Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[octavius]

My first (and so far only) time playing MM6 and MM7 was back in 2004. I remember the date because while starting out in MM7 a local junkyard FULL of tyres caught fire and half the city's population had to close their windows while those living nearest to the junkyard had to be evacuated.

And thus Reykjavik lived up to its name?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

And you could never again play a M&M game without remembering the smell of burning rubber? :D

You could say that. Normally that's something people say about racing games, but not me.

And thus Reykjavik lived up to its name?

For once, yes.

 

[Haplo]

Well, I don't remember all the details, but I remember agonizing over class choices in M&MX. My conclusion was that they are almost perfectly balanced and almost all very potent (well, except the Defender).
Each skill access level has a reason and is balanced against other options. Some things may surprise (like lack of GM access for a specific weapon, skill), but it all has been clearly very well though out and the class certainly has other perks. Mercenary from your example doesn't have a weapon GM, but has Warfare GM instead (only him?), which makes up for it.

None of the classes are weak, and you can complete the game with any of the classes, but not all of them are equally strong. There is nothing the Mercenary can do that others can't do better. He has GM Warfare which lets him get an automatic critical hit once every turn by spending mana on it, this is where he shines. The problem is that you're at late-mid to end game when you're able to pick up this ability, and by then he's dealing half of the damage that a Barbarian will do. Grandmaster more than doubles your damage, and this gets more noticeable when you pick up +5/+6 sword/axe/mace gear from the shops. The Mercenary is the ONLY might hero that can't get Grandmaster in a weapon.

I would rate the Defender above than the Mercenary, and he can get both Grandmaster Axe AND Grandmaster Warfare. The problem with the Defender is getting him a good weapon, once you solve that problem he's surprisingly solid. You'll want to build him 3 Might/1 Vitality on level up.

The last party I ran with was able to kill the Cyclops and Shadow Dragon at level 8 (always Warrior difficulty) and I went on to breeze through the game with this party, even one shotting the last bosses. Crusader, Defender, Barbarian and Druid. The Barbarian dealing 1200+ on a critical hit was wonderful to see.

I remember Flawless Assault being an awesome skill and Merc/Windsword absolutely pulling his weight. Not only the attack cannot miss and is unblock-able, but it also prevents further blocks this round. Plus the Windsword Perfect Strike is absolutely great as well. Auto-criticals that cannot be blocked or miss? Perhaps pair that with a stunning weapon for extra cheeze? Yes, please. Defender doesn't have a passive ability like that. And the move ability is usefull as well.
IMO Merc is a top-tier meleer.

Flaweless Assault is an awesome skill, but it costs mana and it requires you to reach Grandmaster in Warfare to get it. This means that you'll first get it once your reach mid-end game, and then you'll only be able to use it a limited amount of times with your mana pool. You're also spending 20+ skill points into Warfare to get this. The Windsword Perfect Strike is far from great, it's an automatic critical hit only on enemies that have FULL health, and it doesn't ignore Block/Evade, etc. So you need to strike the target, and then the target needs to have full health. It has very limited use because it's only against enemies with 100% health and it doesn't ignore block, and Flaweless assault is just a better option. You're also at mid-end game before you're getting your promotion and picking up this ability. The Mercenary fills a unique role if you're using him as a stun bot while dual wielding a sword and mace, and then you're trading damage for stuns. The second ability on the Windsword (movement) is really good, but the perfect strike not so much. Neither the Defender nor the Mercenary are top tier, and I'll take a defender over Mercenary. Both the Barbarian and Bladedancer deal so much more damage than the Mercenary. The Mercenary has a few niché things that it brings (stun bot, etc), but it just doesn't make up for the loss in Grandmaster. I always keep a Crusader in my party (the most OP class in the game), so my melee never have problem with blocking.

Might Classes:
Top tier - Bladedancer, Barbarian.
Mid tier - Defender, Mercenary.

