1eyedking The descriptive text in Planescape would be considered bad writing by novelists

[Chris Avellone]

TBH, the fact that they use a variant of stir in successive sentences annoys me about that PST screen. An easy thing to fix, so I'm surprised nobody did.

Chris is very bright and creative, but I don't need to read his wikipedia page to know he has never taken a writing class in his life. His work is plagued with basic technical errors.

I totally agree with this. It was painful to go back and read the text when I was working on the enhanced edition - and also realize how many basic spelling and grammar errors there were. While I have taken writing classes (which makes this admission worse), the failure is mine, not my teachers. Torment suffered the curse of not having an editor, which wasn't even considered a "thing" by Interplay at the time - or Obsidian. I did hire one with my own money for Lonesome Road, but that was perhaps the worst DLC to ask an editor to look over.

For PoE, I did advocate for an editor and had lined up candidates, but Obsidian wouldn't pay for a professional as "we'd sunk too much into this game already." (It definitely would have helped the game, imo.) I was a bit frustrated to learn they'd hired one for Tyranny, even if the team didn't like the editor - for me, it was just surprising to discover they only realized the value one project too late.

I didn't know D:OS2 had gotten a Chinese localization, but I was surprised to see it so far above PoE2 (I had actually assumed it had been discounted and that was the reason it was farther up the charts).

I just checked, and D:OS2 is still on there, but PoE2 is off the top 25 (not sure if that coincides with the same pattern with PoE1, and being off the top 25 doesn't mean the game is selling badly necessarily, it can also mean that other games are simply selling a lot more than originally expected).

EDIT: ...on the Global Top Sellers charts, that is.

 

[Sacred82]

Everything I mentioned is considered amatuer writing, as established by the greatest writers of all time

OF ALL TIME

Spoiler

 

[Bladeract]

The descriptive text in Planescape would also be considered bad writing by novelists. Opening descriptions of a character shouldn't exceed one brief sentence; one and a half at most. Prefacing the introduction of a character with several successive sentences of description is clunky writing. It's also clunky to use several adjectives successively, I.E "strikingly beautiful ghostly form." Another problem is how the writer describes physical actions after descriptions of physical appearances. The reason why this is uncommon is because authors are trying to create the illusion of a 'moving' world, whereas this approach makes it seem like time is frozen while the protagonist is making his observations.

"She stirs slightly and her eyes flicker, a striking ghostly form with long flowing hair, arms crossed and eyes closed." - That's how a traditional writer would of done it

Can somebody explain why this post is controversial, or is it just people fanboying for Planescape?

Everything I mentioned is considered amatuer writing, as established by the greatest writers of all time

The same 'novelists' on twitter who think that Lovecraft was an awful writer.

 

[Curratum]

For PoE, I did advocate for an editor and had lined up candidates, but Obsidian wouldn't pay for a professional as "we'd sunk too much into this game already." (

I find this so very puzzling, I can't even articulate it in words. I'm just stumped.

I always assumed every game, even those that did not involve pages and pages of text, went through a professional editor before release.

Are editor rates that steep?

 

[aweigh]

You try hiring someone to read through D:OS's script...

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Torment suffered the curse of not having an editor, which wasn't even considered a "thing" by Interplay at the time - or Obsidian. I did hire one with my own money for Lonesome Road, but that was perhaps the worst DLC to ask an editor to look over.

For PoE, I did advocate for an editor and had lined up candidates, but Obsidian wouldn't pay for a professional as "we'd sunk too much into this game already." (It definitely would have helped the game, imo.) I was a bit frustrated to learn they'd hired one for Tyranny, even if the team didn't like the editor - for me, it was just surprising to discover they only realized the value one project too late.

An editor is such a super important role, it kinda blows my mind that it is not standard for video game companies with huge writing teams, even though I always (probably falsely) assumed the lead writer would at least partly fulfill that role. For a book published on the mass market it is inconceivable that there wasn't an editor working on it but somehow for multi-million dollar video games, some of which that pride themselves on the good writing and stories, it is still a novelty.

