The Last Of Us 2 - now with protagonist-murdering trannies

[Draxylon]

Spoiler

What I don't understand is what triggers Ellie her sudden drastic decission.

Spoiler

IMO the problem is that while I could understand why Ellie would forgive Abby, the way the game presented it felt very strange, and as you say, "drastic". I need to rewatch it definitely, because even when I could easily buy the "blood on hands -> Joel flashback" trigger for her trying to kill Abby, buying the second flashback that felt pretty sloppy (basically abusing the same narrative tool twice in a row) was harder. We do see Ellie get progressively more broken as she kills Nora and then afterwards Mel and Owen, since unlike the other WLF members she kills those three are some of the most human in that she doesn't randomly kill them in a battlefield, and instead show how much they care about Abby (showing again that Abby isn't just random villain, but a human being with people who deeply care about her).

If I'm not mistaken the cutscene at the very end, in the farm, explains why Ellie acted the way she did: the whole affair with forgiving Joel despite what she felt was basically him ruining her life (saving her from the Fireflies and making her life have no meaning, out of selfish reasons). Just as she was willing to forgive Joel, she also understands why people would be out to kill him as well and can see the parallel. But again, I need to rewatch that whole beach-ending sequence just to make sure I'm not headcanonning my way out of hamfisted writing.

Spoiler

I could buy your explanation. That's a good ending with a clear development of character. It is so easy how you write it in a few lines... But don't you agree they failed to translate that in the proper game? We don't see any hesitation in Ellie. She don't tremble putting the gun in Lev's head. The developers/writer could made the fight longer, scripting Ellie almost dying and having flashbacks about the unnecesary deaths and pain. They could made Lev shouting "don't kill her" and crying. Those elements and a final flashback of Joel could made a perfect, and most important, an UNDERSTANDING end to this. They could made those slights additions to the act and the player would experienced the sudden change of mind and even feel identified with it. The way they did is cumbersome. At that moment you feel like you should take control of Abby and kill Ellie, because she is a fucking psychopath(Ellie) and the game "forced" you to like Abby.
The moral was also "stop the revenge never-ending cycle": Ok, you have Lev there that could made Ellie (and the player) see how to stop it. Then you can add also Joel, but... please, this is supposed to be written by a famed writer. The simplistic way to resolve this amazed me.

 

[Sigourn]

Actually, the issue is that she didn't want revenge anymore... before she forced Abby to fight her!!!

There are two significant, separate sections in the game regarding Ellie and Abby:

1. From the moment Joel dies to the moment Ellie gets her shit beaten.
   
2. From the moment Ellie lives with Dina to the moment Ellie spares Ellie.

Section 1 is your standard "revenge plot". Joel dies, Ellie wants revenge and sets out to kill Abby.
Section 2 is a whole different thing. It is not Ellie hurting for revenge. It's Ellie hurting for going back to when she was the master of her own life, that is, before Joel died. And Ellie forcing Abby's hand by threating Lev was her own desperate attempt at making the memory of a dying Joel go (that is, "If I kill her then maybe the pain will go away"). But as the player knows, from playing as Abby, getting revenge is not going to make the pain go away. What we see Ellie begin to do at the end of the game is what Abby started to do the moment she found a new purpose in Lev and Yara. People make the mistake of comparing two characters who are on completely different moments of their respective journeys: Ellie has just begun to live her life again, and Abby was on her way to do that before she even beat Ellie to a pulp.

Had Abby killed Dina (and maybe Ellie, who knows if she would have stopped at Dina), no doubt she would go on to be as broken as Ellie was during the beach section. There's no going back from slicing a pregnant's woman's neck in front of her lover while saying "good", if not for Lev this would have indeed been a misery porn game.

About the ending, I'm still conflicted about it because while I agree that Ellie should have let Abby go from the start (everyone goes to their own boat and that's the end), not only would have been anti-climactic, but also out of character. Ellie doesn't spare Abby because Abby has been through a lot at the hands of the Rattlers. In fact I don't think Ellie even cares if Abby and Lev sink a few minutes later. She spares her over coming to terms with Joel's death and his last encounter with him.

