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Decline The lack of sincerity in RPGs (and gaming in general)

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
7,191
You have a chase scene with a shootout, the protagonists driving away while stormtroopers chase them. Laser bullets fly everywhere, it's a scene of high tension and danger. Then some stormtroopers launch into the air with jetpacks to attack the heroes from above. Escalation! Rising danger! Excitement!

Then, one of the characters asks, baffled: "They fly now?"
Another echoes him, even more baffled: "They fly now?!"
The third shrugs and says: "They fly now."

And boom, all the tension, danger, excitement is gone. It's all just a joke now. And it's completely retarded, because one of these characters is an ex-stormtrooper who should know that the army he served up until like five minutes ago uses aerial assault tactics with jetpacks. This little exchange single-handedly destroys all believability of this scene, and the setting as a whole. It stops being a believable universe with people who live and experience in it, and turns into a silly collection of tropes for the audience's entertainment.
I really appreciated Andor, it was the first piece of Star Wars TV where the script, dialogue and production was completely sincere and had a darker tone.
With the added note that being completely sincere doesn't require having a dark/darker tone. I guess one of the reasons for the success of manga's among a certain segment of the western public is that many of them take themselves absolutely seriously, regardless of the tone or the subject.
Yeah, it's a big aspect. The western limpwristed writer is insecure about the shit he serves. The japanese amateur often writes complete garbage as well, but is confident in it and unashamed, which itself actually raises the quality of it. He'll write a story about how his obvious self-insert MC builds himself a harem, fucks many bitches, and saves the world. The western writer is unable to do this without a severe heaping of irony, breaking fourth wall, and "I have a harem because this is how these stories go, amirite, dear reader? Wink, wink".
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Robert E. Howard was a chronically insecure bodybuilder

H.P. Lovecraft was a miserable incel

*Drumroll*

GLYHN8faAAAIlNZ


This tranny is the human analog of this thread, how appropriate
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,605
I’m also really annoyed with the reliance on recycling tired franchises that started in the 80s or earlier, instead of making new franchises and innovating.

When was the last time we had a fresh generation-defining and genre-defining multimedia kitchen sink scifi franchise, after Star Trek and Star Wars?
 

Brancaleone

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You have a chase scene with a shootout, the protagonists driving away while stormtroopers chase them. Laser bullets fly everywhere, it's a scene of high tension and danger. Then some stormtroopers launch into the air with jetpacks to attack the heroes from above. Escalation! Rising danger! Excitement!

Then, one of the characters asks, baffled: "They fly now?"
Another echoes him, even more baffled: "They fly now?!"
The third shrugs and says: "They fly now."

And boom, all the tension, danger, excitement is gone. It's all just a joke now. And it's completely retarded, because one of these characters is an ex-stormtrooper who should know that the army he served up until like five minutes ago uses aerial assault tactics with jetpacks. This little exchange single-handedly destroys all believability of this scene, and the setting as a whole. It stops being a believable universe with people who live and experience in it, and turns into a silly collection of tropes for the audience's entertainment.
I really appreciated Andor, it was the first piece of Star Wars TV where the script, dialogue and production was completely sincere and had a darker tone.
With the added note that being completely sincere doesn't require having a dark/darker tone. I guess one of the reasons for the success of manga's among a certain segment of the western public is that many of them take themselves absolutely seriously, regardless of the tone or the subject.
Yeah, it's a big aspect. The western limpwristed writer is insecure about the shit he serves. The japanese amateur often writes complete garbage as well, but is confident in it and unashamed, which itself actually raises the quality of it. He'll write a story about how his obvious self-insert MC builds himself a harem, fucks many bitches, and saves the world. The western writer is unable to do this without a severe heaping of irony, breaking fourth wall, and "I have a harem because this is how these stories go, amirite, dear reader? Wink, wink".
I was thinking more about stuff like Fisherman Sanpei (watched the anime when I was a kid, never read the manga): it's tone is cheerful/comical (at times verging on downright silly), the subject is not exactly a fulfilment of teenage fantasies, but it takes its core theme (fishing, of course) and anything related to it very seriously.
 

