Then, I just rolled out of the way, but then realized you don't even have too, can just strafe behind his back the whole fight, as long as you don't get greedy with attacks.

Combine that with the fact that I got the binding ring in front of his building, and I am liking this dragon-rider douche.

dragonrider is basically a glorified mob. You'll fight them again later.

 

[pakoito]

Just offed Dragonrider for the first time. The easiest boss I've seen so far in either DS1 or 2. I first tried parrying him, and was surprised that it worked, but the riposte does not, so that makes the parry somewhat useless compared to a roll. Then, I just rolled out of the way, but then realized you don't even have too, can just strafe behind his back the whole fight, as long as you don't get greedy with attacks.

Combine that with the fact that I got the binding ring in front of his building, and I am liking this dragon-rider douche.

dragonrider is basically a glorified mob. You'll fight them again later.

Taurus Demon.

 

[Average Manatee]

Just offed Dragonrider for the first time. The easiest boss I've seen so far in either DS1 or 2. I first tried parrying him, and was surprised that it worked, but the riposte does not, so that makes the parry somewhat useless compared to a roll. Then, I just rolled out of the way, but then realized you don't even have too, can just strafe behind his back the whole fight, as long as you don't get greedy with attacks.

Combine that with the fact that I got the binding ring in front of his building, and I am liking this dragon-rider douche.

Dragonrider is a fearsome foe:

 

[sullynathan]

the good old days when I used that trick.

 

[L'Montes]

As an aside, if you're doing a low level or Agape run and trying to keep your souls low, you can sprint to the boss while killing nobody, grab the one NPC summon by the door, and then run in to do this trick. If you time it well, the boss will be dead long before your NPC summon appears and goes to the door, so he won't mess with the AI. You'll get 25% less souls for having a "helper". It can give you some wiggle room, since running Heide's without any combat is easier than most areas.

 

[Explorerbc]

Oh boy, I hope that next boss doesn't give me trouble ...

Spoiler

 

[Blaine]

You don't really need any help with the giant pukeshit unless you plan to cheese it by blasting it with sorcery while your minions keep it occupied.

 

[L'Montes]

The most NPC summons were famous for being basically lemmings in most of the encounters in the launch release (Jester Thomas being a notable exception). Lucatiel's questline required she actually *survive* the encounters she was summoned to help you with, so this made her questline particularly hard as she tended to suicide on Smelter or just walk off things and die before the bosses.

SotFS made them a bit hardier and less likely to die, and added some NPCs that behaved more competently. Though it's worth noting they tried to patch things so Lucatiel would *die* less in particular, post launch, because it was that big of an issue (with Benhart too, to a lesser degree).

A side effect of the brain-damaged NPCs was they'd basically cripple you though, you'd buff the boss, but the NPCs would die so quickly - you would've been better off solo.

With this fight in particular, Lucatiel and Schmidt had a talent for dying and standing in AoEs/flame. Bashful Ray was the more competent SotFS addition, who was thoughtful enough to bring pyromancy to the Rotten instead of suiciding for justice.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Finished off a couple of bosses today: Flexile Sentry and Rat Something Something Vanguard. Also, dealt with the effing Pursuer in various places. That mother is annoying at first, but after a while, I figured him out. If you stay close to him and in front, he tends to do his regular attack, which I can parry with reasonable efficiency, letting me do damage once he is immobilized, or heal if needed. If you get far from him, on the other hand, he tends to do that freaking impale curse attack, which can't be blocked/parried. Anyways, in each fight, I would parry him 4-5 times, get my damage in, then he goes into his curse casting mode, and I just spam attack. Worked like a charm, and I killed him 3 times in various places around Bastille.

Also found a bunch of new areas today: Lost Bastille, Gutters, Sinner's Rest. I really like Bastille, probably my favorite area so far, reminds me of Sen's Fortress from DS1. Lots of hidden stuff, reasonably decent enemies. Although, I finally found the boss room, with the three ruin sentinels, and screw that. Not going there until later. Gutters, on the other hand, are a pain in the arse. Almost made it to the boss gateway, but it's so hard to make out where to go in the darkness. It's like they combined Blightown and Tomb of the Giants from the original game just to fuck with the players.

Going with Elite Knight Armor set for now, upgrading it as shards become available. Got a +5 Rapier and a buckler.

 

[Wunderbar]

Gutters, on the other hand, are a pain in the arse. Almost made it to the boss gateway, but it's so hard to make out where to go in the darkness. It's like they combined Blightown and Tomb of the Giants from the original game just to fuck with the players.

i hope you're not walking torchless?

 

[Multidirectional]

Finished off a couple of bosses today: Flexile Sentry and Rat Something Something Vanguard. Also, dealt with the effing Pursuer in various places. That mother is annoying at first, but after a while, I figured him out. If you stay close to him and in front, he tends to do his regular attack, which I can parry with reasonable efficiency, letting me do damage once he is immobilized, or heal if needed. If you get far from him, on the other hand, he tends to do that freaking impale curse attack, which can't be blocked/parried.

I actually found his forward lunge attack easiest to parry. He's also very easy to dodge, it's rare for me to take any damage from him.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

i hope you're not walking torchless?

