The Outer Worlds Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Orma]

Morrowind was bash-your-head-against-the-wall awful and anybody telling you otherwise last played it when they were 12.

So, you never found caius cosades?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Morrowind was bash-your-head-against-the-wall awful and anybody telling you otherwise last played it when they were 12.

So, you never found caius cosades?

From my recollection I played like 40 hours before remembering that main quest exists.

 

[fantadomat]

Morrowind was bash-your-head-against-the-wall awful and anybody telling you otherwise last played it when they were 12.

So, you never found caius cosades?

From my recollection I played like 40 hours before remembering that main quest exists.

Nobody cares about the main quest in such games. I visit him after i was 100 in everything and grandmaster of 5 guilds!

 

[Yosharian]

I can't believe we actually have people in this thread defending quest markers. Kill me now.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Except nobody is defending quest markers. It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments.

Given the scope and budget of this thing and apparent massive cuts they already had to do, I'd rather have a shitty navigation system that works, than theoretically great navigation system that actually sucks.

Speaking of navigation by environment done right, The Long Dark does it brilliantly. Not only there's no quest markers, they don't even give you a compass so you have to rely on position of the sun to remain mindful of your movement. The maps are pretty small, though. You can't have everything.

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

= It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments.

=

Don't do them. Design areas so that you can provide landmarks /clues/ directions.

 

[sullynathan]

Temper your expectations because the devs aren't keeping them high. They're making a mostly short action rpg that isn't trying to be overly ambitious or particularly great.

In my eyes it's fitting for obsidian to make such a game. Outer worlds will likely be a one and done game till their big xbox franchise

 

[Yosharian]

Except nobody is defending quest markers. It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments.

Given the scope and budget of this thing and apparent massive cuts they already had to do, I'd rather have a shitty navigation system that works, than theoretically great navigation system that actually sucks.

Speaking of navigation by environment done right, The Long Dark does it brilliantly. Not only there's no quest markers, they don't even give you a compass so you have to rely on position of the sun to remain mindful of your movement. The maps are pretty small, though. You can't have everything.

You are de facto defending them by saying that there is no other way to do quests in a 3D environment, which is blatantly bullshit. I can turn off quest markers for 95% of Skyrim and get by just fine, so if it can be done in that piece of shit game, it can be done in any game. There is even a mod that rewrites the quest objectives so that the troublesome quests that cannot be done without a marker, can be done without them (unfortunately the mod maker didn't keep it up to date so it's a dead mod, but that's by the by). What do you know, this so-called 'extremely hard to do' thing can be done just by rewriting the quest objectives. Really makes you think.

Isn't it interesting that 95% of what lazy developers (and apologists for them) say cannot be done or is extremely hard to do well can suddenly be done by a modder in their spare time.

"We're working on ultrawide support, we don't have any ulltrawide monitors in the studio!" Modder does it for them.
"We can't allow you to change FOV because it'll mess up the UI" Modder does it for them.
"We can't fix this power armor bug" Modder does it for them, then they reintroduce the bug in a later game using the same engine.

Quest markers are a byproduct of lazy, awful level and quest design. End of discussion. No ifs, no buts, no 3D environment this or that. If you cannot fit your quest into the game without quest markers, go back to the drawing board and redesign your levels, the quest itself, and probably major parts of the game, because you have failed to make a good game.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I can turn off quest markers for 95% of Skyrim and get by just fine, so if it can be done in that piece of shit game, it can be done in any game. There is even a mod that rewrites the quest objectives so that the troublesome quests that cannot be done without a marker, can be done without them (unfortunately the mod maker didn't keep it up to date so it's a dead mod, but that's by the by). What do you know, this so-called 'extremely hard to do' thing can be done just by rewriting the quest objectives. Really makes you think.

What really makes me think is that you apparently found Skyrim actually worth replaying. That alone indicates you don't belong in any RPG discussion ever.