Moonrise

The Magnificent
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Make the Codex Great Again!
The problem with irony, which David Foster Wallace realized would never be solved in his lifetime so he checked out, is that it's all too easy to deconstruct, but nobody wants the responsibility of shouldering new founding myths. It takes guts. It takes vision. A person forging the new must be totally self-convinced. The whole world is afraid to do it. They've been afraid since the end of history. People cling to the status quo even as it devours their spirit. We live in an age of fear. You find truth and earnestness now only in the past, and in the mad. That this affects video games is a minor consequence. The larger problem is that you're surrounded by people who believe in nothing.
 

Sibelius

Learned
Joined
Oct 5, 2023
Messages
159
This is a valid complaint. But keep in mind, this is something that people "on the other side" have also noticed and begun to complain about. For example, I feel like the "cozy games" trend represents a pushback against irony and insincerity.

(Notice some of the reactions from Codexers when I used that term in this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...th-turn-based-combat-coming-next-year.151421/)
Boltgun is a game that aesthetically DOES NOT WORK because it was made by LYING FAGGOTS. We could technically break down why the game is wrong, the cheap way that papery blood effects obscure a lack of dynamic gore, the lack of unique weapon impacts, but the point is that anybody authentically channeling the same forces as SergeantMarkIV would not have made these mistakes. There is an organic connection between the motivating aesthetic impulses and the results. This is the difference in final results between sincerity and insincerity.

I hope this has been enlightening and we can now proceed with clarity.

GLYHN8faAAAIlNZ
Totally agree with the point that media is insincere because in some cases the people making it literally hate what they are doing.

 

thesecret1

Arcane
Joined
Jun 30, 2019
Messages
7,191
You have a chase scene with a shootout, the protagonists driving away while stormtroopers chase them. Laser bullets fly everywhere, it's a scene of high tension and danger. Then some stormtroopers launch into the air with jetpacks to attack the heroes from above. Escalation! Rising danger! Excitement!

Then, one of the characters asks, baffled: "They fly now?"
Another echoes him, even more baffled: "They fly now?!"
The third shrugs and says: "They fly now."

And boom, all the tension, danger, excitement is gone. It's all just a joke now. And it's completely retarded, because one of these characters is an ex-stormtrooper who should know that the army he served up until like five minutes ago uses aerial assault tactics with jetpacks. This little exchange single-handedly destroys all believability of this scene, and the setting as a whole. It stops being a believable universe with people who live and experience in it, and turns into a silly collection of tropes for the audience's entertainment.
I really appreciated Andor, it was the first piece of Star Wars TV where the script, dialogue and production was completely sincere and had a darker tone.
With the added note that being completely sincere doesn't require having a dark/darker tone. I guess one of the reasons for the success of manga's among a certain segment of the western public is that many of them take themselves absolutely seriously, regardless of the tone or the subject.
Yeah, it's a big aspect. The western limpwristed writer is insecure about the shit he serves. The japanese amateur often writes complete garbage as well, but is confident in it and unashamed, which itself actually raises the quality of it. He'll write a story about how his obvious self-insert MC builds himself a harem, fucks many bitches, and saves the world. The western writer is unable to do this without a severe heaping of irony, breaking fourth wall, and "I have a harem because this is how these stories go, amirite, dear reader? Wink, wink".
I was thinking more about stuff like Fisherman Sanpei (watched the anime when I was a kid, never read the manga): it's tone is cheerful/comical (at times verging on downright silly), the subject is not exactly a fulfilment of teenage fantasies, but it takes its core theme (fishing, of course) and anything related to it very seriously.
Authenticity comes hand in hand with belief in one's work. The irony we see in western works today is a form of mockery - it mocks the thing it writes about, whereas researching the topic and being authentic is a show of respect.
 