Relaying on Warfare skills, you can skip Perception altogether on the Mercenary and just max Might. Few other Characters have that option.
By the time you reach GM levels, mana pots should not be an issue. Sure you'll "waste" every 4th-6th round to drink but still worth it IMO. Plus you prevent enemy blocks for the rest of the party and protect them from wasting their attacks for nothing (perhaps Crusader can do that too, I think his skill was bugged back when I was playing).

 

[Zdzisiu]

My first time with M&M 6 was back in 2001 when a local magazine "Świat Gier Komputerowych" had it as a full version on two CD. Only in English but for 14 year old me it was good enough.

But a fun and embarrassing fact. For some reason I don't remember having the music in game even then. I know that it was an Audio CD so you had to have the cd in your cd rom for it to play, but I don't remember any music playing in the game. And when I replayed the game a couple of year ago, it was a Gog version so you had to either make your own Audio CD or go without music. Since I didnt know that the game even had music, I went without it again.

But today, you inspired me to get the music working with Greyface patch, and now I can listen to the sweet tunes for the first time!

 

[SionIV]

Well, I don't remember all the details, but I remember agonizing over class choices in M&MX. My conclusion was that they are almost perfectly balanced and almost all very potent (well, except the Defender).
Each skill access level has a reason and is balanced against other options. Some things may surprise (like lack of GM access for a specific weapon, skill), but it all has been clearly very well though out and the class certainly has other perks. Mercenary from your example doesn't have a weapon GM, but has Warfare GM instead (only him?), which makes up for it.

None of the classes are weak, and you can complete the game with any of the classes, but not all of them are equally strong. There is nothing the Mercenary can do that others can't do better. He has GM Warfare which lets him get an automatic critical hit once every turn by spending mana on it, this is where he shines. The problem is that you're at late-mid to end game when you're able to pick up this ability, and by then he's dealing half of the damage that a Barbarian will do. Grandmaster more than doubles your damage, and this gets more noticeable when you pick up +5/+6 sword/axe/mace gear from the shops. The Mercenary is the ONLY might hero that can't get Grandmaster in a weapon.

I would rate the Defender above than the Mercenary, and he can get both Grandmaster Axe AND Grandmaster Warfare. The problem with the Defender is getting him a good weapon, once you solve that problem he's surprisingly solid. You'll want to build him 3 Might/1 Vitality on level up.

The last party I ran with was able to kill the Cyclops and Shadow Dragon at level 8 (always Warrior difficulty) and I went on to breeze through the game with this party, even one shotting the last bosses. Crusader, Defender, Barbarian and Druid. The Barbarian dealing 1200+ on a critical hit was wonderful to see.

I remember Flawless Assault being an awesome skill and Merc/Windsword absolutely pulling his weight. Not only the attack cannot miss and is unblock-able, but it also prevents further blocks this round. Plus the Windsword Perfect Strike is absolutely great as well. Auto-criticals that cannot be blocked or miss? Perhaps pair that with a stunning weapon for extra cheeze? Yes, please. Defender doesn't have a passive ability like that. And the move ability is usefull as well.
IMO Merc is a top-tier meleer.

Flaweless Assault is an awesome skill, but it costs mana and it requires you to reach Grandmaster in Warfare to get it. This means that you'll first get it once your reach mid-end game, and then you'll only be able to use it a limited amount of times with your mana pool. You're also spending 20+ skill points into Warfare to get this. The Windsword Perfect Strike is far from great, it's an automatic critical hit only on enemies that have FULL health, and it doesn't ignore Block/Evade, etc. So you need to strike the target, and then the target needs to have full health. It has very limited use because it's only against enemies with 100% health and it doesn't ignore block, and Flaweless assault is just a better option. You're also at mid-end game before you're getting your promotion and picking up this ability. The Mercenary fills a unique role if you're using him as a stun bot while dual wielding a sword and mace, and then you're trading damage for stuns. The second ability on the Windsword (movement) is really good, but the perfect strike not so much. Neither the Defender nor the Mercenary are top tier, and I'll take a defender over Mercenary. Both the Barbarian and Bladedancer deal so much more damage than the Mercenary. The Mercenary has a few niché things that it brings (stun bot, etc), but it just doesn't make up for the loss in Grandmaster. I always keep a Crusader in my party (the most OP class in the game), so my melee never have problem with blocking.