I think Jeff Vogel in one of his blog posts said something about how PoE (or maybe RPGs generally) was missing an editor, even though I am not sure he works with someone himself, but he was very right about that.

An editor (or several) should be standard for any writing team.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

For PoE, I did advocate for an editor and had lined up candidates, but Obsidian wouldn't pay for a professional as "we'd sunk too much into this game already." (

I find this so very puzzling, I can't even articulate it in words. I'm just stumped.

I always assumed every game, even those that did not involve pages and pages of text, went through a professional editor before release.

Are editor rates that steep?

Depends on the word count, but it wouldn’t be that expensive. Certainly for a game with as much text as a novel or two it’s almost always going to be worth the cost. Any RPG studio should just hire someone full time.

As I play Deadfire, I get the sense that Sawyer—or someone high up at Obsidian—learned the wrong lesson from POE. They figured they could release the game in an unfinished state (I know, not the first time) and it would still sell. The word of mouth even from those of us who really like it is that it needs multiple patches to fix all the bugs and give the combat some semblance of difficulty. That can’t be good for the game’s staying power.

Maybe Obsidian’s saving the big marketing push for when Deadfire is actually finished.

Funnily enough, Tyranny was probably the most polished Obsidian release I can remember, so maybe the hiring of an editor was emblematic of a tighter focus on fixing bugs before the game came out. Then again, they clearly cut the final act to make that happen, so maybe it’s not worth the tradeoff.

 

[Bohr]

The descriptive text in Planescape would also be considered bad writing by novelists. Opening descriptions of a character shouldn't exceed one brief sentence; one and a half at most. Prefacing the introduction of a character with several successive sentences of description is clunky writing. It's also clunky to use several adjectives successively, I.E "strikingly beautiful ghostly form." Another problem is how the writer describes physical actions after descriptions of physical appearances. The reason why this is uncommon is because authors are trying to create the illusion of a 'moving' world, whereas this approach makes it seem like time is frozen while the protagonist is making his observations.

"She stirs slightly and her eyes flicker, a striking ghostly form with long flowing hair, arms crossed and eyes closed." - That's how a traditional writer would of done it

Can somebody explain why this post is controversial, or is it just people fanboying for Planescape?

Everything I mentioned is considered amatuer writing, as established by the greatest writers of all time

I thought it was a hilarious troll post actually

"would of"

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

There's a lot of discussion about what good writing is, but the fact that people would point to Planescape (which I love) as an example of good technical writing is concerning. Maybe if you never read a good novel in your life.

I will insist on this point again:

But if most cRPG writers are so dumb and shallow, what does this say about us? cRPG developers have always build worlds, characters and quests, but suddenly we have cRPG writer as a profession, walls of text, lore dumps, etc., and players debating the merits and flaws of this “writing”. This is a pretentious misconception of the genre. cRPG writing encompasses not only dialogue, story and characters, but quest design, world building, itemization, etc. In other words, cRPG writing is not something that is done separately from the cRPG stuff. But it is precisely because cRPG writing shouldn’t be evaluated separately that it should not be evaluated by the same standards we use to judge literature. Developers have to make a lot of concessions due to the conventions and limitations of the genre, from getting inside people’s houses uninvited to deliver this package quests.

TL;DR cRPG writer shouldn’t be a profession, cRPG writing is not restricted to what cRPG writers do, and players are just as pedantic as cRPG writers when they evaluate the merits and flaws of their work separetly from the cRPG stuff.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I think it's safe to say that any Codexer who references PS:T as an example of good writing is doing so within the context of video games.

