Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

[Piotrovitz]

If you rely on turning, healing and raising, you are playing IWD2 wrong.

Rely? lol, wot.

Ya, rely.

There's absolutely no reason to play IWDs defensively, unless you're RPing.
Cleric heals and turning undead were always shit in IE games.

 

[pomenitul]

Sure, but I always got a kick out of level 30+ neutral-aligned Viconia obliterating liches outright, even Odamaron in Sendai's enclave.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Paladins get +1 STR, +1 CON when completing the lost followers quest and gain the holy avenger. Plus there's some other Paladin only options to which everybody with 1 lvl of PAL gets access to. Any high CHA build can benefit from 2 (or only 1?) PAL lvls for Divine Grace, or even 3 for immunity to fear.
eg.
PAL2/Sorc X
Pal 2/ Monk 1 / Sorc X
Pal 2/ Cleric X
Pal 4/ Cleric X
Pal 2/F2/Cleric X etc
So if you think you want a cleric why not make him PAL 2/Cleric X gain stat bonuses, get to wield Cera Sumat and remove the need for a pure Paladin, basically killing 3 birds with one stone.

Cleric - Dreadmasters of Bane get +2 WIS for free eventually and they get some good domain spells
free WIS is useful for Druids as well e.g. DoB 2/ Druid X

Pally-Monk-Sorcerer rocks the house, it is known.

 

[octavius]

So how many classes can you be in whatever AD&D edition IWD2 is based on?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

no idea if it's even limited in this game, there are multi class builds on the internet with 8 classes, mostly it seems to be about getting access to certain equipment pieces (rogue, monk, paladin) while also getting stat bonuses (Pal,DoB) and having spell casting ability all in one package

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

If you rely on turning, healing and raising, you are playing IWD2 wrong.

Rely? lol, wot.

Ya, rely.

There's absolutely no reason to play IWDs defensively, unless you're RPing.
Cleric heals and turning undead were always shit in IE games.

It's hilariously amusing that you're taking someone's like for having the option to have quadrouple hitpoints if they so desire and trying to spin it as some form of grand overall game strategy of uber-defence. But, lol, wot, pls continue.

Sure, but I always got a kick out of level 30+ neutral-aligned Viconia obliterating liches outright, even Odamaron in Sendai's enclave.

Exactly. Couldn't think of anything more satisfying.

Paladins get +1 STR, +1 CON when completing the lost followers quest and gain the holy avenger. Plus there's some other Paladin only options to which everybody with 1 lvl of PAL gets access to. Any high CHA build can benefit from 2 (or only 1?) PAL lvls for Divine Grace, or even 3 for immunity to fear.
eg.
PAL2/Sorc X
Pal 2/ Monk 1 / Sorc X
Pal 2/ Cleric X
Pal 4/ Cleric X
Pal 2/F2/Cleric X etc
So if you think you want a cleric why not make him PAL 2/Cleric X gain stat bonuses, get to wield Cera Sumat and remove the need for a pure Paladin, basically killing 3 birds with one stone.

Cleric - Dreadmasters of Bane get +2 WIS for free eventually and they get some good domain spells
free WIS is useful for Druids as well e.g. DoB 2/ Druid X

Pally-Monk-Sorcerer rocks the house, it is known.

Because the most important reason for having a paladin is for the bonuses to saving throws. Strength and con bonuses are nice window dressing, but not exactly game-changing like saves are. With Divine Grace, as you say, it's only good for characters with a high Charisma score, so for all these bonuses to come into effect we're looking at a character with high Cha, high Con and high Str to take full advantage of them - which is what a pure Paladin is concentrating on. While a pal/cleric may benefit the cleric for the saving throws, what stat other than Int/dex are you dumping in order to pump Cha? What late game spells are you sacrificing for the extra saves? You answer what you get, but not what you lose. Immunity to fear sounds nice, but it's a low level spell that lasts long enough that if you have loads of spellcasters in your party is a non-issue quite quickly. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that at the current state of the discussion you're only providing one angle, which is only half-informative.

Edit: DoB are also evil aligned characters, which might rub some roleplayers a bit when dualing with a Paladin...

 

[octavius]

no idea if it's even limited in this game, there are multi class builds on the internet with 8 classes, mostly it seems to be about getting access to certain equipment pieces (rogue, monk, paladin) while also getting stat bonuses (Pal,DoB) and having spell casting ability all in one package

Why did they bother with classes at all? It seems rather pointless.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Why did they bother with classes at all? It seems rather pointless.

PnP DnD from 3e onwards doesn't really limit the number of classes you can take either and since this game is 3rd ed they probably just didn't bother to impose limits.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that at the current state of the discussion you're only providing one angle, which is only half-informative.

You said there's no reason to dual with a Paladin and that it would make zero sense. I told you that there are a number of boons to get for having even a single paladin level. You gain access to bonus quests, bonus stats, exclusive powerful equipment while losing (almost) nothing. A full cleric with 1 PAL level is still pretty much a full cleric because that 1 missing lvl ceases to be of importance soon enough while the gains certainly outweigh the minor inconvenience of lacking 1 caster level. There you have it, the reason why a cleric would take a paladin level in IWD2.

