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Vapourware The problem with Speech (and your ideas for solutions)

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
16,005
Are players that hate “story faggotry” just people who hate to read or is it the writing is so bad or has no real effect in decisions made in the game? Should the author label his game (dare I say her.. ha) with
“BEWARE COMAT FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE STORY FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE ADVENTURE FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE PUZZLE FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE LOTSA GAY SEX FAGGOTRY”
 

NaturallyCarnivorousSheep

Albanian Deliberator Kang
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Possibly Retarded
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EGT Tower 14th floor, Tirana
Are players that hate “story faggotry” just people who hate to read or is it the writing is so bad or has no real effect in decisions made in the game? Should the author label his game (dare I say her.. ha) with
“BEWARE COMAT FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE STORY FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE ADVENTURE FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE PUZZLE FAGGOTRY”
“BEWARE LOTSA GAY SEX FAGGOTRY”
you are retarded fucking gen x retard you should be on your wheelchair dying of alzheimer, brain too small to comprehend
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
16,005
I don’t comprehend Ubonix you feral furry faggot!

Congratulations: ALLITERATION +1
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
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4,234
RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Lonesome Road is a bad example, because it's not a skill tax in this case. You can convince Ulysses to step down without any skill checks if you want. There are two other dialogue branches that rely on you exploring the world (finding all of his audio messages and getting all of the ED-E logs).

According to wiki there are two checks and only the second 100% speech check can by bypass, you still need 90% speech to pass the first check. It might be wrong though.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,359
One solution is a setting without speech. At all.

I would support a "first contact" setting where you don't understand anybody you meet - and so dialogue scenes are mostly about actions and your responses to those actions.

Let's say a Risen-like open world. You spot the aliens/whatever who are picking apart your escape pod, taking bits and pieces away with them. You would be able to try what you think are good ways to show peace - approach slowly with hands up or toss food or whatever - and they may talk to you, but you wouldn't understand, and you'd make your choices based on how you interpret their actions. You may come across another group in the overworld that keep running away from you talking to themselves; you could interpret this as weakness and chase them or not. Or later, you are invited to participate in some sort of ritual, which you still can't tell is about welcoming you or eating you - you aren't going to give some Persuade speech, your choice is do you eat the strange frog brain presented to you or take some other action, based on your observation of the situation. You might sing, and take the chance that it's seen as a mating call, a friendly gesture, a war cry, or just batshit craziness.

Ideally, it is in-engine; realistically, it may involve set piece scenes, but with some clear visual representation, and maybe time-based responses like Alpha Protocol or Sacred Fire. Your 'success' really depends on carefully observing the weirdos you meet and then deciding you're looking for what makes them afraid, friendly, etc. - but it also means that instead of 100% clear "Success" or "Failure", there is always a risk that you have misunderstood the situation and you need to continue to observe carefully throughout the game - perhaps filling out a sort of 'hint notebook' about what your character thinks they have learnt about the locals, to be crossed out and edited (think the journal in Return of Obra Dinn, rather than an Encyclopedia).

It wouldn't necessarily solve all the system problems around Speech, but I think we could do with such experiments which break out of the idea that if you say the "right" thing you can make anyone do anything instantly - betray their master, murder their family, give you all their money, and so on. If such a game retained a Skill system, then at least the skills would always be non-speech skills that give you more information about your surroundings - e.g. "Extraordinary Hearing", "Botanical Knowledge", "Fast Draw".
 

POOPERSCOOPER

Prophet
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California
This is a good thread. When I first played a CRPG I was amazed I could accomplish things by talking but for whatever reason the older I got the lamer it kind of was. Like a easy path especially in a game like New Vegas where the requirements were so low and easy to do.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
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Oct 3, 2015
Messages
13,427
The best attempt I've seen of trying to make social interactions into gameplay analogue to combat was in a pencil and paper game called Burning Wheel. There, you have an argument with someone and different kinds of argumentative strategy are categorised as kinds of attacks, which are weaker and stronger to other kinds. The whole thing has a couple of good ideas buried in it, but the mini-game itself is abstract and doesn't make sense. The most important aspect about an argument should be its content, not how well you roll when making it.
Didn't Deus Ex: Human Revolution do something like this?
Yes, and I passed all but one of DX:HR's speech challenge sequences on the first attempt (without the implant that aids in this). Even if it were more difficult to determine the correct route in the speech challenges, this would merely encourage the player to reload and try again. Deus Ex: Human Revolution's speech challenges lacked any actual gameplay other than selecting from a list of dialogue options, making another fine example of a lack of game mechanics in favor of scripting, which is the real crux of the issue.
 

BlackAdderBG

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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
This is a good thread. When I first played a CRPG I was amazed I could accomplish things by talking but for whatever reason the older I got the lamer it kind of was. Like a easy path especially in a game like New Vegas where the requirements were so low and easy to do.

