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Jagged Alliance The RPG genre is weak. Very weak. Probably the weakest traditional genre in gaming

JarlFrank

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I don't even disagree with the idea that narrowing down your scope can produce a higher quality game, but it's not as simple as 'let's remove as many RPG elements/game mechanics as we can'.

And yet, all the games we remember as true greats are flawed gems that were overambitious and failed at some aspects, but delivered at others. Sure, keeping your ambitions low and making a more limited and tightly focused game creates an overall more solid and less flawed product, but it's the dream of overambitious games that really gets us going. Everything Troika made was an overambitious flawed gem, and we now remember them as one of the best RPG devs ever. Morrowind is flawed as fuck but is considered a beloved classic by many, and much more beloved than the more streamlined sequels. Gothic? Lots of flaws, but damn does it have soul. Etc etc.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Gothic? Lots of flaws, but damn does it have soul.

"Soul" is an important point. It's hard to define, but sometimes you get that feeling that the creators poured every ounce of effort and care into the game.
I think that the perfect example would be VtMB.
As well as KotOR 2, although it's less about soul and more about philosophical plotcrafting in its case.
 

jackofshadows

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Many people claim falsely that JA2 is not a crpg but not a single one supported this claim. So i ask, why JA2 that has more elements typically found in an average crpg than many of games from the codex top is not one. I would really like to know. A no, the meme about the "laptop guy" won't do.
In addition i'd like to know if Pathinder: Kingmaker is a crpg. Is it? Also the majority of games labelled as crpgs made before 1995. Are they crpgs?
I seriously don't get binary genre-affiliation when it comes to complex, hybrid games like JA2. Yes, it has a bunch of usual RPG-elements but it also has quite strong strategic elements so maybe for some strategy-enthusiast it's just a strategy with a set of RPG and tactical elements.

There's a game, Space Rangers 2 which contain crazy combination of various genre-elements: RPG, text-adventure, strategy, arcade, simulator... It's utterly pointless to highlight just one of these genres and call it a day.

So, FWIW, when I said "JA2 isn't an RPG" I was implied "to me". Strategy aspect is too... distracting for me there, resource min maxing and so on (which I don't mind at all, I like strategy games), it provides simply too different experience from a usual RPG-breeze. Only once I was tried to keep it at minimum and used just a few most powerful mercs but then again all thouse retaliation big scale fights for hours... idk.
 

Sykar

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Many people claim falsely that JA2 is not a crpg but not a single one supported this claim. So i ask, why JA2 that has more elements typically found in an average crpg than many of games from the codex top is not one. I would really like to know. A no, the meme about the "laptop guy" won't do.
In addition i'd like to know if Pathinder: Kingmaker is a crpg. Is it? Also the majority of games labelled as crpgs made before 1995. Are they crpgs?
I seriously don't get binary genre-affiliation when it comes to complex, hybrid games like JA2. Yes, it has a bunch of usual RPG-elements but it also has quite strong strategic elements so maybe for some strategy-enthusiast it's just a strategy with a set of RPG and tactical elements.

There's a game, Space Rangers 2 which contain crazy combination of various genre-elements: RPG, text-adventure, strategy, arcade, simulator... It's utterly pointless to highlight just one of these genres and call it a day.

So, FWIW, when I said "JA2 isn't an RPG" I was implied "to me". Strategy aspect is too... distracting for me there, resource min maxing and so on (which I don't mind at all, I like strategy games), it provides simply too different experience from a usual RPG-breeze. Only once I was tried to keep it at minimum and used just a few most powerful mercs but then again all thouse retaliation big scale fights for hours... idk.

Thing is you can basically ignore the RPG elements of JA 2 while still having fun and beat the game in the Vanilla version. It is first and foremost a strategy/tactical squad game. The RPG element is secondary and mostly relevant for mercs with low stats who either get tutored or with whom you do tedious stat point grinding but monsters like Magic, Scully, Scope, etc. could go from Drassen to Meduna without ever increasing anything but their level and would still kick major ass and an increase in level is literally nothing but the increase of a single number that primarily increases your chances to interupt the enemy or acting before the enemy acts on contact.
 
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CryptRat

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all the games we remember as true greats are flawed gems that were overambitious
No, most were not. Sure Arcanum has a big set of spells which ultimately is mediocre at best and compared to Fallout has dungeons and other crawling parts which are mediocre at best as well. Now, most of the other games we remember as true greats were not overambitious, ambitious in some way, sure, Fallout is in a lot of ways a unique game with a lot of work put into making it its own new thing, and the same can be said about Pools of Radiance for example, while the amount of content in Icewind Dale or Worlds of Xeen sure is big, but overambitious, no.
 