You still shouldn't use it as a comparison of what good writing is, when both examples are terrible compared to any decent literature. Does Planescape really deserve a medal for being slightly less poorly written?

cRPGs are not literature and shouldn't be judged as literature. The genre has different goals and limitations that should be taken in consideration.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Chris is very bright and creative, but I don't need to read his wikipedia page to know he has never taken a writing class in his life. His work is plagued with basic technical errors.

I totally agree with this. It was painful to go back and read the text when I was working on the enhanced edition - and also realize how many basic spelling and grammar errors there were. While I have taken writing classes (which makes this admission worse), the failure is mine, not my teachers. Torment suffered the curse of not having an editor, which wasn't even considered a "thing" by Interplay at the time - or Obsidian. I did hire one with my own money for Lonesome Road, but that was perhaps the worst DLC to ask an editor to look over.

Sweet validation! I respect you for admitting this, even though many of your fans wont.

 

[Safav Hamon]

I understand CRPGs are not books, but many of the same rules apply. Planescape shouldn't get a free pass for its clunky writing and grammatical errors just because it's a videogame.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Video game writing could easily be on the level of literature.

Buuuuuulshit. You need to do quests, enter inside people's house uninvited. Who does that? How can you make sense of this? Do you want to jump over that barrel because it feels good. Please explain this to me. How about having a wharehouse on your ass as inventory? Nothing makes sense. You need to compromise with abstractions, and cRPG tropes because gameplay is the focus. writing in cRPGs means something else. God of War is a well written action game. If you compare cRPG writing with literature you are just as pretentious as these hacks. You think that writing in cRPGs are those words in dialogues boxes. You don't understand the genre.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I understand CRPGs are not books, but many of the same rules apply. Planescape shouldn't get a free pass for its clunky writing and grammatical errors just because it's a videogame.

If you are comparing PS:T with real literature you are already agreeing with them that the comparison has merit. It doesn't. PS:T is well writen game in cRPG terms. The exploration is tied to the narrative premise and the character's past. It does not try the same thing as a book and shouldn't be judged as such.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Clunky writing is clunky writing. It doesn't matter if it's a videogame, book, or movie.

Nobody is disputing that writing for videogames is different than writing novels, but there are valid criticisms that apply to both mediums.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

In the words of Milan Kundera (but from memory), artists should serve, take advantage of, and push the boundaries of the medium they are working with. I do not think that Gabriel Garcia Marquez would necessarily be attractive as a videogame writer or that any Kubrick's movie would make a good book. However, both Marquez and Kubrick were masters of the medium they were using.

PST has the best videogame writing I have ever seen, drew me in and had me constantly asking for more, while playing with existential/philosophical themes and my exploratory urges. What more could I ask for?

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Clunky writing is clunky writing. It doesn't matter if it's a videogame, book, or movie. Nobody is disputing that writing for videogames is different than writing novels, but there are valid criticisms that apply to both mediums.

Ok, how about this. The writing should be evaluated according to the specificities of the genre, but the principles of style (whatever the hell that means) still apply. If purple prose is bad writing, it will be bad writing in cRPGs even when we take the specificities of the genre in consideration. Now explain to us what is clunk writing and why PS:T has clunk writing.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The problem isn't with the style or prose. It's the amatuer technical errors that any decent writer would be appalled at. Chris Avellone even backs me up on this.

 

[Quillon]

The problem isn't with the style or prose. It's the amatuer technical errors that any decent writer would be appalled at. Chris Avellone even agrees with me.

He's not Chris Avellone mate, just an impostor.

 

[Safav Hamon]

Fanboys are making conspiracy theories now

 

[Egosphere]

"She stirs slightly and her eyes flicker, a striking ghostly form with long flowing hair, arms crossed and eyes closed." - That's how a traditional writer would of done it.

'would of'
Is this a joke?
Also, that sentence has strange structure of referencing her eyes at the very start and again at the very end.

