The Elder Scrolls Online

[Cyberarmy]

I'm sure they'll break even on box/initial DD sales alone. And I'm sure that, initially, the monthly fees will cover the cost of operation. At least for a few months. But, yes, an MMO where one character can master everything makes absolutely no sense.

"Every member of our party has 100 in all skills... so who is gonna heal?"

Noone of course Everyone is a DPS!?!
Also everyone will roll for everything (I presume drop system will be WoWish)

 

[Akratus]

I'm sure they'll break even on box/initial DD sales alone. And I'm sure that, initially, the monthly fees will cover the cost of operation. At least for a few months. But, yes, an MMO where one character can master everything makes absolutely no sense.

"Every member of our party has 100 in all skills... so who is gonna heal?"

Whoever has the perks and gear for it.

 

[Scruffy]

Mmorpg fans aren't easily fooled

I sense an oxymoron, or something else i can't quite put my finger on... "people who fall for the worse shit on the planet aren't easily fooled"... i don't know, i'll just stop thinking about it because it's giving me a headache.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I'm sure they'll break even on box/initial DD sales alone. And I'm sure that, initially, the monthly fees will cover the cost of operation. At least for a few months. But, yes, an MMO where one character can master everything makes absolutely no sense.

"Every member of our party has 100 in all skills... so who is gonna heal?"

Whoever has the perks and gear for it.

Don't be naive ,it will be like GW2-everybody will DPS.

 

[Caim]

Mmorpg fans aren't easily fooled

I sense an oxymoron, or something else i can't quite put my finger on... "people who fall for the worse shit on the planet aren't easily fooled"... i don't know, i'll just stop thinking about it because it's giving me a headache.

When people get a taste in shit, they don't want to taste other shit.

 

[Lhynn]

Mastering everything is one of the biggest pros of the elder scroll games, you should be able to do it with time and dedication, including this on an mmo is actually smart, as there will be people that will want to master every skill. Roles should not be dependant on what you can do, but on what you want to or are needed to do, making it more flexible and avoiding falling on the same tired and repetitive tasks ad infinitum. Holy trinity is a tired concept.
Tanking is a stupid task, healing is even more stupid, dps as a concept is the root of all decline, comparing numbers is the apex of shitty design, stuff should have uses beyond a purely numerical fashion.

Dont get me wrong, TESO is going to be bland boring shit, but making something different is always good, especially on this genre... even if it turns out to be shit.

Just think about it, how will one player be more powerful than another if it masters light and heavy armor? it will just make him more flexible, but not clearly better.

 

[Raapys]

Hmm, I disagree entirely. I played a doc with no dps in Anarchy Online for many years, it was extremely fun. Also feels great knowing that raid group of more than 10 people all depend on your heals to live more than a few seconds.

If anything, the problem has been that later mmorpgs have turned all of those classes into dps machines *and* made them optional in groups(i.e. instead of heals being essential for your survival, they're now just a small boost). Granted, it kinda sucked having to find a tank and a doc or two every time you wanted to do more difficult content, but these are multiplayer games after all. And by making every class essentially the same, you just remove team/cooperative tactics completely.

 

[Lhynn]

Hmm, I disagree entirely. I played a doc with no dps in Anarchy Online for many years, it was extremely fun. If anything, the problem has been that later mmorpgs have turned all of those classes into dps machines *and* made them optional in groups(i.e. instead of heals being essential for your survival, they're now just a small boost). Granted, it kinda sucked having to find a tank and a doc or two every time you wanted to do more difficult content, but these are multiplayer games after all.

tanking is retarded, why would the enemy attack the hardiest member on the team? where the fuck is the logic in that? healing is retarded, why would you make a class that you cant live without? healing should be an afterthought, it should be a "between battles" deal.

 

[Delterius]

healing is retarded, why would you make a class that you cant live without?

I mean, when the fuck are MMO players supposed to need one another, eh.

 

[Lhynn]

healing is retarded, why would you make a class that you cant live without?

I mean, when the fuck are MMO players supposed to need one another, eh.

Obviously support, but not in the sense of you needing someone clicking on your name and spaming a skill. recovery could come from debuffs to the enemy, regen effects to your team, long cooldown self healing, damage mitigation, etc.