Now, after rewatching the beach scene I do agree that the flashback at the porch feels really fucking weird. It comes out of the blue, and I'm guessing the relief I felt for Ellie not killing Abby was what made me not think about it too much, whereas the hate people felt at Abby for surviving is precisely what made them think a lot about it. Only later, at the end of the game, do we have a better idea as to why Ellie did this: just as in that final meeting with Joel she begins to forgiving what she considered to be an unforgiveable action, she does the same with Abby.

As Draxylon said, however, there should have been more emphasis made on the similarities between Joel/Ellie and Abby/Lev. Abby surviving is something that I'm perfectly fine with after seeing the whole picture, but the truth is Ellie doesn't even know the specific why as to why Abby did what she did (she thinks it's just Abby killing Joel for destroying their chances at a cure, when it is actually for killing her father).

Overall, writing this comment as made me understand better why people hate Abby surviving that much. Because of how poorly that scene was done, Ellie's decision appears to come out of the blue: those who wanted Abby alive will enjoy it, those who didn't won't, but at the end of the day both players are in the exact same situation, which is not precisely understanding right there "why the hell did she spare her?" and, afterwards, in the porch flashback, "this doesn't seem particularly clear to me".

 

[toro]

Neil was edgy from the beginning.

Yeah, G-Man would be Giz-Ma'am.

 

[Tehdagah]

White people kill all the diversity cast. Elly tortures and kills the proud African woman with a pipe. Tommy headshots the mexican. Abby headshots the Asian and tries to cut the head off the Jew. The only anomaly is Antifa gunning down the Asian sister of the tranny, oh and said tranny surviving being crucified by MAGA slavers

The important lesson to take from this is that social justice goons eventually break everything down (through post modernism, nihilism, and general de-constructive nature) into an inverted hierarchy based solely on mob rule and objectives obtained via violence and war. So much for the peace pipe smoking rainbow brigade. It's all fiction, and not even good fiction at that.

And speaking of fiction, old rule of thumb: if you can't make a good story using interesting characters, then you try and make a good story by killing off mediocre ones.

Thought the game's message was "violence bad"? I was curious about the "MAGA faction" and did a quick research about them, apparently they:

- Live in California
- Half of them are non-white. In fact the first one that is presented to the player looks like a dark-skinned latino
- Slave people, forcing them to work in plantations of... vegetables
- Infect some prisoners and turn them into zombies guard dogs
- Half of their prisoners are white
- Punish dissidents by tying them to wood beams in a beach until they die of insolation

Doesn't sound like a jab at Trump supporters at all (maybe there's a hidden joke somewhere?). Makes me think about how much of the criticism the game is receiving is based on misinformation and half-truths, especially with all those right-wing e-celebs (who didn't play the game) parachuting in the middle of the discussion.

Also what he described isn't the story, it's just a short resume of the events. How did the characters felt after these actions? Did they change? Who/what motivated the changes? At the end of the story how the characters see themselves? Etc etc etc

 

[toro]

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Nice, you guys managed to get through to a "dont ask questions, consume product" drone

 

[Drakron]

"Stuff"

No, the problem is Abby is a sociopath that never shows remorse over Joel death that was, in case you forget, entirely premeditated simply because Joel in self-defense killed Abby father who was going to kill Ellie because science. It gets worst because Abby tracks down and kills Joel for revenge but spares Ellie because otherwise there would be no game, thats it ... Abby would realistic kill Ellie either because Ellie would always come back and one day finish the job or because Abby would be forced to do it in self-defense, yet since the story needs Ellie we get these out of character decisions as well those "coincidences" and this is why the plot is a mess.

In the end Abby gets her happy ending, sure she lost people but compared with Ellie that loses everything ... Abby gets better off and Abby is the instigator, unapologetic and shows a utter lack of empathy towards Ellie since she causes Ellie to go over the exact same loss she suffered and apparently Ellie can just "forget and move on" according to Abby who didnt forget and move on.