Same, it's because with time you grasp the designer intent with the game mechanics. It was cool to find out you can sneak or persuade certain encounters to avoid combat, but then you start to notice it's either there so no bad build can be made or that you lose xp/items. Nowadays I fucking hate the 3 prong approach to quest design of Combat-Speach-Sneak, especially when there is loose use of skills or low requirements to encounter the other options to solve a quest in an area. That moment when you find a new part of the map and immediately understand it's for the "Sneak" path, or the "Science" path, or the "Lockpick" path etc.


There's not enough violence in speech skills.

Anyway to make it into some form of combat?



Yes!

 
Last edited:

Just Locus

Educated
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Mar 11, 2022
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Termina
Morrowind already had individual disposition, a personality ability score, a speech skill, racial modifiers, faction modifiers, and reputation.
AFAIK Morrowind didn't utilize its well-realized disposition system and its various modifiers to its best potential. Hence, I wish that another game could've learned from MW and taken its already great base and expanded it.

It's a logical and intuitive system, Someone's willingness to give up information almost always depends on how much they like/dislike you and that's what the disposition system is meant to represent. if you have a high personality stat, People are naturally going to like you more due to the innate traits that make you more likable as a person - as much as I can excuse Fallout and similar games' use of the speech mechanic, I don't like how sometimes a character who might utterly despise you will still give up valuable info based purely on a single line of dialogue (barring People like Legate Lanius and The Master as those follow a 'string' of dialogue options that gradually convince the character overtime).
 

gaussgunner

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ХУДШИЕ США
All you guys advocating for speech as an alternative conflict arena are effectively saying you want to play Ben Shapiro vs Destiny debate minigames. You know what that makes you, right? It makes you gay.

Dialogue was never intended to be a conflict. It's just a way to engage in shallow everyday interactions with NPCs and convey information to the player in verbal format.
 

gaussgunner

Arcane
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ХУДШИЕ США
This is a good thread. When I first played a CRPG I was amazed I could accomplish things by talking but for whatever reason the older I got the lamer it kind of was. Like a easy path especially in a game like New Vegas where the requirements were so low and easy to do.
Yeah, it's for kids. Kids think they're going to outsmart adults when they grow up and learn them some mad elocution skillz. The real world isn't about outsmarting everybody, you just ask for work, do it, get paid, and buy shit, just like old RPGs.
 

Zlaja

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
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6,224
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Swedex
In the best of worlds, solving quests in different ways by using different methods would lead to different outcomes. So, if you choose to progress a quest by convincing someone to do what you want using BIG SMART WORDS you should not always get the end result you expected. Same goes for other methods like combat and sneaking/stealing.
 

quaesta

Educated
Joined
Oct 27, 2022
Messages
164
- Have it so that the Speech solutions may not be the optimal ones, forcing the player to compromise or acquiesce. This is cool in theory, but in practice, what's the point? It just means that investing in Speech will turn you into a loser who never wins.
I am most partial to this one. I'm in favor of having speech checks in dialog not be obvious, e.g. you don't know what's the speech check. And then I'm in favor of having bad speech checks. My theoretical system would be about trying to match what my argument/pitch is with the NPC's disposition, and speech gives you the options, e.g. you could have speech options that are flattery, threatening, or deception. It forces you to pay attention and to be careful with your words, which is similar to speech IRL.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
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Nov 4, 2012
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The Satellite Of Love
Just thought of something - maybe speech skills could be replaced with shit like "Empathy" or "Shrewdness" which would give the player extra information after succeeding a passive roll (sort of like Insight in BG3 except not shit). If there was a game where NPCs routinely lied to the player or gave misinformation or hid things, and quests branched enormously depending on what the player chose to believe and act on, it could be cool to have a system where it's like "[Empathy roll succeeded] You notice the woman is hiding something, you feel that she's obscuring the truth" or w/e.

The trick there would be making quests which diverged wildly depending on what the player does and having uncompromising C&C that punishes the player for any mistakes, making it so that the social skills feel like you're really getting your worth out of them. Not just "oh I noticed this guy was lying so I was able to press him for a little bit of extra info", but rather "i noticed this guy was lying and therefore didn't go down the entire alternate route that would have ended with me knee-deep in shit".

You could make it so that any social skills are used in every conversation and give different information to each other to avoid the bullshit "oops you didn't pick the specific social skill needed for this conversation, you're fucked" thing.
I am most partial to this one. I'm in favor of having speech checks in dialog not be obvious, e.g. you don't know what's the speech check. And then I'm in favor of having bad speech checks. My theoretical system would be about trying to match what my argument/pitch is with the NPC's disposition, and speech gives you the options, e.g. you could have speech options that are flattery, threatening, or deception. It forces you to pay attention and to be careful with your words, which is similar to speech IRL.
I'm not sure how it'd avoid turning into having to read the devs' minds. Either it has to be incredibly obvious which is the speech option (eg Fallout 1/2), or else you have a bunch of options which all seem viable and all of which could be reasonably applied to the conversation, but only one of them has been designated the correct one by the devs.
 

Just Locus

Educated
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Termina
"[Empathy roll succeeded] You notice the woman is hiding something, you feel that she's obscuring the truth"
That sounds to me like Perception checks but with a new coat of paint, not to mention this is venturing into "Language" Daggerfall skills' territory where it feels more like bloat than actual mechanical depth.