Might Classes:
Top tier - Bladedancer, Barbarian.
Mid tier - Defender, Mercenary.

Relaying on Warfare skills, you can skip Perception altogether on the Mercenary and just max Might. Few other Characters have that option.
By the time you reach GM levels, mana pots should not be an issue. Sure you'll "waste" every 4th-6th round to drink but still worth it IMO. Plus you prevent enemy blocks for the rest of the party and protect them from wasting their attacks for nothing (perhaps Crusader can do that too, I think his skill was bugged back when I was playing).

Every single class in the game can skip perception, as the attack value you get from reaching Grandmaster and + gear will get you way above the needed value. I build 3 Might/1 Vitality on all of my might characters, none of them put any points into perception. You're correct that the Crusader (light) skill was bugged before, but that was changed and it works now. One skill point into a weapon mastery will increase your attack value by +2, that's an additional 20 from reaching Grandmaster and you'll gain +10 attack value for each item that has +5 in your weapon attribute, the max is +6 which will grant you +12.

My Barbarian at level 20 has a base perception of 7 and an attack value of 169. The highest evasion in the game is 155 from the goblin enemies. So with a base perception (7), my Barbarian will never miss a single attack. I could increase her attack value even higher if I went hunting for gear.

The crusader can prevent blocks already at level 3 (expert in Light), the Mercenary/Defender will first be able to do this at around level 18-22.

 

[Kayerts]

But god knows that the DLC for Might and Magic 10 is the worst DLC ever made, in any game genre or series. It's so frustratingly annoying that I'm forcing myself to complete it.

I don't think I've ever seen such a decline between a game and its semi-expansion, and I guess I understand why.

I really liked MMX, but I think its combat system was a lot shallower than it initially appeared; once you figure out that stacking damage mitigation is really good, most of the challenge goes out, and all the fights start to feel the same. It's still interesting to explore and find the topological sort of locations to visit, and I really liked the climb toward becoming powerful, but the game didn't really have a lot to do after I'd hunted down all those promotions I'd been thinking about all game. There was the final sequence of dungeons, but I have not heard reports of anyone actually liking them. At the time I thought that was the encounter designers dropping the ball at the end, but the DLC made me realize that this was probably more of a gameplay system failure; they'd already used all the interesting challenges they could create in the existing system.

The DLC was an attempt to get outside that, while still using the same engine and mechanics, but the only new gameplay elements they could think to add were some of the worst implementations of the most hated gimmicks in RPGs: terrible stealth segments and gear-heisting (in a game where half the classes are completely dependent on gear), all wrapped in a forced encounter that, if you accidentally reenter the palace after completing the game, you are forced to complete immediately after the base game's end, without the chance to restock food.

The final sequence of the DLC was a return to form, albeit weird lore-wise. (Wait, lowest-level Castle mooks from HOMM are more powerful than dragons and shadow demons now?) And while it wasn't as bad, it did showcase why the designers wanted to switch things up: at that point, the main way to create difficult combat encounters was HP/dmg bloat; they knew it was shitty, but they couldn't think of anything else.

 

[Eggs is eggs]

Combat in the old school MM games was simple, which I liked. MMX had complex combat, which I did not like as much. It's a good game though. If you liked MM3-5 and old school, turn based first person RPGs in general then you should give it a try.

 

[octavius]

MM1-2 were more tactical, MM3-5 had simplistic and rather boring combat, MM6-7 had simplistic but fun combat (Meteor Storm and Starburst on large groups of enemies never gets old).
MMX sounds like a step in the right direction combatwise.

 

[Darth Roxor]

MMX sounds like a step in the right direction combatwise.