 

[SpaceWizardz]

Doesn’t really matter what it is. The point is that it should be something ”playable and interactive” within the gameworld that makes sense in the fiction, instead of just an aid feature from the developer to pull the player from the nose lest he be lost.

I don't think this is it.
Would you see Skyrim any differently if quest markers were disabled and you had to make your way around with the Clairvoyance spell?

 

[BlackAdderBG]

The immersion breaking from markers for world navigation in a futuristic game is weak point as google maps is a thing now, but I agree as everybody that using it to solve quests is pinnacle of lazy design.

 

[Trashos]

In my eyes it's fitting for obsidian to make such a game. Outer worlds will likely be a one and done game till their big xbox franchise

Potential decline aside, if Obsidian doesn't create a commercially SlamDunk! franchise with TOW, I don't think they ever will. It's now or never for them. And, frankly, if the world is charming enough and they don't fuck something up really bad, I think they will make it.

 

[Black Angel]

since when are we being okay with quest markers?

About 13 years to get used to it.

Quest markers are only absent in hardcore RPGs which this certainly isn't or has ever tried to claim to be.

Ew no. Speak for yourself, Roronoa Zoro.

I was replying to PJ, not making a general assertion about quest markers being good.

.....

Never said it wasn't. Said it didn't automatically make a great game bad.

But that's the point. The markers is part of what held New Vegas from True Greatness™, aside from that piece of shit of an engine.

Fart Souls I did not play.

Play it, and cleanse your soul thoroughly of the popamole, you fuck.

Except nobody is defending quest markers. It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments.

Given the scope and budget of this thing and apparent massive cuts they already had to do, I'd rather have a shitty navigation system that works, than theoretically great navigation system that actually sucks.

"extremely hard to do well in 3D environments", and yet From Software managed to do it with FIVE (5!) fucking games AND their DLCs back-to-back without seemingly breaking a sweat, except for the fact that they're now fatigued by their overused gameplay formula.

Also, please give us an example of 'theoretically great navigation system that actually sucks', because frankly most of the examples we brought up so far *didn't* actually sucks, and 'shitty navigation system that works (whatever the hell that means)' aren't worth it because they exist at the expense of great quests design in terms of exploration and navigation.

Speaking of navigation by environment done right, The Long Dark does it brilliantly. Not only there's no quest markers, they don't even give you a compass so you have to rely on position of the sun to remain mindful of your movement. The maps are pretty small, though. You can't have everything.

First you claim that "It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments." and now you brought up an indie-developer who *actually* did it?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

First you claim that "It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments." and now you brought up an indie-developer who *actually* did it?

Yes, because that game has like 8 small-ish maps that took 6 years to develop.

 

[Ulukai]

In Outcast you literally ask npcs how to find another person or a place and they tell you and even point in the direction. The same in Shenmue where they ask you to follow them.

This is how you make immersive experience without gps system

The navigation system is one of my best memories of Outcast but it need a lot of unique and interesting NPCs like those in the city of Okriana. I doubt GTA or Wild Hunt players have the same feeling with saturated minimap

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/outcast-a-genre-bending-masterpiece.46872/page-2

Imo this game actually has the best quest compass ever made in a game: You talk to a random person, and they give you directions where you should go based on where you are(and if I remember correctly, not everyone knows where a certain thing is, so you have to ask around).


I said it before but this game does a far better job at offering the player a believable and active world than Oblivion did.

 

[Yosharian]

Holy shit talking to NPCs to find out where people or places are? Uhh we don't do that anymore, games have progressed you see, 3D environments are just too complicated to do stuff like that!

 

[Black Angel]

First you claim that "It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments." and now you brought up an indie-developer who *actually* did it?

Yes, because that game has like 8 small-ish maps that took 6 years to develop.

Yeah, and they're an indie team. Obsidian, under the direction of motherfucking Cainarsky, backed by resources from Take-Two Interactive? Now tell me it's going to be "extremely hard for them to do it".