Also Abby doesnt kill Dina because that would remove the whole "Ellie chooses revenge" when she learns were Abby could be, Dina being killed would make Ellie simply have no choice and her loss would be completed at that point and there is no way Ellie would ever stop going after the person that made her lose everything or that Abby would be spared, also Ellie should have killed Abby BTW simply because then Ellie would have her revenge and that would amount to nothing that should been the point, instead Abby who gets her revenge gets off far better that Ellie does.

 

[Sigourn]

No, the problem is Abby is a sociopath that never shows remorse over Joel death that was, in case you forget, entirely premeditated simply because Joel in self-defense killed Abby father who was going to kill Ellie because science.

Did you want Abby to say "God, I feel remorse over Joel's death"? Because she was never going to say that, that's not who Abby is. Not every character must speak their mind. Abby's actions at taking after Yara and Lev are her way of coping with what she did to Joel.

It gets worst because Abby tracks down and kills Joel for revenge but spares Ellie because otherwise there would be no game, thats it

Wrong. She spares Ellie and Tommy because she is not after them. She was after Joel, and only Joel. Had they got in her way, Abby would have surely killed them. But they were already pinned down, and knocked out.

This

Abby would realistic kill Ellie either because Ellie would always come back and one day finish the job

is what you would have done. Not Abby. Your next comment is the same juvenile shit I've been reading for weeks already, "BUT ABBY HAS THE TRANS KID, SHE WON!".

Also Abby doesnt kill Dina because

Lev asks her to stop, correct.

Dina being killed would make Ellie simply have no choice and her loss would be completed at that point and there is no way Ellie would ever stop going after the person that made her lose everything or that Abby would be spared

Precisely, which is what would have me the rest of the story a very boring by-the-book revenge plot where John Wick kills Viggo's son and that's it. But because Dina doesn't die, the way ends the way it does.

also Ellie should have killed Abby BTW

This would have been fucking stupid BTW.

I encourage you to stop viewing the story as "Ellie vs Abby" and more about "Ellie vs Ellie" and "Abby vs Abby". Perhaps that way you will have an easier time understanding how their quest for revenge and their aftermaths cost these two people most of their loved ones. Oh, and it seems you forgot Dina is alive, so Ellie at least gets a chance to rebuild her relationship with her. Meanwhile, Owen? Nope, he is dead. Tough luck Abby, I hope you like boys with pussies.

 

[Olinser]

You know, I'm about 95% sure that from the bullshit that Cuckman and company have been spewing, and their rabid insistence on sticking to their guns, that I can guess the plot of the 3rd game (if there even IS a 3rd game).

Abby re-creates the Fireflies and they are now primarily interested in transgender surgeries, but now they're confident that they can use Ellie's brain to 'cure' the fungus. Ellie finds a whole bunch of evidence that Joel was a secret closet racist, and agrees to the operation. Tommy shows up and suddenly goes on a racist rant about how nobody else deserves to live and she's spitting on Joel's memory. Abby and Ellie both kill Tommy together, Ellie lies down on the table to get her brain dissected, and her last words are 'fuck you Joel.'

I challenge anybody to come up with something more likely.

 

[GhostCow]

This thread was a lot more fun when we were just making fun of how retarded and Jewish this shit is than it is now that people are acting like this piece of shit is worth discussing seriously

 

[DalekFlay]

If this shit doesn't hurt Tlou2 sales then I don't know what will.

More likely it hurts TLoU3's sales. Usually sequels suffer from the reaction to the last entry. Tons of people have bought and will buy TLoU2 because they loved the original and don't pay much attention.

 

[Cyclone]

If this shit doesn't hurt Tlou2 sales then I don't know what will.

More likely it hurts TLoU3's sales. Usually sequels suffer from the reaction to the last entry. Tons of people have bought and will buy TLoU2 because they loved the original and don't pay much attention.