It might look like that on paper, but the end result is actually worse than anything in 3-8.

 

[SionIV]

MMX sounds like a step in the right direction combatwise.

It might look like that on paper, but the end result is actually worse than anything in 3-8.

Final Fantasy 6 is worse than Final Fantasy 12.
Baldur's Gate 2 is worse than Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance.
Morrowind is worse than Oblivion.
Fallout is worse than Fallout 4.

It's alright to have an opinion, it doesn't change the fact that it's shit.

Might & Magic 6-8.

1.) Spend 70% of the time shooting arrows at enemies and walking backwards.
2.) Spend 20% of the time attacking with melee weapon when you're surrounded and can't run away to shoot at the enemy.
3.) Spend 10% of the game using Shrapnel, Fireball, Meteor Shower or other powerful spell to destroy everything.

Combat in Might & Magic 10 is much more complicated. It's important where you position yourself on the grid, it's important to protect yourself correctly or you'll get one shot. Every new turn you have several different options. I find Might & Magic 6 and 7 to be the better game, but there is no doubt that the combat is much better in Might & Magic 10. Turn based + grid = Awesome.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Combat in Might & Magic 10 is much more complicated.

Just because it's more complex than the pew pew of MM6-8 doesn't mean it's better. It has some downright tarded design decisions like no front row/back row approximation on your 4 dudes (which should be mandatory given the added complexity), boss monsters that are immune to everything because lol fuck you, etc. Not to mention the entire combat system is basically a huge pile of bandaids stuck on one another because it's all so terribly thought-through.

You say 70% of the time in MM6-8 is spent on walking backwards and shooting arrows (which is complete bollocks to begin with, but let's ignore that for a moment), meanwhile equally much time is spent in MM10 on constantly refreshing the same set of stupid anti-crowd control/anti-damage buffs.

Turn based + grid = Awesome.

welcome to the magical land of SionIV, where all it takes for a game to be AAAwesome is for it to have two general features

 

[RuySan]

I must be the only person on earth who thinks m&m X is great. Yes, the pace is very un-might & magic. Combat is too deadly, and challenge doesn't come from the attrition of fighting smaller enemies. And the game performance is terrible.

But beggars can't be choosers, and taking into consideration the current climate, it's a miracle ubisoft bankrolled this game.

It seems some time ago Ubisoft was keen on gaining niche gamer's trust, with this game, Valiant Hearts, Child of Light, Call of Juarez: Gunslinger and the Rayman games. What happened meanwhile? Probably not enough $$ to be made.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Not that great but I really like MMXL too. It has many rough edges though and most of them stayed becuase they cut suppport after DLc.

Probably not enough $$ to be made.

That happened, they moved on to shallow, multiplay games with short life span just to milk microtrans.

 

[ilitarist]

None of the classes are weak, and you can complete the game with any of the classes, but not all of them are equally strong. There is nothing the Mercenary can do that others can't do better. He has GM Warfare which lets him get an automatic critical hit once every turn by spending mana on it, this is where he shines. The problem is that you're at late-mid to end game when you're able to pick up this ability, and by then he's dealing half of the damage that a Barbarian will do. Grandmaster more than doubles your damage, and this gets more noticeable when you pick up +5/+6 sword/axe/mace gear from the shops. The Mercenary is the ONLY might hero that can't get Grandmaster in a weapon.

I don't know. I think in the midgame there's a period when you don't have enough money and enemies start throwing some serious status effects on you. You need to cover several magic schools (or I think one of them has ultimate cure against every status effect but it requires more mana and skill level) to be able to counter weakness, feeblemindness, poison, stone and whatever enemies throw at you. Later you can get by with scrolls and potions (I could cast all the spells but used spells anyway to conserve mana) but you have to somehow survive up to this point.

Maybe it's a good idea for a second playthrough with a different party. After all there are no harder difficulties in the game so you have to look for challenge.