Iucounu

Scholar
Joined
Jul 4, 2023
Messages
1,201
I think the "humor" is a symptom of a dying genre rather than being the cause of its death. Any time something new becomes successful it's followed by the inevitable copycats, until the genre has been milked dry of any originality, and by then the only thing left to do is try to make fun of it. When even satire versions fail to sell, the genre has truly died and something new may take its place.

But I don't think it's just the writers that are tired of the genres they're forced to work with; once this "satire stage" in culture has been reached, mainstream consumers have also become bored of the increasingly bland derivative works, except as laughing stock.
 
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Sibelius

Learned
Joined
Oct 5, 2023
Messages
159
the people making it literally hate what they are doing.
Really? Why not make something they actually like? You're never gonna have the passion to do something well if you don't actually like the subject matter!
Probably because games, especially pre-existing franchises, have massive audiences. These people probably do some mental gymnastics and conclude that the pain of working on something they hate is eclipsed by the 'good' they are doing pushing 'The Message' and subverting the existing property to something that meets their standards.
 

GamerCat_

Educated
Joined
Mar 24, 2024
Messages
188
Totally agree with the point that media is insincere because in some cases the people making it literally hate what they are doing.


I have written a lot about Halo and its conceptual and spiritual roots. I think it's one of the strongest examples in Western gaming of the divine and the decay. The spiritual core of felt interests, passions, and intuitive connections which built it, and the process of compromise, democritisation and decay which finally reduced it to this. I've also spoken a lot about this. There's about 12 hours of me talking about Halo top to bottom through every single level on youtube.

Halo is an interesting and distinctly 90s America case. Video games were a not too closely scrutinised industry still, and in general culture had thawed out a little. This gave rise to a trend in American nerddom I call 'Dark 90s Libertarianism'. Curtis Yarvin libertarianism. Edward Neumeier writing Starship Troopers as a sincere lionisation of idealised neoclassical politics. A lot of proto-chud stuff was in the air. Nerds were reading books and asking questions. A lot of these guys laid the early intellectual groundwork and connections that would explode into the new dominant online right wing culture in the 2010s. This game wasn't made by evil rednecks. These guys went to collitch, like Neumeier they knew their classics. The last pre-internet Rome guys. Or the first of the new ones.

Halo is a work which undeniably grew out of those roots. The eye of ZOG stopped watching these guys so closely, and as a result they stopped watching themselves. I don't know if there was any consideration going into Halo CE of what they maybe shouldn't be doing. Even though they were accountable to Bill Gates. So just by kind of following their own interests, trends established earlier in their work, science fiction and pop-media they liked, they created something irresistable. And something libtards feel instinctively that they should be scared of. And they're so much more right than they know. Well... most of them.



I am on record saying over and over again that Moviebob has one of the best reads on Halo of all time, next to that of myself it might be the best spoken out loud appreciation of what these games are and always were. Bob is right until he draws back, even he can't even really consider the possibility of Halo actually being what it is to the extent that he suspects. Take it from someone smarter than Moviebob who has looked further, it's more. The deeper you dig into Halo the further right it looks until you realise it's fundamentally about reviving aryan root-culture to save civilisation from abrahamic corruption.

Note towards the end, he says he's not going to be so hard on Bungie because we're eventually shown downsides of the Spartan Program, and he shows footage from HALO 4, made by 343 Industries. Under THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY.

My friends and I, in more media-literate circles, use a term a lot. "Troll's Remorse". People who used to have fun, used to have some edge, used to get mean, draw lines and decide people were bad, taking it all bad and either burying it or seeking penance. 343 Industries were Halo's Troll's Remorse arc. The edgy free-range educated libertarian nerds of CE-era Bungie made exactly what Moviebob is talking about, either in an act of deliberate iconoclasm towards the faggotry of mainstream American culture and a testament to everything they loved and valued, or more likely, they just wanted something cool and didn't really think about how extreme they were getting until it was all said and done. Bungie themselves, what was left of the core team, got worn down into just making weaker, less character-driven works. But 343, the inheritors of the brand, they spent a decade on active ideological "correction". You can yell at them about weapon sandbox balance, or boring confusing villain motivations but the actual problem here is that they are faggots who have been conditioned to feel fear whenever they see something cool. You can't direct that class of person into making something good with your notes. While the 90s dark libertarian proto-chud, if you just leave him alone and let him relax he'll make something awesome. You leave him alone for 20 years he'll become a Nazi and make something revolutionary.