No, but it's still hard to make out where to go there, with all the similar looking shanties and platforms.

So, took down 2 more bosses today, the boss form of Pursuer, and the nu-Ornstein Old Dragonslayer. Pursuer was easy after fighting all his non-boss forms, got him on 2nd try. The Dragonslayer, I tried parrying him first, but it kinda sucked. If you get a parry, it only immobilizes him for like a second, so you can barely get any damage in, and forget about healing. Plus, he has a lot of attacks that initiate from far away, so those are even harder to time parries on. Anyways, after he got me once, and I had to run all the way back through the all giant and Heide knights (plus some PvP invader asshole, good timing bro), I got pissed, and just started rolling instead of parrying against him. Much, much easier, as you can 2-hand your weapon for extra damage, and without the wind-up time, the roll is much easier to time as well. Got him on 2nd try.

Also took down 2 dudes in PvP, both invaded my world. The first (the one I mentioned in Heide Tower of Flame) I parried once (pretty impressive with lag), but messed up the riposte due to PvP inexperience. Mostly tricked him by switching up parrying/rolling/attacking. My first PvP win in DS2. The next guy invaded me while I was knee deep in those poison spitting things in the Black Gulch. Not sure if he was a noob or what, but seeing a parrying buckler in my hand, he went right at me, attack, attack, attack. I parried and riposted him 2-3 times, easy win.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Man, fought Lost Sinner today, that POS is like a more annoying version of Artorias from DS1. Gonna come back to face her in a few levels. I think I need to increase my Agility a bit, for more iFrames for BS bosses like this.

Took out The Rotten, and found some new areas to explore.

The really nice thing about Dark Souls in general is how many hidden nooks and crannies are in each area. You can keep coming back, and find something new each time. A ledge you can jump onto, a hidden door, that Pharos Contraption you couldn't unlock before, etc.

Oh, also continued my undefeated PvP streak (4 straight and counting) in the most hilarious fashion. One guy I took out in a nice exciting fight, he got some licks in, but ultimately I parried and riposted him twice, and won. But the other guy... He invaded my world while I was in Sinner's Rise tower. So while waiting for him, I didn't want to be surprised, so I took up a position with my back to the wall inside the lowest floor, where you take the elevator down to the water tunnel. He jumped down from above after a while, but I guess he didn't see me there, so he must've figured I was down in the tunnel. So he hops on the elevator, right in front of me, and as it starts going down, I jump onto it from behind him, poke him twice in the back before he even realizes what's going on, and the hits pushed him off the elevator. He falls down to his death, and I have a good laugh.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Taking out bosses like a ... well a boss.

Destroyed The Skeleton Lords, Covetous Demon, and Mytha the Baneful Queen. The last one was especially hillarious, because I didn't know you could drain her poison room, so the whole fight I was alternating dodging her attacks, attacking, and gulping potions for poison damage.

Now, I am in a little fun place called the Iron Keep.

It wouldn't be so bad if:

1. Alonzo Knights didn't attack at superhuman speed.
2. I didn't get invaded by NPC Dark Spirits every 2 steps (e.g. Fencer Fiona, Armorer Dipshit, Forlorn something something). Armorer Dipshit even manages to invade twice, in different places.
3. I didn't get invaded by human assholes while NPC invaders are on cooldown.
4. Alonzo Knights didn't clump together like sticky turds.
5. Every other treasure wasn't placed in fire/lava/flames.
6. Alonzo Knights didn't damage my equipment like corrosive acid. I am wearing that knuckle ring that's supposed to slow down equipment damage, and still, my buckler gets close to breaking by halfway through the first area.

 

[L'Montes]

Forlorn is semi-random, but the other NPCs are one-time only for a given area assuming you kill them. You will run into them in multiple places (An NPC invader is somewhat infamous for this).

Iron Keep has been a PvP stomping ground forever now. You'll note a huge portion of PvP clips for DS2 that aren't in the arenas are filmed on the bridge. It's where people come to PvP. Aside from playing offline, there's not much you can do about that.

Knights will be a bit different resist-wise than the fleshbags in the prior areas. They're weaker to blunt damage (like most armored foes), and lightning/magic. They can also be backstabbed.

The knights shouldn't be damaging your equipment too much, but there are *other* sources of equipment damage in that area. Bucklers aren't really made to tank much either though.

If all else fails, you'll eventually despawn the knights. Also, if you aren't already, you can go back to the tree in Forest area near the dead end around the first time you fought Dennis to get Seeds. These can be helpful for invaders sometimes (though they got nerfed hard).

 

[Somberlain]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Ice Rapier" bullshit that's going on in the DS2 community right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about 20,000€) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why Eleum Loyce never bothered conquering the Iron Keep? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Alonne Knights and their Blacksteel Katanas of destruction. Even in pvp ganks, scrubs targeted the men with Washing Poles first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in DS2. Here are the improvements I propose for all katanas:

+50% increase to base damage
Bypasses shields like shotel
S scaling for both strength and dexterity
90% physical reduction and 70 stability when blocking

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in DS2, see my improvements.