Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Edmund Spenser]

Currently on sale on GOG, any recommendations? I'm considering either 6 or 7 to grab while I'm currently playing through Heroes of might and magic 3

Obvious answer is to get both, especially considering they are connected plot-wise (even if you absolutely do not play these games for their bad plots).

If you, for whatever reason, can only get one, here are some opinions:

MM6
- more freedom (7 has a tutorial island and locks you into certain choices and duties afterwards)
- less handholding in general
- more player choice in terms of skill mastery
- better art direction (imo)
- nonlinear

MM7
- more systems polish
- Alchemy is now a skill
- Better rewards for mastering/grandmastering skills
- adds races
- adds classes
- adds light/dark gameplay
- adds an enraging card game

Both are excellent and you'll have great fun with either. In terms of experience, they both play very similarly, so the correct choice is going to end up being what your kneejerk leans you towards. I personally give the nod to 6 but for reasons that aren't huge (skill mastery not being locked by class, the art direction, no fucking Barrow Downs, the spellbook isn't barf crapped out of a butt, etc). I do also find the Dark Path/Light Path gameplay more limiting than rewarding, but your mileage may vary.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

M&M7 is more



While M&M 6 is more

 

[Edmund Spenser]

M&M7 is more



While M&M 6 is more

this man speaks true words

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Grampy_Bone]

M&M7 is balanced in the sense that you can make your way through the game clearing out each dungeon and area in an intuitive order and not run into too much trouble or difficulty unless you stray too far from the obvious path. You can build each character to their natural strengths whether it's melee, ranged, or spellcasting and (pretty much) always have a party strong enough to meet the game's challenges.

Meanwhile, in M&M6 you almost need to start looking for ways to break the game right off the bat to make the early dungeons bearable; abusing fountains and black potions is practically mandatory. Whatever classes you pick you will find you need specific strategies to survive many dungeons (i.e. physical-immune slimes) and some builds are straight up unworkable (all melee). The game eventually grinds the player down to the point where it's a struggle to kill anything at all, every fight feels like a boss battle, rooms full of foes that can all OHKO the entire team, and there seems to be no hope of achieving any kind of advantage. Then the game says fuckit and gives you fricken lazor guns.

It's really stark how different it is playing the two. Getting the guns in M&M6 is like stealing the secret of fire from the gods. In M&M 7 you also get guns but you're all like, nah, no thanks, my thief can one-shot giant robots just fine with her knives.

 

[Tito Anic]

and some builds are straight up unworkable (all melee)

Solo knight, mm6, last boss



Well it is not melee but still... impresive

 

[Shadenuat]

I only found dispel magic mobs (so castle darkmoor) deconstruct melee party since = no buffs. Otherwise M&M6, sure, is more difficult but can be played through particular maps in order. You get all magic right away, nothing is locked behind obligatory promotions, so the only thing you have to beat is game's economy system.

And yes the game asks for some reasonable party building, at some places it's easier with bunch of fighters, another you get physical immune mobs vulnerable to (gasp!) fire damage. Problem?

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Grampy_Bone]

like which ones lol

Did you miss earlier in this thread where the guy is complaining about the starter dungeon being pretty hard? Nothing like that in M&M7. Yes there is a dragon but it is optional and doesn't need to be beaten. Meanwhile there is no dungeon in early game M&M7 as tough as the M&M6 Thieve's guild, or the Slime dungeon where all the enemies are immune to physical attacks. Those kind of challenges are more spread out and the party is better prepared for fighting them in M&M7.

I don't remember ever having an issue with enemies in MM7 going for certain races that I could not solve with a simple casting of associated buffing spells. Meanwhile in MM6 there are fields and fields of minotaurs and cuisinarts, every single one of which spams insta-kill attacks as fast as regular attacks. There aren't any foes like that, in the same number or with the same lethality, in MM7. Heck in MM7 you can clear out a dungeon of dragons and titans with little trouble and make off with numerous OP artifact weapons, whereas such combats are grueling affairs you are lucky to walk away from in MM6.

first you say that inclusion of guns is retarded,

??? I didn't say that at all.

I said that when M&M6 gives you guns they feel very strong and change completely how combat works. In M&M7 the guns are less impressive because the traditional weapons and spells are comparatively better. I never said the guns were "retarded" or that one game's approach was better or worse than the other, I was simply commenting on the difference.

Really though, do you think M&M7 was harder than M&M6? How edgy.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Curratum]

Meanwhile, in M&M6 you almost need to start looking for ways to break the game right off the bat to make the early dungeons bearable; abusing fountains and black potions is practically mandatory. Whatever classes you pick you will find you need specific strategies to survive many dungeons (i.e. physical-immune slimes) and some builds are straight up unworkable (all melee). The game eventually grinds the player down to the point where it's a struggle to kill anything at all, every fight feels like a boss battle, rooms full of foes that can all OHKO the entire team, and there seems to be no hope of achieving any kind of advantage.

I said the same thing with fewer words a few posts back and got half a dozen "retarded" ratings, now this is getting brofists... This forum...

 

[Grampy_Bone]

its not early game.