Halo: Combat Evolved is what something approaching spiritual health looks like. The culture which produced this was healing and growing in strength. By contrast, what do Halos 4, 5, and Infinite feel like? They look to me like arrogant self-mutilation followed by desperate insincere and superficial scrambling to imitate the past. Rather strong parallel for the trajectory of America across these games. I could elaborate much further, but might spare you all for now.

Sibelius, you are very right to draw attention to the class of person working at 343.

Joss Whedon deserves to be burned at the stake for ruining all forms of media.
If Joss Whedon was a pure champion of the libtard ideology, exactly what they wanted exerting force over the world, then The Woke wouldn't have conspired to destroy him. Alongside Harvey Weinstein (old falling power-player) he is the only man who can be said to have had his career destroyed by 'Me-Too'. If you read accounts of him written since, it's clear that it's not the upset girlfriends this is about. There are constant anecdotes of him calling people stupid assholes for their shit script contributions. Joss Whedon was a white guy who really cared about his work, and his fundamental problem was that he took it all too seriously.

I haven't seen much of his stuff because all American television strikes me as vomitive, but I understand he was writing visual anime homages into his work, he was looking for hot or cute women, he wanted tv to be fun. Yes he wrote powerful women in that obnoxious nerd way. But shit, Hayao Miyazaki also writes 'Strong Women'. And what they have in common is that they want to have sex with their heroines (especially based in Miyazaki's case since he had the balls to make his all 14 years old). Which goes back to the yoghurt ad I started on. Superficially that crap looks like Miyazaki, but the roots of Miyazaki's work are his appreciation of nature, nazi war machines, and his worldview which is fundamentally a kind of hypocritical hippie national socialism. When you feel this in your heart all of the fine details don't need notes. You feel what's right. Everyone in the yoghurt ad is some kind of Sowetomaxxed gook-spigger hybrid. Miyazaki's movies are all set in the eternal aryan victory timeline. Nobody needs to discuss this at Ghibli. It goes without saying.

Whedon wrote strong women, but they have at least as much in common with anime heroines as whatever the fuck is happening on American tv now. He wrote retarded quirky dialogue. But he wanted to have fun. I think in how he wrote speech he was like a Tarantino with less taste. Comic books instead of Scorsese. He was more neurotic, thoughtful, purposeful and audience-oriented in his writing than any of his peers. He was naturally set to dominate in a complacent media environment. It was his domination that brought about his undoing. He was a pioneer for attitudes that could make tv and American pop-culture better, or destroy it all. His work feels like the end of boomer tv, boomer culture, static boring world of mainstream culture about nothing.

You want to burn him at the stake. Did you forget that already happened?

These authors don't exactly hate what they're working on - they like it, but ironically.
Which is even worse.
They like it hypocritically. Which is even worse.
 

Takamori

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I blame my own Millennial generation for this, fucking retards grew up with Capeshit slop and Joss Wheadon humor .

And the worse part is that we had access to the old 80's action movies and even the 90's good stuff. I ask myself how we went full decline with this garbage.
 

RaggleFraggle

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the people making it literally hate what they are doing.
Really? Why not make something they actually like? You're never gonna have the passion to do something well if you don't actually like the subject matter!
Probably because games, especially pre-existing franchises, have massive audiences. These people probably do some mental gymnastics and conclude that the pain of working on something they hate is eclipsed by the 'good' they are doing pushing 'The Message' and subverting the existing property to something that meets their standards.
That's stupid. The entire point of art is expressing yourself. Do it honestly or don't do it at all.