 

[Lilura]

Here is another write-up just posted on the originals. If you can add to my list of places where one can purchase the originals without purchasing the Enhanced Editions, I will credit you in the write-up.

 

[Average Manatee]

Why did they bother with classes at all? It seems rather pointless.

PnP DnD from 3e onwards doesn't really limit the number of classes you can take either and since this game is 3rd ed they probably just didn't bother to impose limits.

IWD2 implements the 3ed XP penalty if you multi class and your non-favoured classes have a level spread (-20% XP for each class more than 1 level apart). It's not prevalent in most other D&D games since prestige classes are exempt and in games like NWN everyone loads up on prestige classes, while in ToEE you're so low level you don't really have an incentive. In tabletop any sane DM either ignores the mechanic if you have a fair character or just flat out tells you not to do gamey shit if you are trying to do gamey shit.

Serious multiclassing like Paladin/Monk/X is severely nerfed thanks to IWD2 using a point buy system rather than the "roll until you get enough to make 18s in everything" system, meaning there's no way you'll have a good (16+)WIS/CHA score while also having competent CON/STR (for melee) or CON/INT (for wizards). It ends up only really working for caster-focused clerics. 2 levels of Paladin might give +2 saves and 1 level of monk +2 AC, but then you could have just taken the deep gnome which starts with +4 AC, saves, and spell resistance for a 3 ECL that is quickly overcome.

 

[Lilura]

3 ECL that is quickly overcome.

True, but that depends on party size and the willingness to employ cheesy strategies.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

You said there's no reason to dual with a Paladin and that it would make zero sense. I told you that there are a number of boons to get for having even a single paladin level. You gain access to bonus quests, bonus stats, exclusive powerful equipment while losing (almost) nothing. A full cleric with 1 PAL level is still pretty much a full cleric because that 1 missing lvl ceases to be of importance soon enough while the gains certainly outweigh the minor inconvenience of lacking 1 caster level. There you have it, the reason why a cleric would take a paladin level in IWD2.

Well, there's boons to everything you do, the question is whether those boons match what you lose. I suggested the boons you mention are minor, and you reply that what you lose is minor. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . The average end-game level for a regular party of 6 is level 17, lower for prestige and dualclass, higher for regulars such as pure Druids, etc. That's right on the borderline of all those juicy level 8/9 Cleric spells. I'd hardly call level 8/9 Cleric spells a minor thing, but that's the whole point of build choices and consequences.

I say its illogical because someone's first run at IWD2 is hardly likely to be a maximised endeavour, it's much more likely to be a regular role-playing experience. Dualing an evil character with a paladin just for an extra quest that you might not even find without spoilers is more munchkin territory than experiencing the full value of a class before you muck around with it.

The whole Pal/Sor thing comes from people going full-max, which involves abusing the game system to allow the character to reach its full level-cap of 30:

After a certain point that's actually not true any more. XP awards are based on average party level, and a party of a level 20 character with five level 1 tagalongs gets more than six times the experience the level 20 character would get alone, so the lead guy actually advances faster for having a few worthless minions following behind. I looked up the XP rewards by level tables once and calculated at what level I should add each extra level 1 party member for maximum xp gain and used it to play through "solo". My one real character would clear out a whole area while the rest sat at the area entrance, then I'd reunite the party to move to the next area. I hit level 30 long before the end of the game, and by the final boss most of the mooks had enough unused xp to instantly level up to 30 as well.

Taken from a thread where someone boasts:

Level 1 Paladin, everything else goes into Sorcerer. Max out your charisma and take whatever race gives you the best bonus to Charisma. Congratulations, you have just made a character with insane saves, martial weapon proficiency, and enough spells per day to take down most of Toril without taking a rest. This is apparently the build my friend, a confessed munchkin, completed the game on doing the whole Hof/Insane thing-a-ma-bob.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134532-Want-to-Solo-Icewind-Dale-II

Which is hardly what I'd recommend for a first time out. And I bring this up because people's memories of why things are cool and why they're not could well be biased from irregular runs rather than set, regular runs of 6 characters levelling normally.

 

[Average Manatee]

3 ECL that is quickly overcome.

True, but that depends on party size and the willingness to employ cheesy strategies.

3 ECL becomes 2 ECL and then 1.5 ECL (and the rest of the party getting +.25 ECL ahead of the normal power curve) pretty quickly even if you don't cheese. Average party level getting rounded down by 1 for a few fights often means double XP.

 

[Lilura]

In practice, it takes almost 3x the XP for a Deep Gnome to get to fifth level than it does a Human. That's where it counts. And there is just no need for builds like this, even in HoF: Deep Gnome Monk (5) / Rogue (1) / Dreadmaster of Bane (12) / Conjurer (12).

