Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

[Sweeper]

Okay guys, I've got your answer. What's an RPG? Underrail and Kingmaker are RPGs. And they're the only two RPGs in existence. There, I solved it for you. No need to thank me.

 

[Konjad]

RPG games are games with gay romance. I thought you guys knew, you're the most educated about it of all RPG sites.

 

[urmom]

Yakuza style games might develop further and shed their rpg elements in favor of open world GTA style games with the success of Ghost of Tsushima, but that is rather unlikely, as the newest Yakuza will be a turn based rpg.

Ghost of Tsushima is not a Japanese game. Why would they care about its success? Also the time and setting are politically sensitive there.

 

[Thac0]

Ghost of Tsushima is not a Japanese game. Why would they care about its success? Also the time and setting are politically sensitive there.

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/ghost-of-tsushima-breaks-playstation-sales-record-in-japan/

It is selling to a ludicrous degree there. Outsold Death Stranding easily.
Reasons for this are choosing a historical period which is relatively unfamiliar to most Japanese and making a very authentic game, also glorifying them heavily against the Mongols.
It might lead to an influx of western game design elements in JRPGs. It's just speculation however.

 

[Jasede]

Let's not forget they went through the trouble to hire a few Japanologists to ensure that the dialogue is period-accurate, including using kanji that were used back then, but are unfamiliar now. Also words and grammar constructions that were used then, but are no longer in use and can be difficult to understand for modern Japanese ears. This means for Japanese nerds it is as if we got a period-accurate medieval times game.

 

[urmom]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Thac0]

Let's not forget they went through the trouble to hire a few Japanologists to ensure that the dialogue is period-accurate, including using kanji that were used back then, but are unfamiliar now. Also words and grammar constructions that were used then, but are no longer in use and can be difficult to understand for modern Japanese ears. This means for Japanese nerds it is as if we got a period-accurate medieval times game.

And while the game itself isn't period accurate, due to having a good amount of anachronisms, all of those serve to just make the game cooler.
As an example the Haiku, which you use as a sort of upgrade system, is from the very late medieval/early modern Edo era in 1600. Ghost of Tsushima is set into the feudal Kamakura period in 1300. But Edo is the most famous historic Japanese period in their pop culture and the Japanese love Haiku. So it comes across that the devs definitly did their research on the history of Japan and deliberatly chose the best parts, and didn't just hack together some sloppy vaguely feudalistic shit.

As for why Yakuza specifically:
https://www.videogameschronicle.com...mazing-ghost-of-tsushima-says-yakuza-creator/
Nagoshi sang glowing praise of Tsushima, it might make a splash in how they view AAA gaming.

 

[Viata]

In another words, the GoT devs really put their soul in that game.

 

[NJClaw]

4 characters? RPG. 6 characters? RPG. 8 characters? Yeah that's still an RPG. 10 characters? Now we're stretching it but it still qualifies. Anything more than 10? LOLNO now it's a strategy or tactics game LMAO.

What happens if you play a game with a party of 6 characters (let's say Kingmaker), but you install a mod to play with 12 characters?

 

[mondblut]

Games like Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Shining Force, Vandal Hearts, Langrisser, are called tactical RPG, JA2 it seems to fit in that category for what I've seen.

About as much as Wizardry 7 seems to fit in the category of JRPG.

 

[Jvegi]

Anything with more than one controllable character is not an RPG. It's an RsPG (roles playing game).

 

[The Red Knight]

4 characters? RPG. 6 characters? RPG. 8 characters? Yeah that's still an RPG. 10 characters? Now we're stretching it but it still qualifies. Anything more than 10? LOLNO now it's a strategy or tactics game LMAO.

What happens if you play a game with a party of 6 characters (let's say Kingmaker), but you install a mod to play with 12 characters?

My gut feeling says that RPGs usually don't go above 28 party members. Any more than that and it starts to feel like a strategy game.

Or if it's about party members joining and leaving, Realmz - 20 classes and 19 races to choose from, modular story split into smaller scenarios/chapters, an option to switch party members around, and incentives to do so (e.g. better/non-penalized xp gain and loot drops, pack mules, access to different skills, adjusting party composition if your current one sucks for a given dungeon).

___________

Is that true? You can do that in Desperados and it's really hard to resist. Basically broke the game for me. I'd like to get into JA2, but this news makes it less likely.