You seem to think that writing consists of choosing the correct permutation of words. That is the editor's job. Writing is about creating a story and breathing life into it. No amount of 'writing classes' or label-driven education will teach you how to write a good story. Storytellers are born, not taught. Your endless appeal to authority ( not your own, I might add ) makes you a fine specimen of Taleb's 'Intellectual-yet-Idiot' caste.

PS: Carrie Patel worked on Poe 2, Clive Barker worked on Undying etc.

 

[Roguey]

Clive Barker was put on Undying relatively late in the process to make it more interesting. He tried (and succeeded at least with regard to the first chapter). The real slam to use against him would be Jericho.

I was a bit frustrated to learn they'd hired one for Tyranny, even if the team didn't like the editor

The Bioware-esque Tyranny writers hated the Bioware guy, interesting to know.

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

You seem to think that writing consists of choosing the correct permutation of words. That is the editor's job. Writing is about creating a story and breathing life into it. No amount of 'writing classes' or label-driven education will teach you how to write a good story. Storytellers are born, not taught. Your endless appeal to authority ( not your own, I might add ) makes you a fine specimen of Taleb's 'Intellectual-yet-Idiot' caste.

PS: Carrie Patel worked on Poe 2, Clive Barker worked on Undying etc.

One hundred times this. The good writer, just like the good intellectual, is self-taught. There are no classes for this kind of stuff, because it results from instinct, good judgement, a keen eye for what is relevant.

I was a bit frustrated to learn they'd hired one for Tyranny, even if the team didn't like the editor

The Bioware-esque Tyranny writers hated the Bioware guy, interesting to know.

It speaks volumes about their arrogance and incompetence.

 

[Urthor]

You need to compromise with abstractions, and cRPG tropes because gameplay is the focus. writing in cRPGs means something else.

God forbid you'd write a game that doesn't have dungeons & dragons and generic science fantasy tropes as a basis. Oh woe be the world how could that possibly be acceptable.

Video game writing could easily be on the level of literature.

Buuuuuulshit. You need to do quests, enter inside people's house uninvited. Who does that? How can you make sense of this? Do you want to jump over that barrel because it feels good. Please explain this to me. How about having a wharehouse on your ass as inventory? Nothing makes sense. You need to compromise with abstractions, and cRPG tropes because gameplay is the focus. writing in cRPGs means something else. God of War is a well written action game. If you compare cRPG writing with literature you are just as pretentious as these hacks. You think that writing in cRPGs are those words in dialogues boxes. You don't understand the genre.

So basically you are arguing that you can't have well written literary prose AND have all the wonderful gameplay stalwarts you've come to enjoy, and that applies to all forms of video gaming? Because in the past games haven't upheld the standard of consistent real world literary novels possess?

That's a heft demand considering intrinsically those realistic novel's purpose is to portray a situation, namely reality, and fundamentally have the premise that *this is real*. My question would be, what delusion made you think that novels selling this portray all of literature? If you haven't read a book you think is "literature" that doesn't adhere to your brand of rigid realism, such that it couldn't perhaps portray a world that contains some fundamental concession to game mechanics, well you really have not read many books.

Pulitzer prize tier writing doesn't mean that realism is the goal, it means that the prose has to be *well written*. Period. A narrative that isn't a shambles, written word that is incredibly well presented both technically and structurally, and a consistent level of artistic achievement throughout. None of that has anything to do with your concept of realism, and what good writing entails and you're deluded to think mainstream literary novel writer, or even writing as a field, revolves around those things.

You might be surprised, but human beings are pretty good at this making bullshit up gag, and conceiving a game world where all your supposed "realism breakers" are dealt with in a narratively consistent manner is perfectly possible. Gameplay doesn't need to inform the writing, you can put the writing first and the making fun gameplay bit second and still have it work, but even if it does you can still do the writing well and in such a manner that you achieve a stunning impact.

I don't know why you'd even imagine that you need ironclad realism to have something that's well written however.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Things I leanred form this thread: games aren't literature, therefore bad garmmar and poor syntax are allowed.