Yeah they are. And you do need to beat them because its' the only way to get enough xp and money to level up to face the tougher challenges. There's basically no optional content in M&M6.

Yeah but they almost never work.Even once they hit you can just rezz party member.

Again, the point isn't that "it's not that hard because I can deal with it" but rather to show that this is a comparatively different level of challenge from the sequel, where there are no such enemies in such quantities.

I find this entire discussion quite disingenuous, considering you already used an OBVIOUSLY optional dragon encounter to imply that MM7 was some how unbalanced and unfair. AS IF that even compares to the completely mandatory tomb of VARN.

 

[Darth Roxor]

why do people mention the tomb of varn as if it were something superhard

 

[Darth Roxor]

also

abusing fountains and black potions is practically mandatory.

first someone says you should never level up in wiz8 before reaching arnika, now this

this thread is going to the dogs

 

[Grampy_Bone]

why do people mention the tomb of varn as if it were something superhard

For the billionth time:

There are no dungeon(s) in M&M7 that are as comparatively tough. The titan dungeon is basically a series of loot pinatas, while I dread making my way through M&M6's grueling series of endgame dungeons.

 

[Darth Roxor]

funny, because my impression is exactly the opposite

i get shellshock each time i think of the pit, eeofol, titan dungeon and the lincoln

meanwhile the only thing i can think of that's a pain in mm6 is darkmoor, and that's more or less a meme by this point anyway

fuck even the barrow downs are a pain in the ass if you have the aforementioned d0rf cleric

and still:

There are no dungeon(s) in M&M7 that are as comparatively tough.

i really and honestly don't remember the tomb of varn being tough at all, much less it being comparatively tough to something else

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Challenge is always going to be a relative concept and thus hard to judge objectively. But a scan of any forum produces more "MM6 is teh hard" messages than MM7.

6 has much bigger dungeons than 7, that's obvious. M&M7 also has the grandmaster skill level which allows the player to reach a higher tier of power at a lower character level than in M&M6.

Spells are stronger in M&M7 too. In 6 the healing spells are pretty worthless, in 7 each skill rank multiplies healing amounts so they stay relevant. Example:

MM6:

Cure Wounds
SP cost: 5
Cures hit points on a single target when cast. The number cured is equal to five plus 2 per point of skill in Body Magic.
Normal: Moderate recovery rate
Expert: Faster recovery rate
Master: Even faster recovery rate

("recovery rate" is such a shitty upgrade)

MM7:

Heal: Costs 2 spell points. Restores lost hit points to a single target.

• Normal: Amount healed is 5 points plus 2 per skill point.
• Expert: Amount healed is 5 plus 3 per skill point.
• Master: Amount healed is 5 plus 4 per skill point.
• Grandmaster: Amount healed is 5 plus 5 per skill point

(scales with level--and cheaper!)

MM6:
Fire Arrow: The arrow does 1-8 points of damage when it hits.
(skill level affects recovery time)

MM7:
Fire Bolt: Costs 2 spell points. Launches a burst of fire at a single target. Does 1-3 in damage per skill point.
(skill level affects recovery time)


The MM6 fire arrow spell is worthless past the opening moments of the game. The MM7 fire bolt scales with skill level and remains relevant longer.

More spells in MM7 scale with skill level and are overall stronger--and thus contribute to an easier game. "Dwarf priest" seems to be as much of a meme as Darkmoor anyway.

 

[Curratum]

This is what confuses the fuck out of me with MnMs though... Even long-time players who know the games inside and out can't agree on what is what.

I keep finding completely opposing statements very extreme in their nature all over the place.

"A party of only druids on 7 is the most op shit ever!" then another guy would be "Druid is the most useless class in 7!"

Does anyone agree about anything about those games?

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Does anyone agree about anything about those games?

Umm, welcome to the Codex?

You have to gauge everyone's opinion by how much crap they are willing to tolerate. For example, claiming that a certain spell or ability is "overpowered" while glossing over the time commitment required to abuse it (i.e. resting after every battle, cheesing a lowbie party to an endgame area, extreme grinding, etc.). Some people will always complain no matter what that every game is too easy and needs to be harder. Some people just take for granted that their play style is the only one that exists.

There's no accounting for taste. I try to cite objective analysis whenever possible but I fall into this trap as much as anyone.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Edmund Spenser]

I mean, I'd say both games are pretty easy and any difficulty increase is because of party composition, skill choice and prioritization, and purposefully tackling content you think you'll demolish without being prepared (Darkmoor).

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Probably also depends on how you play them. I play turn-based almost all the time and found MM6 way harder than MM7.

 

[Average Manatee]

M&M6 has a difficult start if you are new and don't have a guide/foresight. It's very easy to run out of money/spend skill points poorly leading to a need to grind up more money for the right spells or levels for different skills. I recall getting to Free Haven, buying a ton of spells that looked cool expecting to head back and clean up some early dungeons, then figuring out that they were all worthless garbage.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Why are you guys talking about difficulty in Might and Magic games outside of 1 and 2?

 

[Curratum]

Because our standards are not based on nostalgia and caveman logic?