KickStarter The Legends of Eisenwald Thread

[Vault Dweller]

And that's the biggest issue with KS - it funds shit but creates an illusion that a project is fully funded.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

And that's the biggest issue with KS - it funds shit but creates an illusion that a project is fully funded.

Yes. We even had a potential investor who wanted to get full control of our studio by giving us 75k. He said - but you wrote that Kickstarter gave you 75k and that's how you made the game. I had a feeling that he didn't buy my explanations that games cost much more to make.

Kickstarter is a good option to show an investor that a game has some potential, or to fund smaller things. We might use it for an addon. It really doesn't cost a lot to do and yet the funds would allow us to make something bigger than a single map DLC.

 

[agris]

Have you considered partnering with a publisher of niche games? If sales are the issue, I think your visibility as a dev could be improved with some targeted marketing.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Have you considered partnering with a publisher of niche games? If sales are the issue, I think your visibility as a dev could be improved with some targeted marketing.

Looking for one right now

 

[zeitgeist]

And that's the biggest issue with KS - it funds shit but creates an illusion that a project is fully funded.

It does not.

The developers themselves create that illusion by not being honest and outright saying "this Kickstarter donation drive will fund 5% of the development cost, if we don't get the rest from other sources, you've thrown your money down the well because we in reality have little interest in creating a work of art, what we primarily want is to monetize it". If they "forget" to state that, it's only natural to assume that the amount they're begging for on Kickstarter is in fact the budget for the game.

But I guess having some free money is better than none.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If they state it openly, who'd back their projects? Thus those who ask for what they need fail because the perception is that it's too much, whereas those who ask for what they can get become successful campaigners.

 

[zeitgeist]

If they state it openly, who'd back their projects?

Exactly.

Thus those who ask for what they need fail because the perception is that it's too much, whereas those who ask for what they can get become successful campaigners.

But if the entire system is so obviously set up in such a way that your project depends on essentially scamming people (probably multiple times), and the developers are voluntarily becoming part of that system, I don't have anything good to say about them.

I realize that KS does encourage this, due to little or no accountability for the KS beggars and other factors that we all know by now, but the main fault still lies in the developers, their organizational abilities, and the level of personal sacrifice they're prepared to make in order to realize their vision. I mean, they could always get a day job, right?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Like you said, some money is better than no money, so taking what you can does seem to be the "smart" option. Can't fault people for taking what they can and hoping for the best (that it will be enough to make it to Early Access or enough to attract investors or enough to start a second KS, etc) when the system itself encourages it.

 

[Celerity]

Yeah, that's a thing a lot of people don't get Aterdux Entertainment. The cost of producing games IS cheap, however you spend a great deal more money on the salary of the men and women working on it. Kickstarter might reflect the raw costs of hardware, software licenses and so on but if your people can't eat they're either spending most of their time at another job or not making a game at all.

Have you considered contacting 2K? Much of their games are strategy based (Civlization, XCOM, etc). They do have a reasonably strong reputation.

 

[Celerity]

Indivisible asked for 1,500,000 dollars. They were very honest about this, explained why they needed that much, then explained that still was not enough, but that they would recieve the rest from their publisher (2 million more). They hit their goal. They were a company that had already produced a game and already established a reputation for themselves.

You're a bit smaller than Lab Zero and strategy RPGs are a bit smaller than turn based RPG/fighting game hybrids but not THAT much. If you "only" need half a million, it might actually work if you get some legitimate media on board (meaning not the non gamers at Kotaku, Polygon, etc).

 

[Archibald]

Indivisible also managed to get that high because:

1) Their game design allowed to introduce characters from other games and, I'd assume, attract some backers of their fans. For example saying that Shantae will be guest characters in Eisenwald if we reach X goal wouldn't really work.
2) They got their campaign extended because they managed to hit 80% or something like that in the first go.

Edit: But I disagree about strategy rpgs being smaller than turn based rpgs/fighter hybrids since there are like only 5 made in total of these hybrids.

 

[Celerity]

A turn based fighter is almost like a RtWP action RPG with a timed hit mechanic. There's plenty of RtWP, they're overriding turn based on popularity even though some obviously prefer the classic style. Timed hits are also a common, and popular mechanic. Strategy RPGs meanwhile are completely cerebral. While I greatly enjoy them, most people aren't interested in thinking man games anymore. Indivisible is also pretty light on the fighting game elements. You time blocks and use attacks by pressing direction + button. That's about it. It has much more in common with action RPGs.

PS: You could have guest characters from other indie RPGs if they agreed.

 

[Bubbles]

I long for the day when we see a million-Dollar Kickstarter where one of the stretch goals is a Miltiades cameo.

 

[J_C]

I think saying that KS can't fund a game is only true if you are running a studio with more than a few people. You can't fund the salary of 5-10 people for years with KS funds. But if you are a one or two person indie dev who are developing games half-time while having a regular job, then the kickstarter funds can really help to buy some more resources, hire a QA guy or artist for a short period.