HoF mode is actually way easier than Normal, for a variety of reasons.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I was going in the direction of having everyone take 3-4 levels in Fighter and then dualling to paladin, or cleric, or rogue, or wizard, keeping at least one pure fighter, possibly turning the sixth into a barbarian.

What about Bards? Is it worth it losing one character for combat purposes relative to the bonuses his chants will provide?

 

[Average Manatee]

In practice, it takes almost 3x the XP for a Deep Gnome to get to fifth level than it does a Human. That's where it counts. And there is just no need for builds like this, even in HoF: Deep Gnome Monk (5) / Rogue (1) / Dreadmaster of Bane (12) / Conjurer (12).

HoF mode is actually way easier than Normal, for a variety of reasons.

True, especially in HoF where you just let monsters tank. But we're assuming the player wants to give up 3 levels in main class development in exchange for +2 AC and +2 saves. It only really makes sense if you're making a character who is going to have 16-18 in the relevant stat and then buff it to 20+ over the course of gameplay, not sit at 14.

I was going in the direction of having everyone take 3-4 levels in Fighter and then dualling to paladin, or cleric, or rogue, or wizard, keeping at least one pure fighter, possibly turning the sixth into a barbarian.

What about Bards? Is it worth it losing one character for combat purposes relative to the bonuses his chants will provide?

Make sure to study and understand how the multiclassing XP penalties work. Human and Half Elf will work for any dual class, others needs one of the right classes.

Any character with rogue should take level 1 as rogue, since they get 400% of the normal skill points IIRC. Rogue 1/Wizard x is a good combo, your very high intelligence takes care of keeping relevant rogue skills decent. Clerics are also good enough melee in the first place to not really need starting fighter levels, though 1 for feats is acceptable.

Bards in IWD2 have a feat called Lingering Song which makes bard songs last a few rounds after they are played. They are pretty competent characters if you take full advantage of this, but it requires a lot of micro.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I was going in the direction of having everyone take 3-4 levels in Fighter and then dualling to paladin, or cleric, or rogue, or wizard, keeping at least one pure fighter, possibly turning the sixth into a barbarian.

Lol, whatever.

 

[Lilura]

True, especially in HoF where you just let monsters tank.

Did you ever play pre-patch with Festering Drowned Dead and Apocalyptic Boneguards? That was insane. But really, if you get Halberd of Hate or Great Axe of Flame on a Dreadmaster who immobilizes mobs before wading in, you don't even need summons to have chunks flying all over (Cleave line).

 

[Piotrovitz]

What about Bards? Is it worth it losing one character for combat purposes relative to the bonuses his chants will provide?

There are very few games I can think of now where you don't take bards solely for RPing, but rather actual usefulness to the party - PoE and Wizardries just to name two.

Though the 11th level hp-regen chant can be pretty useful here.

 

[Lilura]

War Chant of Sith erroneously stacks with itself through LS but it's annoying to reactivate every three rounds. Don't need a Bard unless you want to optimize to the max, which isn't necessary at all.

 

[Average Manatee]

True, especially in HoF where you just let monsters tank.

Did you ever play pre-patch with Festering Drowned Dead and Apocalyptic Boneguards? That was insane. But really, if you get Halberd of Hate or Great Axe of Flame on a Dreadmaster who immobilizes mobs before wading in, you don't even need summons to have chunks flying all over (Cleave line).

"What do you mean, my level 3 cleric spell summoned semi-boss monsters from 3 chapters ahead of where I am, who are so powerful that they kill the party just by existing nearby even though they are friendly?"

 

[Lilura]

So what do you think is the worst bug left in 2.01?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Make sure to study and understand how the multiclassing XP penalties work. Human and Half Elf will work for any dual class, others needs one of the right classes.

I've already read the manual and a few of the gamefaqs writings, so I know about the penalty. I had forgotten about the rogue having to be the first in a multiclass though, thanks.

Rogue/Mage was the other option I was considering. In IWD there were notable advantages to taking fighter as a first class to every or nearly every party member. Is this still the case, now with 3rd ed?

 

[Average Manatee]

So what do you think is the worst bug left in 2.01?

Not really well acquainted with IWD2 bugs, but the lava cavern script has broken on me multiple times.

Rogue/Mage was the other option I was considering. In IWD there were notable advantages to taking fighter as a first class to every or nearly every party member. Is this still the case, now with 3rd ed?

This was more due to AD&D's exploitable XP/level system than any power-related reason. In AD&D XP requirements were exponential and unlinked to total level so that a fighter 5/wizard 10 might only need as much XP as a Wizard 11 (just making numbers up atm). So you only gave up 1 level of wizard in return for tons of HP and fighting ability. In 3rd ed and IWD2, a fighter 5/wizard 10 is directly equivalent to a wizard 15.

 

[Lilura]

The two I dread are: Crash inside River cave dragon lair and monk blocking the door in Black Raven.

Also, don't believe anyone who says Alchemy skill is required to get through the campaign (various walkthroughs), it isn't.