That likely wouldn't be your problem if you're playing it for the first time. Needs a certain room type (additionally, most of the world map is wilderness with no buildings, and not all fights can be taken into urban areas), if you don't know where to lure-shoot you might deprive yourself of interrupt chance, and you're most likely to want to use this when trying to tackle a large/elite enemy group with only a few mercs. If done with newbie mercs (i.e the RPG way of getting a cheap team and watching them get stronger over the course of the game) you also risk an experienced enemy walking in and emptying his clip on your mercs at point-blank range before anyone reacts, too. Still easy once you figure the AI out, but in urban areas it's much easier (and actually enjoyable) to instead climb onto the nearest flat roof and snipe from there, night ops = easy mode, if you're near sector's border you can perorm an enter-leave dance, and if you're going to use savescumming to figure out how to reliably use exploits you may as well just savescum hit chance rolls (i.e. try ironman if you don't even trust yourself).

I guess if you're only worried about door camping, Wildfire's maps IIRC have fewer cheesy rooms (they get lots of windows, two entrances, etc.) so you could start with that one and/or get a mappack replacing the vanilla ones with them (might require 1.13 though? not sure if a standalone version is available).

TL;DR, just play the game. If you'll feel like it's necessary to use that particular exploit then it means you're not having fun with normal combat (which in turn means you should seek a therapy).

 

[Cross]

On the other hand, I would say that the best CRPGs to come out of Kickstarter are Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall, Banner Saga and FTL, all smaller budget games with tight, manageable scopes, clarity of purpose and restrained ambition. Of course, one could make a very good case that they don't have sufficient CRPG credentials to even be CRPGs, but that's kind of my point; who cares whether they adhere to genre archetypes, when they end up being better games than the ones that did?

Who cares? If you don't care, then why did you bring them up? Rather than contorting yourself through these extreme mental gymnastics (how on earth is FTL an RPG), maybe you should just admit you don't like RPGs all that much?

FTL is a cool game, but it's not an RPG by any stretch of the imagination. Banner Saga is a tactics game with underwhelming RPG elements and that's filled with bad game design: almost no variety in missions and enemies, entire mechanics like the supplies thing that are pointless and even punish you for using them, events that are basically completely random and where choosing a sensible option produces a negative outcome, etc.

Which leaves Dragonfall. Which is an RPG, but it also contradicts the point you're trying to make. Dragonfall certainly has a narrow scope, consisting of a series of discrete missions in lieu of being able to explore freely. That's fine, but the problem is that Dragonfall fails at the things you'd think it would excel at due to narrowing down its scope. Resource management is non-existent. Your abilities are all on cooldowns, having effectively limtless uses, while items also have effectively limitless uses, since they are replenished between missions and sometimes even mid-mission.

Challenge? A cakewalk, since enemies in Dragonfall are hard-coded to never attack more than once per turn, while your characters can attack 3+ times per turn. You have to use a mod to remove this artificial limitation.

Itemization? I can't remember a single piece of equipment from Dragonfall. You don't even get to manage the equipment of your party, just your own character, since the equipment of your companions is set in stone and unchangeable.

I don't even disagree with the idea that narrowing down your scope can produce a higher quality game, but it's not as simple as 'let's remove as many RPG elements/game mechanics as we can'.

 

[Lilura]

Imagine replying to Jvegi 's "concerns" lol

I don't even disagree with the idea that narrowing down your scope can produce a higher quality game, but it's not as simple as 'let's remove as many RPG elements/game mechanics as we can'.

Broad vision, tremendous ambition and coding wizardry is what separates the greats from the garbage you cited.

It is the trend, though: Keep it small, keep it super-simple, and above all, don't try too hard.

 

[Karellen]

On the other hand, I would say that the best CRPGs to come out of Kickstarter are Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall, Banner Saga and FTL, all smaller budget games with tight, manageable scopes, clarity of purpose and restrained ambition. Of course, one could make a very good case that they don't have sufficient CRPG credentials to even be CRPGs, but that's kind of my point; who cares whether they adhere to genre archetypes, when they end up being better games than the ones that did?

Who cares? If you don't care, then why did you bring them up? Rather than contorting yourself through these extreme mental gymnastics (how on earth is FTL an RPG), maybe you should just admit you don't like RPGs all that much?