They dont have to have 1 set role to be needed, sheer number and flexible tactics would mean more fun and dinamic gameplay, dps race could and should be avoided with monsters debuff, attacks, different victory conditions, etc.

 

[Delterius]

I found your phrase humorous because the system you're criticizing doesn't set One role to be needed. In a game like world of warcraft, every role is needed. This can't really be called a limitation of party composition and tactics in-game because of the sheer variety of classes and abilities that can be pigeonholed into one of the three roles. This is how the game forces people to play with the community.

If you don't have that, you need something else. Something else which draws people to fight together. And since everyone can be anything, odds are the monsters will become such stat bloats that you'll need MOAR DPS.

As an aside, dps race is avoided all the time. There are only some choice encounters which are straight out dps races, anywhere else there's the mantra of 'better alive than highest dps for 5 seconds after your death, dipshit'.

If there's a lack of variety in encounter design, its because MMOs like WoW are structured around the whole theme park paradigm. Not because there's one class dedicated to healing and who is pretty much necessary for a lot of the game's content. Old sandbox MMOs often had that.

 

[Scruffy]

Mastering everything is one of the biggest pros of the elder scroll games, you should be able to do it with time and dedication, including this on an mmo is actually smart, as there will be people that will want to master every skill.

Unless it's "old" Darkfall-like slow, i can't figure out a way to keep one busy after they've maxed out...
I mean, how could Bethesda possibly do it... through CONTENT?

 

[Lhynn]

snip

Just watch the lord of the rings, tell me whos tanking, whos healing and whos dpsing, then get back to me and talk about party composition needing to be set in stone. It is about making the game dynamic.

All you are presenting me with are supositions
"And since everyone can be anything, odds are the monsters will become such stat bloats that you'll need MOAR DPS".
It does not need to be this way, not that its a bad thing if everyone turns out to be good at doing damage, but the monsters can use their own tactics to keep themselves from dying too fast, like penalizing attacks when they take a certain stance or temporarily disabling some of the members of the team, etc. These are just examples i came up with in a second, im sure you can think of more if you try.

"As an aside, dps race is avoided all the time. There are only some choice encounters which are straight out dps races, anywhere else there's the mantra of 'better alive than highest dps for 5 seconds after your death, dipshit'."
Yes and no, when presented with the choice of how to face an encounter the ones that will be fighting on the offensive and the ones that are supporting on defending can change according to they own skills and strenghts (that theyve picked, like perks, weapon, armor, magical trinkets, passive bonuses, etc). you keep player tasks/role new and fresh, keep your players actually playing a game instead of repeatedly mashing the same keys.

"If there's a lack of variety in encounter design, its because MMOs like WoW are structured around the whole theme park paradigm. Not because there's one class dedicated to healing and who is pretty much necessary for a lot of the game's content. Old sandbox MMOs often had that." True, yet you seem to want to play the same games with updated graphics and a different log in screen.

idonthavetimeforthiscrap not every player will have the stupid amount of time necesary to max out their character, but having 2 warriors, both using one handed swords just as well, but the second warrior being able to also use bows because he invested time the first player didnt have on it will not automatically make the first player useless, while at the same time rewarding the second players time with flexibility instead of outright giving him power. Level might be a factor, but im not taking it into account because it is not what we are discussing.

 

[Art Vandelay]

CBA reading the whole thread,but people aren't expecting this shit to actually be good,are they?

 

[Raapys]

Obviously support, but not in the sense of you needing someone clicking on your name and spaming a skill. recovery could come from debuffs to the enemy, regen effects to your team, long cooldown self healing, damage mitigation, etc.

They dont have to have 1 set role to be needed, sheer number and flexible tactics would mean more fun and dinamic gameplay, dps race could and should be avoided with monsters debuff, attacks, different victory conditions, etc.

So instead of clicking a party member's name and spamming a skill, you'd rather have them click an enemy's name and spam a skill. Fair enough.