TLoU sold 20M+ over its lifetime; TLoU2 has sold probably something like 5-6M thus far? Games have a long tail, and making a shit game really hurts that.

 

[DalekFlay]

TLoU sold 20M+ over its lifetime; TLoU2 has sold probably something like 5-6M thus far? Games have a long tail, and making a shit game really hurts that.

You're right games have a longer tail than movies, which is my main hobby and point of comparison. We'll see I guess. I doubt Sony would admit disappointment publicly anyway for fear of reprisal.

 

[vota DC]

Druckmann Is a retarded narrator.

Episode 1 of telltale walking dead: Lee can say shit or manure. Clementine will be vulgar or nerd with duck depending on your choice and Katja will react to It. You may feel sorry if you chosen shit.

Druckmann "press x to kill" otherwise you can't go. You are a horrible person, look what have you done!

Also "I will slice Lev's throat despite he asked you to spare me, but I won't kill you because you are Neil's waifu". Poor Lev Is doomed to die: people in Catalina will surely kill "them". Also Is liked by resetera people and Neil want to be sure to piss everyone.

 

[Sigourn]

Druckmann "press x to kill" otherwise you can't go. You are a horrible person, look what have you done!

When did this happen in TLOU2, in a way that

1. Was meant for the player to feel disgust at what they did instead of what Ellie or Abby did
2. and was completely forced even though it wasn't realistically necessary for progression?

I always hear about "the pupperino" but "the pupperino" was trying to bit Ellie's throat off, and in pretty much in any game dying is grounds for "game over", so that was anything but forced.

 

[Olinser]

Druckmann "press x to kill" otherwise you can't go. You are a horrible person, look what have you done!

When did this happen in TLOU2, in a way that

1. Was meant for the player to feel disgust at what they did instead of what Ellie or Abby did
2. and was completely forced even though it wasn't realistically necessary for progression?

I always hear about "the pupperino" but "the pupperino" was trying to bit Ellie's throat off, and in pretty much in any game dying is grounds for "game over", so that was anything but forced.

Why are you replying to a blatantly obvious bot?

 

[Matador]

This thread was a lot more fun when we were just making fun of how retarded and Jewish this shit is than it is now that people are acting like this piece of shit is worth discussing seriously

Now that we are distracted with other games and bored about the subject, forces of evil try to compromise the truth and rewrite the narrative.

They are being subtle and timid because their defeat was spectacular.

 

[vota DC]

Druckmann "press x to kill" otherwise you can't go. You are a horrible person, look what have you done!

When did this happen in TLOU2, in a way that

1. Was meant for the player to feel disgust at what they did instead of what Ellie or Abby did
2. and was completely forced even though it wasn't realistically necessary for progression?

I always hear about "the pupperino" but "the pupperino" was trying to bit Ellie's throat off, and in pretty much in any game dying is grounds for "game over", so that was anything but forced.

Funny thing Is they retcon everything few seconds later in a pathetic attempt to make you feel bad. Surgeon wasn't attacking you with a scalpel, dog wasn't attacking you and so on. Surgeon in first game dies for a bullet on his toe he is Simpson Neymar.

 

[Sigourn]

Funny thing Is they retcon everything few seconds later in a pathetic attempt to make you feel bad. Surgeon wasn't attacking you with a scalpel, dog wasn't attacking you and so on. Surgeon in first game dies for a bullet on his toe he is Simpson Neymar.

Game shows you Abby's dad holding a scalpel against Joel in the first five minutes of the game.
"Dog wasn't attacking you", how? The only time we see how the dog dies is when we play as Ellie. When we return to the aquarium as Abby, the dog is (rightfully) dead. Are you sure you didn't retcon your brain out of existence?

 

[Forest Dweller]

On the whole "Ellie forgiving Abby at the end" and it supposedly not making sense, here's how I interpret it.