That's a matter of perspective. I like pen and paper RPGs this much, and on the computer side of things, I'm very fond of dungeon crawlers, tactical RPGs of every stripe (ones with underwhelming RPG elements are fine), dungeon crawlers, strategy games with RPG elements, various jRPGs, Dark Souls and whatever King of Dragon Pass is. As far as what people generally refer to as "CRPG", no other letters included, I'm more than happy to admit that there isn't a single game strictly belonging to that subgenre made after the 90s that I would consider great, but that seems to be par for the course on the Codex, don't you think? There are plenty of games I do like, so the issue isn't that I don't like CRPGs; the issue is that people who like CRPGs don't seem to like CRPGs, and hence it is my impression that there's something wrong with the genre itself.

Now, as far as FTL goes, the only way in which it isn't an RPG is that there's something else it's easier to identify as, specifically, a "spaceship rogue-lite". But that basically means that its mechanics are largely the mechanics of a computer RPG, with the distinction that instead of developing a single character or party, you're developing a spaceship and its crew. Also (and I will grant you that it isn't necessarily a thing that matters), I find that the experience of playing FTL is a great deal closer to the pen and paper experience than most CRPGs (incidentally, I would say it is Dragonfall's strength that it, too, has some of that PnP RPG feel). Basically, I think that FTL is relevant to a discussion of RPGs, and there's much about its design that's worthy of consideration.

That said, sure, removing RPG elements isn't something that would automatically improve a game, since it's not as if there's anything inherently wrong about RPG elements in themselves. In the here and now, though, I do think that making more specialised games is, in fact, the likely way forward for CRPGs, and it is a mistake to automatically bemoan that as dumbing down.

 

[Cross]

That's a matter of perspective. I like pen and paper RPGs this much, and on the computer side of things, I'm very fond of dungeon crawlers, tactical RPGs of every stripe (ones with underwhelming RPG elements are fine), dungeon crawlers, strategy games with RPG elements, various jRPGs, Dark Souls and whatever King of Dragon Pass is. As far as what people generally refer to as "CRPG", no other letters included, I'm more than happy to admit that there isn't a single game strictly belonging to that subgenre made after the 90s that I would consider great, but that seems to be par for the course on the Codex, don't you think? There are plenty of games I do like, so the issue isn't that I don't like CRPGs; the issue is that people who like CRPGs don't seem to like CRPGs, and hence it is my impression that there's something wrong with the genre itself.

So according to you, the fact that a bulk of CRPG discussion is centered around games from the 90's (and early 2000's, to be more precise) is 'proof' that there's something wrong with the genre itself? But not the fact that, with the exception of BioWare and Bethesda, every CRPG developer closed their doors in the late 90's or early 2000's? You're acting like we've been drowning in hundreds of CRPGs since the 90's, when you could basically count the number of CRPGs released in the decade prior to the Kickstarter renaissance on one hand.

Now, as far as FTL goes, the only way in which it isn't an RPG is that there's something else it's easier to identify as, specifically, a "spaceship rogue-lite". But that basically means that its mechanics are largely the mechanics of a computer RPG, with the distinction that instead of developing a single character or party, you're developing a spaceship and its crew.

The only aspect of FTL that has some commonality with an RPG is the racial differences and the Dungeon Master-esque way in which crew members improve their skills, but even that is minor in the grand scheme of things. Even if you max the weapons system skill, you recharge weapons what, maybe 10% faster? It's more like a little reward for holding on to the same crew members as long as possible rather than a real character building system.

Improving your ship is no more of an RPG element than improving your base of operations in a strategy game. Your crew members don't have attributes they can raise or abilities they can learn. They can't equip themselves with anything. They don't have inventories to use items from. FTL doesn't have a physical world to explore, it's a series of text-based events and battle screens.

I don't get the point of casting the RPG net so wide that it becomes meaningless.

Basically, I think that FTL is relevant to a discussion of RPGs, and there's much about its design that's worthy of consideration.

What could RPG developers learn from FTL?

In the here and now, though, I do think that making more specialised games is, in fact, the likely way forward for CRPGs, and it is a mistake to automatically bemoan that as dumbing down.

I don't see how the legitimate issues I raised about Dragonfall and Banner Saga could be construed as 'bemoaning'.