I'm not sure how it'd avoid turning into having to read the devs' minds. Either it has to be incredibly obvious which is the speech option (eg Fallout 1/2), or else you have a bunch of options which all seem viable and all of which could be reasonably applied to the conversation
I mean, you could have actions represented in between symbols similar to that of the 3D Fallout games with things like <Attack> which made it so that the player understood the option without the risk of misinterpretation, I dunno how much the extent I would go with this, because going too far will result in the player thinking very little about what to choose and pick dialogue options based off of the associated action-tag as opposed to, y'know, reading the option before picking it - I guess the middle ground would be making it so Q&A playtesters mark dialogue options during testing as "vague" which will prompt the designers to make the dialogue options more clear and less blurry.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
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Sep 6, 2022
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15,925
Just thought of something - maybe speech skills could be replaced with shit like "Empathy" or "Shrewdness"
That sounds more like Perception.
Perception could encompass all the senses - Sight, Hearing, Smell and so on.
A speech skill should be strictly about the manner of speaking and the ability to convey your ideas effectively.
Remember Daggerfall? It had Blunt, Streetwise and Polite. Again, all pretty interesting. Morrowind had Admire, Taunt and Intimidate.
All Speech related.
I think that's all you need, but make it synergize with Intelligence and Charisma (like in Fallout). More dialogue options and ability to make people see and agree with your point of view.
 

garren

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hide skillchecks/thresholds, write actually intelligent branching dialogue, leave it to the player to figure out how to persuade the NPC. Don't telegraph to the player what went wrong if they don't get the desired outcome.
I personally think this is the best way. I was reminded of Lukan the Witless in Arcanum when I read the op, when playing the first time I was sure you couldn't talk yourself past him and had to fight your way through the hard fight. It was cool finding out on a later playthrough that you by picking the right multiple dialogue options you could in fact talk yourself past him. Yes, the dialogue options were a bit in the "I wonder what the the devs want me to pick" style, writing good sensible dialogue is hard. Still, that example stuck to my mind, so they did something right.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
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hide skillchecks/thresholds, write actually intelligent branching dialogue, leave it to the player to figure out how to persuade the NPC. Don't telegraph to the player what went wrong if they don't get the desired outcome.
I personally think this is the best way. I was reminded of Lukan the Witless in Arcanum when I read the op, when playing the first time I was sure you couldn't talk yourself past him and had to fight your way through the hard fight. It was cool finding out on a later playthrough that you by picking the right multiple dialogue options you could in fact talk yourself past him. Yes, the dialogue options were a bit in the "I wonder what the the devs want me to pick" style, writing good sensible dialogue is hard. Still, that example stuck to my mind, so they did something right.
Lukan was pretty hilarious.
"My irascibanality is unmatched!"
 
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Sep 1, 2020
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Nearly every RPG is a combat RPG, that is, they have a dedicated combat system as the focus of gameplay, while other things are relegated to skill checks. There's no reason you couldn't turn it around, by auto-resolving combat based on a combat skill check, while having, say, a dedicated dialogue system. Or have both, if you have time and resources.

The first obvious obstacle is that social interaction is far more complex and non-linear than combat. The things you can say are limitless and will be have a different effect based on who says it, who hears it and the circumstance. An impossible task at first glance. Yes, there's AI to help with complexity, but any complex system is useless if it can't offer feedback to the player in a way that's logical, consistent and understandable. Otherwise you'd fail an interaction and wouldn't understand why.

There's also consensus in representing combat in terms of spatial relations with quantifiable elements. Characters have HP, strength and resistance; they use weapons with damage modifiers; they interact with other characters at specific "ranges", etc. Dialogue has... charisma? But what does charisma interact with? Is there a stat to represent, say, how much a character is influenced by others? how strong their convictions are? their ability or willingness to understand arguments? We quickly find ourselves in uncharted territory.

There's the problem of personality. Being fit and strong obviously helps with combat, but what's the purpose of being stubborn, persistent, delicate, sensitive, sensual, fearful and so on? Most games have the hero as a blank slate and this aspect is entirely left to roleplaying. This would be unsatisfactory in a real dialogue system. Should these character traits be treated a part of a gradient, as stats with values attached, or as perks?

If such a system is feasible, it must not have too much complexity. Yet it must be able to recreate a consensual model of social interaction with a high degree of consistency. Naturally, you must severely limit the scope of possible interactions. One may look at dating sims for inspiration, or detective games. These are games where characters have defined roles and are interested in one thing only. Yet the ones I've played are just adventure games. You find the thing, use it on something else, open a dialogue option. They don't really have a dialogue system. And in any case, what people are wondering is how such a system would work in game like Fallout.

Someone mentioned Deus EX: HR. Iirc, that was a primitive dialogue system where you could trial and error different approaches, while getting hints of what arguments certain characters were susceptible to. If you were more right than wrong, you would basically win the conversation. That's something like what I'm talking about, but there's no reason you couldn't have a more involved approach with stats and percentages. I may do that in another post, as this already turned into a wall of text which no one will read.
 

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