I mean, yeah, they supposedly shown excitement at the possibility of accomplishing quests without the need of quest markers, but man. The fact that they consider putting quest markers *at all*.... I guess, in a way, I'm still in a denial phase even though it's just clear as day that they're definitely after dem Skyrim money.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Except nobody is defending quest markers. It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments.

Given the scope and budget of this thing and apparent massive cuts they already had to do, I'd rather have a shitty navigation system that works, than theoretically great navigation system that actually sucks.

Speaking of navigation by environment done right, The Long Dark does it brilliantly. Not only there's no quest markers, they don't even give you a compass so you have to rely on position of the sun to remain mindful of your movement. The maps are pretty small, though. You can't have everything.

You are de facto defending them by saying that there is no other way to do quests in a 3D environment, which is blatantly bullshit. I can turn off quest markers for 95% of Skyrim and get by just fine, so if it can be done in that piece of shit game, it can be done in any game.

I tried this and some of the Quests were so vague it was not feasible. Granted Skyrim is shit so I didn't try too hard, but the journal entries for that game were...laughable. Maybe it was part of the 5%.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

First you claim that "It's just a simple fact that they are extremely hard to do well in 3D environments." and now you brought up an indie-developer who *actually* did it?

Yes, because that game has like 8 small-ish maps that took 6 years to develop.

Yeah, and they're an indie team. Obsidian, under the direction of motherfucking Cainarsky, backed by resources from Take-Two Interactive?

What are you even talking about. This is not triple A title with infinite resources and 500 people working on it. It's a middle-budget cheapstake RPG that will be shorter than KOTOR 2 and is being made by a skeleton team that already went through 2 rounds of massive cuts just so they can launch in time. That 1 hour podcast released on Thursday has like 150 questions and the answer to about half of them was "yeah we had no money to do that". Your character doesn't even have feet for christ sake.

Keep your expectations connected to reality and you'll find happiness again.

 

[FreeKaner]

Your legs being visible is fucking retarded.

 

[Prime Junta]

It's a middle-budget cheapstake RPG that will be shorter than KOTOR 2 and is being made by a skeleton team that already went through 2 rounds of massive cuts just so they can launch in time.

Yet it needs quest markers?

Look, I get quest markers in big open-world games. They are a lot more work to do without them. But a comparatively compact hub-and-spoke game? Pure retardation.

 

[Black Angel]

What are you even talking about. This is not triple A title with infinite resources and 500 people working on it. It's a middle-budget cheapstake RPG that will be shorter than KOTOR 2 and is being made by a skeleton team that already went through 2 rounds of massive cuts just so they can launch in time. That 1 hour podcast released on Thursday has like 150 questions and the answer to about half of them was "yeah we had no money to do that". Your character doesn't even have feet for christ sake.

Keep your expectations connected to reality and you'll find happiness again.

I can't really, man. These are the guys who unleashed the incline that are Fallout, Arcanum, and Bloodlines (disclaimer: I haven't yet the chance to try ToEE) so why?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

It's a middle-budget cheapstake RPG that will be shorter than KOTOR 2 and is being made by a skeleton team that already went through 2 rounds of massive cuts just so they can launch in time.

Yet it needs quest markers?

Look, I get quest markers in big open-world games. They are a lot more work to do without them. But a comparatively compact hub-and-spoke game? Pure retardation.

Alpha Protocol had them and it was linear as fuck. The quest markers aren’t necessary from a design perspective, they’re necessary from the publisher’s perspective. We may hate them, but if you want to sell a lot of copies, as Take-Two surely does, they are an expected feature that casuals can’t live without—or at least, they don’t believe they can live without them. What the hell did any of you expect?

Edit: also, again, we’ve known about this for months!!!

 

[Prime Junta]

Edit: also, again, we’ve known about this for months!!!

I didn’t. Wasn’t paying attention.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think making a game playable without quest markers is "extremely hard", it's mostly just not a priority.

In the interview, Tim and Leonard seem kind of surprised that this is even an issue. They're sort of puzzled/intrigued by the idea that people would want to be able turn quest markers off. Maybe "exploration" is something they never thought about or cared about all that much.