 

[SionIV]

None of the classes are weak, and you can complete the game with any of the classes, but not all of them are equally strong. There is nothing the Mercenary can do that others can't do better. He has GM Warfare which lets him get an automatic critical hit once every turn by spending mana on it, this is where he shines. The problem is that you're at late-mid to end game when you're able to pick up this ability, and by then he's dealing half of the damage that a Barbarian will do. Grandmaster more than doubles your damage, and this gets more noticeable when you pick up +5/+6 sword/axe/mace gear from the shops. The Mercenary is the ONLY might hero that can't get Grandmaster in a weapon.

I don't know. I think in the midgame there's a period when you don't have enough money and enemies start throwing some serious status effects on you. You need to cover several magic schools (or I think one of them has ultimate cure against every status effect but it requires more mana and skill level) to be able to counter weakness, feeblemindness, poison, stone and whatever enemies throw at you. Later you can get by with scrolls and potions (I could cast all the spells but used spells anyway to conserve mana) but you have to somehow survive up to this point.

Maybe it's a good idea for a second playthrough with a different party. After all there are no harder difficulties in the game so you have to look for challenge.

It's actually not a problem at all. You'll want expert Primordial magic for Identify, and it also gives you Dispel Magic at the same time, which removes every debuff/buff in the game on every party member. You just need to make sure to protect the character that has the spell, which isn't hard and just requires you to keep 3-4 rings with immunity to paralyze, feeblemind, etc. These rings drop all over the place. Money can be a bit tight at the start if you're buying things you don't really need, or spending it on potions. Once you read mid game you'll easily aquire 60 000 - 100 000 gold and even above on Warrior. I ended my last game with 470 000 gold.

Some people say that Warrior is too hard and adventure is too easy. I can't play on adventure as it's too easy, I enjoy Warrior but wouldn't mind a third difficulty above Warrior.

 

[ilitarist]

I liked MMXL because I appretiate that combat model.

I've tried MM6-8 several time but couldn't get the appeal. It was kinda fun to explore cities and look for trainers but it quickly became a chore. And combat feels cheesy. Shoot and step back for most monsters. Looked at letsplays - end game gameplay is too about shooting and stepping back, but this time you buff before fight and shoot with big stuff.

 

[RuySan]

The shooting is a valid mechanic when you outlevel the monsters, which is kinda satisfying to play the game like that because you earned it. Try doing it is more difficult dungeon and with difficult enemies and you'll have a hard time.

M&M 7 is probably better if you get bored quickly, since the dungeons are shorter, with less enemies, and the overworld more compact.

 

[octavius]

So how the hell does Reputation work in MM6?
At one point I had a Despicable rep (-650 or so), despite never killing a peasant, nor using the Armageddon spell. Does using Temple of Baa for healing affect it?

After seeing the Oracle I had a rep of 722, which I think is the highest I've had. I then traveled to the Eel Infested Waters to find the Light Magic Master, and killed some water life in the process. When I reached the Light Master my rep had decreased by 8. Not that it would have mattered, as I apparantly need a Saintly rep, but I'm curious how I lost those 8 rep...

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Haplo]

I must be the only person on earth who thinks m&m X is great.

No, you're not the only one. For me it's on par with Shadowrun Returns and (which is great overall but slightly simplistic) and Divinity:OS (which is also a flawed game).
And way above any other M&M title above V, where I simply resented the kiting combat model.

 

[Maggot]

I never really needed to kite aside from running away from huge fights. Bows are shit later on anyways.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I never really needed to kite aside from running away from huge fights. Bows are shit later on anyways.

This.

If you have to kite with bows all the time in MM6-8, you have only yourself to blame.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[T. Reich]

You mean with shrapnel?
Or with sparks, if you're not feeling like spending too much mana.
Either way, it's melee time, babeee.

But yeah, sorcerers dual-wielding daggers under hour of power + day of the gods is opie-op. I have the fondest memories from clearing Eofol Tunnels with my light caster party.

 

[Lord Blackthorne]

I wonder why noone has made a online might and magic game, or have they?