You have to think about why she goes after Abby again at the end. It's because she keeps getting haunted by images of Joel, having panic attacks, not being able to sleep - all despite apparently having "moved on" while at the farmhouse with Dina. She says all this to Dina when she decides to leave. She thinks that finally killing Abby will make this stop, but it won't, because it's evading the core issue.

What's really haunting her is the fact that she never forgave Joel for saving her life at the Firefly base. This is shown in the last flashback, where she says to him "I can't forgive you for what you did, but I'd like to try." This turns out to be the last thing she said to him (he's killed the next day). Think about that. That's how she left things with him, having not yet forgiven him, but admitting the possibility of it in the future. But she never gets the chance to fully make amends with him, and this is why she can't move on.

When she'd finally in the act of killing Abby, she realizes that killing her won't help her to move on, because she's simply been using Abby as a proxy for her unresolved feelings over Joel. That's why the image of Joel flashes before her eyes in that moment. So she lets Abby go. But it's not really about forgiving Abby - it's about forgiving Joel.

Now, you could say that she could still kill Abby anyway, and that's true, but consider the circumstances as well at the end. She finds Abby emaciated and crucified, having spent months in slavery. When Ellie cuts her down her first act is to immediately go after the boy. She's not interested in fighting Ellie at all, in fact she refuses to and willingly accepts her fate at Ellie's hands until Ellie actually threatens said boy. She's basically a completely different person at this point. Ellie can see this as well, despite the fact that she forces her to fight. So this also contributes to her decision to let her go.

Then at the end of the game, we get that final flashback. And I do think it was put at that spot for a reason. The way I interpret that final scene is that, in that moment, Ellie finally forgave Joel for saving her life, and because of this she's able to finally move on, and in turn start to truly value her life. That's why I think the game ends on a somewhat hopeful note - not for Abby, but for Ellie.

Also, I definitely don't think Ellie "lost everything." It seems pretty clear that Dina went back to Jackson, and it seems likely that that's where Ellie heads off to as well. I see no reason why they can't get back together, especially now that Ellie is "done for good." Plus there's a whole community there which presumably still cares about her.

 

[Alphard]

who who damn cares, the game is shit, the worst kind of shit, the shit that pretend to be a good deep philosophical moral dilemma about choices while still being fecal matter

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

On the whole "Ellie forgiving Abby at the end" and it supposedly not making sense, here's how I interpret it.

You have to think about why she goes after Abby again at the end. It's because she keeps getting haunted by images of Joel, having panic attacks, not being able to sleep - all despite apparently having "moved on" while at the farmhouse with Dina. She says all this to Dina when she decides to leave. She thinks that finally killing Abby will make this stop, but it won't, because it's evading the core issue.

What's really haunting her is the fact that she never forgave Joel for saving her life at the Firefly base. This is shown in the last flashback, where she says to him "I can't forgive you for what you did, but I'd like to try." This turns out to be the last thing she said to him (he's killed the next day). Think about that. That's how she left things with him, having not yet forgiven him, but admitting the possibility of it in the future. But she never gets the chance to fully make amends with him, and this is why she can't move on.

When she'd finally in the act of killing Abby, she realizes that killing her won't help her to move on, because she's simply been using Abby as a proxy for her unresolved feelings over Joel. That's why the image of Joel flashes before her eyes in that moment. So she lets Abby go. But it's not really about forgiving Abby - it's about forgiving Joel.

Now, you could say that she could still kill Abby anyway, and that's true, but consider the circumstances as well at the end. She finds Abby emaciated and crucified, having spent months in slavery. When Ellie cuts her down her first act is to immediately go after the boy. She's not interested in fighting Ellie at all, in fact she refuses to and willingly accepts her fate at Ellie's hands until Ellie actually threatens said boy. She's basically a completely different person at this point. Ellie can see this as well, despite the fact that she forces her to fight. So this also contributes to her decision to let her go.