 

[Archibald]

I understand that you can have guest characters, point is that they would look out of place in a game like Eisenwald while fitting without problems in a game like Indivisible. Artsyle + incarnates mechanic allows them to pretty much pull out any character they want without damaging their "setting's" integrity.

As for genre, this is a bit of offtopic so I don't think we should go more about this so I'll just say that Valkyrie Profile (inspiration for Indivisible) is fundamentally different game from various action games with pauses despite their superficial similarities.

 

[Gord]

If they state it openly, who'd back their projects?

Exactly.

Still, often also a case for Hanlon's Razor, imo.

A lot of projects are ultimately hurt by bad time management (or naive initial projections of necessary development time) and feature creep from stretch goals.
E.g. Larian had openly stated from the start that D:OS was kickstarted only for additional polish and content and had other funding sources. Yet it both took them longer than anticipated and became much too ambitious with the stretch goals, ultimately requiring them to prematurely release/kill another project (Dragon Commander) to continue developing D:OS - that was hardly their initial plan.

Another thing worth considering is that KS is not "free money", quite the opposite unless you are just scamming people and never intend to release anything anyway.
Usually Kickstarter pledges include your product at a discounted price, which might actually hurt your revenue once the game is released.
With the exception of pointless (and cheap to create) digital merchandise articles as an incentive to fund at higher tiers, having a successful Kickstarter might reduce income in the long run.

 

[Archibald]

I remember there was some case where people miscalculated costs of shipping physical items and ended up spending more money on the rewards than they actually got from KS.

 

[Celerity]

Yeah, that's another factor. Between the time of managing Kickstarter and the money of physical rewards that severely cuts in your profit margins.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Nice comparison us with Lab Zero but of course we are way smaller and with much smaller following. And with 83k Kickstarter raised the first time around, 500k for the second game is simply not realistic. And yes, 500k is the full budget for say Legends of Eisenwald 2 with new troops, firearms and many other cool things. Our team is not big, outsourcing of art is reasonably priced. But we don't believe we can raise even 80-100k, not speaking of 500. Press is writing less about Kickstarter, and I don't know what and where you look but hybrid RPG/Strategies are pretty much gone. No reason beating a dead horse anymore. Complex games are on decline as well, in my opinion. We can make a good story but who looks for a good story in an indie game?

Have you considered contacting 2K? Much of their games are strategy based (Civlization, XCOM, etc). They do have a reasonably strong reputation.

We will defiinitely contact them. But our games have very little strategy in them. Unless we drop the story part and start doing things without it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Indivisible asked for 1,500,000 dollars.

Because they were big enough to get it not because they were honest and it paid off. Skullgirls sold over 700,000 copies, which is quite a bit of change and a very strong following.

 

[mindx2]

Nice comparison us with Lab Zero but of course we are way smaller and with much smaller following. And with 83k Kickstarter raised the first time around, 500k for the second game is simply not realistic. And yes, 500k is the full budget for say Legends of Eisenwald 2 with new troops, firearms and many other cool things. Our team is not big, outsourcing of art is reasonably priced. But we don't believe we can raise even 80-100k, not speaking of 500. Press is writing less about Kickstarter, and I don't know what and where you look but hybrid RPG/Strategies are pretty much gone. No reason beating a dead horse anymore. Complex games are on decline as well, in my opinion. We can make a good story but who looks for a good story in an indie game?

Alex, my friend, you are really depressing me. Your enthusiasm and passion for Eisenwald at PAX was so infectious that hearing you talk like this now... .

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

Alex, my friend, you are really depressing me. Your enthusiasm and passion for Eisenwald at PAX was so infectious that hearing you talk like this now... .

Legends of Eisenwald is released, I am still enthusiastic about what we did Not so enthusiastic about the future though. When things don't work out as you expect it, something has to change. There is a famous quote that goes something like this: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Things changed, times changed, we have to change as well and change what and how we do stuff.

 

[mindx2]

Alex, my friend, you are really depressing me. Your enthusiasm and passion for Eisenwald at PAX was so infectious that hearing you talk like this now... .

Legends of Eisenwald is released, I am still enthusiastic about what we did Not so enthusiastic about the future though. When things don't work out as you expect it, something has to change. There is a famous quote that goes something like this: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Things changed, times changed, we have to change as well and change what and how we do stuff.

I know, I know... it just doesn't make it any easier to hear considering I know where your passion lies.

 

[Gord]

It's certainly sad that it didn't work out as well as you'd hoped.
I'm currently playing your DLC and enjoying it a lot. Would like to see more games like this from you guys in the future.

Using a Mystic now and playing on hard, the DLC is much more challenging than playing the knight in the base-game, which could get a bit too easy at times.

 

[Aterdux Entertainment]

I know, I know... it just doesn't make it any easier to hear considering I know where your passion lies.

I am fairly positive that we will find a way around it. While making this game didn't give us financial freedom we wanted but now we have a good track record of making a game and releasing it. I think we will have a situation where we will be able to choose from multiple options. I'd love to continue to make games in this wonderful medieval dark setting but other fantasy settings would work fine as well for our team.

Things indeed looked better before the release but now all numbers are there and we will have to adjust a little. Hopefully not too much