I blame my own Millennial generation for this, fucking retards grew up with Capeshit slop and Joss Wheadon humor .
As a late millennial, I think the 90s and 00s were the swan song of the age of sincerity. Back then you still had earnest stories like Halo, while subversive fiction like Verhoven's excretable Starship Troopers movie were still in the early stage of infection. There are so many dead sincere IPs from this era that I would love to revive.
 

Takamori

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I blame my own Millennial generation for this, fucking retards grew up with Capeshit slop and Joss Wheadon humor .
So they grew up with Gen-X things but the latter are not to blame?
Its the old tale of who is the worse the fag or the fag enabler. I mean Gen X created this spawn of retardation so not making totally immune to the criticism, but at the same time who accepted this product was Millenials. No product exist without market acceptance and as this product became successful guess what the board of directors will want to milk dry the slop until it falls into irrelevance.
 

StaticSpine

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Man, I love my stuff to be dead serious.
All that fourth wall breaks and reliance on memes that get old faster than stuff is released. Ugh.

I also remembered the first Diablo games, how somber they felt, man...
 

Maxie

Wholesome Chungus
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This is a valid complaint. But keep in mind, this is something that people "on the other side" have also noticed and begun to complain about. For example, I feel like the "cozy games" trend represents a pushback against irony and insincerity.

(Notice some of the reactions from Codexers when I used that term in this thread: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...th-turn-based-combat-coming-next-year.151421/)
cozy gaming itself has strayed far from being actually meant to relax (like Atelier) and towards wearing the 'wholesome' (actually loathsome) skinsuit of tropey self-referential tripe people with sensory overload shit out for other people with sensory overload. like Atelier's newer entries.
 

La vie sexuelle

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Complaining about the lack of sincerity reminds me too much of David Foster Wallace, his critique of irony and his whole postulate of new sincerity.

Irony is as old as time. It is even at the base of the first true philosophy, Socratic philosophy. Thanks to irony, we explore boundaries and remind ourselves of their importance. Or rather, we can do it if we are not nihilist idiots.

If I were to trace the origins of the millennium's writing, woke, or generalization of the problems of our world, I would say that the most basic values have been undermined and replaced by a peculiar cult of certain pop culture motifs, with the simultaneous obligation to personally build identity, without any pre-imposed patterns. Is it so strange that people choose the stupidest possible answers? I also don't think that contemporary writing is ironic in relation to the main content, because it is too expensive (hence the obsession with treating fictional characters as some sort of compensatory fantasies). I would rather say that if something is treated with irony here, it is traditional values, and more broadly, everything that has to do with common sense. However, I don't think we can equate humor with irony. I would rather say that humor creates a base for the blade of irony as an air cushion against criticism, and besides, humor is a child's laughter towards his most beloved toys.
In my opinion, politics and ideology are just the cherry on top, the last attempt of the childish, nihilistic mind to make sense when all we know are the shallow pleasures of pop culture, which are taken more seriously than they deserve because they are an essential part of our identity.

But I don't see the answer in any form of new sincerity. As long as we do not have solid moral foundations and values, we will just be complaining twats like Wallace mentioned at the beginning.
 

Iucounu

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the people making it literally hate what they are doing.
Really? Why not make something they actually like? You're never gonna have the passion to do something well if you don't actually like the subject matter!
Nobody's paying them to do that.

Maybe they hope to get a foothold inside the business while waiting to be discovered as an original writer, but after a couple of years they've burned out any creativity they may have once possesed.

Other writers make a living from something completely different (like working on a farm), there's more hope for them.
 

Naraya

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Tuono-Tabr
Man, I love my stuff to be dead serious.
All that fourth wall breaks and reliance on memes that get old faster than stuff is released. Ugh.

I also remembered the first Diablo games, how somber they felt, man...
Weeeellll, we had the "biiig mushroom" line in the first Diablo though.
 
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