I really don't see why such things are considered 'better' or 'more enjoyable' than pure healing though. You see, the way I experienced it in ye olden days of AO, much of the fun came from the fact that anyone but the tank could take, at most, two hits before they died(assuming high level raid content). The tank could take 3-4 hits, and a few more if he used some special stuff.

This made fights interesting and unpredictable. The tank had to work like hell to keep all the aggro on them(yes, the good tanks did much more than just press a single button, at least in AO), while the doc had to keep an eye out for the tank as well as any unfortunate victims that might receive a random hit. And, of course, the occasional stupid dps'er that would steal aggro from tank. Meanwhile, the others would deal damage, CC, debuff, summon shit and generally do what they could to make the fight less difficult.

But the clearly defined roles and strengths and weaknesses was what ultimately made it fun to play in a team. The fact that not everyone could do the same stuff(well, except the adventurer, that's why everyone hated the class) made the game much more interesting to play. And it's why everyone I played with ended up rolling several different alts, even though getting them up to the 'fun levels' required hundreds of hours of grinding.

CBA reading the whole thread,but people aren't expecting this shit to actually be good,are they?

Haha, don't be ridiculous.

 

[Lhynn]

I really want to play AO with better graphics.

Ok.

"So instead of clicking a party member's name and spamming a skill, you'd rather have them click an enemy's name and spam a skill. Fair enough."
Dont be silly, why cast it more than once every half a min or so? why the need to spam skills when you can have fewer casts that are more meaningful?

 

[Raapys]

I really want to play AO with better graphics.

Strictly speaking, I want the old AO back. As well as Star-Wars Galaxies pre-Cu. SWG is dead and AO has declined far from what it once was.

"So instead of clicking a party member's name and spamming a skill, you'd rather have them click an enemy's name and spam a skill. Fair enough."
Dont be silly, why cast it more than once every half a min or so? why the need to spam skills when you can have fewer casts that are more meaningful?

Meh, I prefer enemies not be HP-bloats that take so long to kill that I've time to get a cup of coffee. I prefer fights be short and dangerous, requiring much action in little time. Sure, that doesn't mean spamming a single skill, but it should mean spamming skills, plural, or using inventory items and whatnot. Obviously you could argue you'd rather have less action and more thought put into it and all that, but since it's an MMO and you've probably done that specific fight dozens of times before, chances are you don't need much thinking in that particular aspect of the game.

 

[Lhynn]

Meh, I prefer enemies not be HP-bloats that take so long to kill that I've time to get a cup of coffee. I prefer fights be short and dangerous, requiring much action in little time. Sure, that doesn't mean spamming a single skill, but it should mean spamming skills, plural, or using inventory items and whatnot. Obviously you could argue you'd rather have less action and more thought put into it and all that, but since it's an MMO and you've probably done that specific fight dozens of times before, chances are you don't need much thinking in that particular aspect of the game.

again, hp bloat? why? whats the reasoning behind that?

 

[Delterius]

snip

Just watch the lord of the rings, tell me whos tanking, whos healing and whos dpsing, then get back to me and talk about party composition needing to be set in stone.

Stopped reading your post when I realized you didn't even read mine.

Party composition is not set in stone.

 

[Lhynn]

snip

Just watch the lord of the rings, tell me whos tanking, whos healing and whos dpsing, then get back to me and talk about party composition needing to be set in stone.

Stopped reading your post when I realized you didn't even read mine.

Party composition is not set in stone.

I did read yours, but i meant something else entirely.
yeah, you need a tank, a healer and some sort of dps, that much is set in stone in todays mmos. you cant survive dungeons without that
And i very much dislike that, because when i play a rpg, any rpg, i dont want tags on my character: sure, i can take damage, also do damage, i have a limited recovery potential and depend on others for damage mitigation, limited recovery and increased damage. There is strengh in numbers, strengh needed to overcome challenges that you alone could not, the holy trinity is pointless if you have that, because you have players cooperating already, without dictating how you want them to play their own character.

 

[Delterius]

Oh, I get it, you don't like it because its different.

Yes, character building and classes themselves are less versatile when compared to the unique butterfly refineries of some P&P rules. That doesn't, either necessarily or actually, limit a WoW's tactical potential or amount of playstyles. Each role by itself probably mean anything between ten to two dozen different playstyles, and their actual experience depends much more in encounter design than anything else.