 

[Jason Liang]

Which leaves Dragonfall. Which is an RPG, but it also contradicts the point you're trying to make. Dragonfall certainly has a narrow scope, consisting of a series of discrete missions in lieu of being able to explore freely. That's fine, but the problem is that Dragonfall fails at the things you'd think it would excel at due to narrowing down its scope. Resource management is non-existent. Your abilities are all on cooldowns, having effectively limtless uses, while items also have effectively limitless uses, since they are replenished between missions and sometimes even mid-mission.

Challenge? A cakewalk, since enemies in Dragonfall are hard-coded to never attack more than once per turn, while your characters can attack 3+ times per turn. You have to use a mod to remove this artificial limitation.

It's not a mod. It's just changing one or two lines in the game's AI file. And it makes a huge difference in the game's challenge. Basically HBS thought the game was too hard for popamole gamers so they modded it at the last moment, which broke the game's AI scripts.

 

[mushaden]

Side question: what are all the RPGs besides JA2 and Battle Bros where you hire mercenaries but you have to pay them continuously? I don't even know if that's a hard and fast rule in those games, but that's why I haven't played them yet.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Side question: what are all the RPGs besides JA2 and Battle Bros where you hire mercenaries but you have to pay them continuously? I don't even know if that's a hard and fast rule in those games, but that's why I haven't played them yet.

Deadfire requires you to pay your ship's crew iirc

 

[Grauken]

If I had to choose between JA2 existing or clear genre boundaries, I would choose JA2 every time.

You can have both, as JA2 neatly fits within clear RPG boundaries. The only consistent argument against it has always been "but but its combat doesn't suck, how could it be an RPG?"

For some unfathomable reason, an RPG suddenly stops being an RPG if your party size exceeds a certain arbitrary number.

4 characters? RPG. 6 characters? RPG. 8 characters? Yeah that's still an RPG. 10 characters? Now we're stretching it but it still qualifies. Anything more than 10? LOLNO now it's a strategy or tactics game LMAO.

That's literally the argument some people used here. JA2 has RPG-style characters and stats, but you control too many at once!
Battle Brothers would be a roguelike-ish RPG but you have up to 16 mercs in your party instead of just 6 or 8 so it's not!
They're not RPGs (even though their rulesets are pure fucking RPG and if your party size were smaller, nobody would even remotely doubt their RPG credentials), they're strategy games!!

Imagine inviting a few too many people to your D&D session. You all thought you were going to play an RPG, but it suddenly turned into a wargame. Oops.

absolutely right, at a certain point there's a phase change from RPG solids to strategy water, that's just how genre physics work

quantity leads to a change in gameplay style due to how you control the group and individuals, that's why we can say a Wizardry-type game is clearly an RPG, whereas Jagged Alliance isn't

 

[luj1]

Side question: what are all the RPGs besides JA2 and Battle Bros where you hire mercenaries but you have to pay them continuously? I don't even know if that's a hard and fast rule in those games, but that's why I haven't played them yet.

Syndicate, Fallout Tactics, Freedom Force

 

[mondblut]

Side question: what are all the RPGs besides JA2 and Battle Bros where you hire mercenaries but you have to pay them continuously? I don't even know if that's a hard and fast rule in those games, but that's why I haven't played them yet.

Might & Magic 3 (and 2, I think?). Pool of Radiance, sort of - hired NPCs take a portion of loot.

Aethra Chronicles has it all: a protagonist PC, a created party of 2 sidekicks, unique companions found while questing AND guilds with mercenaries that cost regular upkeep (and a lot of it, the most efficient gold sink ever). All this with a party of six.

 

[mushaden]

Syndicate, Fallout Tactics, Freedom Force

Really, Freedom Force? I played FF2 forever ago and don't remember that.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Side question: what are all the RPGs besides JA2 and Battle Bros where you hire mercenaries but you have to pay them continuously? I don't even know if that's a hard and fast rule in those games, but that's why I haven't played them yet.

HoMM 2/HoMM 3, kek.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Syndicate, Fallout Tactics, Freedom Force

Really, Freedom Force? I played FF2 forever ago and don't remember that.

I also remember playing it ages ago but I remember that at least in the second games there were some heroes you didn't automatically get and had to buy with prestige points. I think Man'O'War was one of them.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

I agree, RPG is like an insult these days. Saying this game has RPG elements is like saying: this game is a casual cash-grabbing shit.