Then at the end of the game, we get that final flashback. And I do think it was put at that spot for a reason. The way I interpret that final scene is that, in that moment, Ellie finally forgave Joel for saving her life, and because of this she's able to finally move on, and in turn start to truly value her life. That's why I think the game ends on a somewhat hopeful note - not for Abby, but for Ellie.

Also, I definitely don't think Ellie "lost everything." It seems pretty clear that Dina went back to Jackson, and it seems likely that that's where Ellie heads off to as well. I see no reason why they can't get back together, especially now that Ellie is "done for good." Plus there's a whole community there which presumably still cares about her.

That whole „Ellie is mad at Joel for saving her life“ shtick is fucking stupid. That fact alone makes your drivel obsolete.

 

[Lagole Gon]

 

[Olinser]

On the whole "Ellie forgiving Abby at the end" and it supposedly not making sense, here's how I interpret it.

You have to think about why she goes after Abby again at the end. It's because she keeps getting haunted by images of Joel, having panic attacks, not being able to sleep - all despite apparently having "moved on" while at the farmhouse with Dina. She says all this to Dina when she decides to leave. She thinks that finally killing Abby will make this stop, but it won't, because it's evading the core issue.

What's really haunting her is the fact that she never forgave Joel for saving her life at the Firefly base. This is shown in the last flashback, where she says to him "I can't forgive you for what you did, but I'd like to try." This turns out to be the last thing she said to him (he's killed the next day). Think about that. That's how she left things with him, having not yet forgiven him, but admitting the possibility of it in the future. But she never gets the chance to fully make amends with him, and this is why she can't move on.

When she'd finally in the act of killing Abby, she realizes that killing her won't help her to move on, because she's simply been using Abby as a proxy for her unresolved feelings over Joel. That's why the image of Joel flashes before her eyes in that moment. So she lets Abby go. But it's not really about forgiving Abby - it's about forgiving Joel.

Now, you could say that she could still kill Abby anyway, and that's true, but consider the circumstances as well at the end. She finds Abby emaciated and crucified, having spent months in slavery. When Ellie cuts her down her first act is to immediately go after the boy. She's not interested in fighting Ellie at all, in fact she refuses to and willingly accepts her fate at Ellie's hands until Ellie actually threatens said boy. She's basically a completely different person at this point. Ellie can see this as well, despite the fact that she forces her to fight. So this also contributes to her decision to let her go.

Then at the end of the game, we get that final flashback. And I do think it was put at that spot for a reason. The way I interpret that final scene is that, in that moment, Ellie finally forgave Joel for saving her life, and because of this she's able to finally move on, and in turn start to truly value her life. That's why I think the game ends on a somewhat hopeful note - not for Abby, but for Ellie.

Also, I definitely don't think Ellie "lost everything." It seems pretty clear that Dina went back to Jackson, and it seems likely that that's where Ellie heads off to as well. I see no reason why they can't get back together, especially now that Ellie is "done for good." Plus there's a whole community there which presumably still cares about her.

That whole „Ellie is mad at Joel for saving her life“ shtick is fucking stupid. That fact alone makes your drivel obsolete.

ESPECIALLY because there's clear and convincing evidence that the whole 'JOEL SACRIFICED HUMANITY TO SAVE WORLD REEEEE' isn't even true.

She wasn't even the first, or even the 2nd immune that the Fireflies had found and killed. They'd already cut multiple ones apart, and they STILL didn't have a cure. And even IF they succeeded in finding it, they're all fucking scumbags, they wouldn't distribute the cure to everybody out of the goodness of their hearts.

Joel 100% made the right decision, and Cuckman and staff literally spit on his grave trying to make him wrong.

 

[Dexter]

TLoU sold 20M+ over its lifetime; TLoU2 has sold probably something like 5-6M thus far? Games have a long tail, and making a shit game really hurts that.

4,8 million apparently 16 days after release: https://gamstat.com/games/
Spooder-Man apparently had 5,8 million 16 days after it's release.
Now you know why they're panicking and going all "HALP, we're being harassed!", they've barely managed to sell any more copies after their Pre-Order and first week release period.