Not to mention that even in WoW the other roles were only temporarily abolished. Things like the puller, the kiter, the controller, the buffer and the debilitator, which are roles that can be filled most excellently by a few are also, nonetheless, an option for most everyone. Again, such things depend on encounter design at most.

It is, of course, agreeable that the system itself is flawed due to the need for balancing. But that's to blame on design tenets much deeper than the roles themselves. Again, roles have existed since time immemorial.

Still doesn't make your initial assesment that needing a certain kind of player in a party is 'fucking retarded'. Its like saying that needing a spellcaster in a High Magic crpg is fucking retarded.

 

[Lhynn]

Lets not bring balance into the table, it is far from the issue im raising here, or encounter design for that matter..

What i am talking about is the fact that holy trinity can be safely removed without risking player cooperation. Class based or not class based isnt really an issue. The cleric (or anyone else for that matter) does not need to be the dedicated healer, in fact, the idea of a dedicated healer is a degenerate notion born from lazy minds that cannot be assed to actually craft interesting, well thought out flexible classes that remain faithful to their ethos.

For example:
A fighter being able to fight, means that he can do more than just take blows to the head really really well or stick the pointy end of the spear into the baddies belly really really well. it means a man that knows how to move in the battlefield, that is very capable of moment to moment decisions and maybe even able to raise morale or keep in calm even under the most dangerous and chaotic of battlefields.
On the other hand mage can warp reality. why give him a defined role when the very concept is so broad? even having a handful of spells that can be shaped into different forms and effects would make him the jack of all trades you could use in different encounters.
Rogues are resourceful characters that always have something in their sleves, why force them into a role like "dps" when "something in their sleve" is so vague and interesting to explore.

You can define classes without defining their role or make it a much much broader role, you dont even need to give them an untold number of skills to be able to pull this off, just a handful of sensible ones that can be applied in different situations with different, but predictible results.

PS: if i said something contrary to this statement before im sorry, just got from work and had a chance to put my thoughts in order, this is pretty much what i meant all along.

 

[Delterius]

What i am talking about is the fact that holy trinity can be safely removed without risking player cooperation.

No shit.

A dedicated healer? You mean, as someone who only fulfills one single role? That's actually new to me. As I said, The Holy Trinity isn't all there is -- even in WoW, even in the matter of character roles.

Again, I get that you dislike the lack of more frank roles in class design.

 

[Lhynn]

What i am talking about is the fact that holy trinity can be safely removed without risking player cooperation.

No shit.

A dedicated healer? You mean, as someone who only fulfills one single role? That's actually new to me. As I said, The Holy Trinity isn't all there is -- even in WoW, even in the matter of character roles.

Again, I get that you dislike the lack of more frank roles in class design.

Not talking about WoW especifically, not even pretending they change it there, they shouldnt, that game is what it is. im talking about all those new games with ideas recycled from it and a myriad of mmos that follow the "decicated role" route. Youd be surprised at how many of those there are, they number in the hundreds.

 

[Erzherzog]

What i am talking about is the fact that holy trinity can be safely removed without risking player cooperation.

No shit.

A dedicated healer? You mean, as someone who only fulfills one single role? That's actually new to me. As I said, The Holy Trinity isn't all there is -- even in WoW, even in the matter of character roles.

Again, I get that you dislike the lack of more frank roles in class design.

Not talking about WoW especifically, not even pretending they change it there, they shouldnt, that game is what it is. im talking about all those new games with ideas recycled from it and a myriad of mmos that follow the "decicated role" route. Youd be surprised at how many of those there are, they number in the hundreds.

Really? Hundreds? List a few. If there are hundreds it should be easy.

Stop being a vague asshole that can not defend his position. What you said was in response to the claim that a game where there are jack of all trades is retarded. You said it was fine, now you have changed your tone and it's "dedicated roles" that you hate. Guess what? Even the shittiest MMOs are above that, and actually because they specifically require a system of character building, which you seem to be against. You want no opportunity cost, no tradeoffs. You want a game to reward you simply for playing for more time which is what I find boring.