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Lilura, what would be the top 10 all-time GAMES list? I need to make sure I finish all of those games.
 

jackofshadows

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Thing is you can basically ignore the RPG elements while still having fun and beat the game in the Vanilla version. It is first and foremost a strategy/tactical squad game. The RPG element is secondary and mostly relevant for mercs with low stats who either get tutored or with whom you do tedious stat point grinding but monsters like Magic, Scully, Scope, etc. could go from Drassen to Meduna without ever increasing anything but their level and would still kick major ass and an increase in level is literally nothing but the increase of a single number that primarily increases your chances to interupt the enemy or acting before the enemy acts on contact.
I agree, sure. But again, experience may vary quite a lot which is actually matters. And I was also implied that these genre-wars can become ridiculous, really. nuXCOM 2 has now bunch of NPCs, special squad-members, lots of stats/perks, "quests", tactical scale is not as big as in JA2 for sure, etc etc but no one here is calling it RPG... right?
 
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Sykar

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Thing is you can basically ignore the RPG elements while still having fun and beat the game in the Vanilla version. It is first and foremost a strategy/tactical squad game. The RPG element is secondary and mostly relevant for mercs with low stats who either get tutored or with whom you do tedious stat point grinding but monsters like Magic, Scully, Scope, etc. could go from Drassen to Meduna without ever increasing anything but their level and would still kick major ass and an increase in level is literally nothing but the increase of a single number that primarily increases your chances to interupt the enemy or acting before the enemy acts on contact.
I agree, sure. But again, experience may vary quite a lot which is actually matters. And I was also implied that these genre-wars can become ridiculous, really. nuXCOM 2 has now bunch of NPCs, special squad-members, lots of stats/perks, "quests", tactical scale is not as big as in JA2 for sure, etc etc but no one here is calling it RPG... right?

Well to me it boils down to what the main focus of the game is. If it is not on classic RPG mechanics like character building, development, etc. then it probably is not an RPG but a game of a different genre with RPG elements.
 

jackofshadows

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Thing is you can basically ignore the RPG elements while still having fun and beat the game in the Vanilla version. It is first and foremost a strategy/tactical squad game. The RPG element is secondary and mostly relevant for mercs with low stats who either get tutored or with whom you do tedious stat point grinding but monsters like Magic, Scully, Scope, etc. could go from Drassen to Meduna without ever increasing anything but their level and would still kick major ass and an increase in level is literally nothing but the increase of a single number that primarily increases your chances to interupt the enemy or acting before the enemy acts on contact.
I agree, sure. But again, experience may vary quite a lot which is actually matters. And I was also implied that these genre-wars can become ridiculous, really. nuXCOM 2 has now bunch of NPCs, special squad-members, lots of stats/perks, "quests", tactical scale is not as big as in JA2 for sure, etc etc but no one here is calling it RPG... right?

Well to me it boils down to what the main focus of the game is. If it is not on classic RPG mechanics like character building, development, etc. then it probably is not an RPG but a game of a different genre with RPG elements.
Again, I agree (just prefer not to discard other aspects) so I'm curious about people's arguments who explicitly determine JA2 as RPG. I just don't care much about boundaries in this case so if OP states it's an RPG - fine, even if it seems odd to me.
 

Eisen

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I prefer to classify as a hybrid rather than a main genre. Deus Ex for example, is a FPS/RPG to me, but not an FPS with RPG elements, nor a RPG with FPS elements
 

Jason Liang

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Thing is you can basically ignore the RPG elements while still having fun and beat the game in the Vanilla version. It is first and foremost a strategy/tactical squad game. The RPG element is secondary and mostly relevant for mercs with low stats who either get tutored or with whom you do tedious stat point grinding but monsters like Magic, Scully, Scope, etc. could go from Drassen to Meduna without ever increasing anything but their level and would still kick major ass and an increase in level is literally nothing but the increase of a single number that primarily increases your chances to interupt the enemy or acting before the enemy acts on contact.
I agree, sure. But again, experience may vary quite a lot which is actually matters. And I was also implied that these genre-wars can become ridiculous, really. nuXCOM 2 has now bunch of NPCs, special squad-members, lots of stats/perks, "quests", tactical scale is not as big as in JA2 for sure, etc etc but no one here is calling it RPG... right?
Dragonfall = small squad + minimal management + strong story + based on a pnp rpg setting + magic + class archetypes = rpg
Darkest Dungeon = large squad + heavy management + weak story + magic + character classes = rpg
Jagged Alliance = large squad + heavy management + weak story + primary gameplay is wargaming + no magic + classless characters = not an rpg
 
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Jason Liang

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I don't even disagree with the idea that narrowing down your scope can produce a higher quality game, but it's not as simple as 'let's remove as many RPG elements/game mechanics as we can'.

And yet, all the games we remember as true greats are flawed gems that were overambitious and failed at some aspects, but delivered at others. Sure, keeping your ambitions low and making a more limited and tightly focused game creates an overall more solid and less flawed product, but it's the dream of overambitious games that really gets us going. Everything Troika made was an overambitious flawed gem, and we now remember them as one of the best RPG devs ever. Morrowind is flawed as fuck but is considered a beloved classic by many, and much more beloved than the more streamlined sequels. Gothic? Lots of flaws, but damn does it have soul. Etc etc.

Not all of them. Your favourite game was scaled down from its original vision, repurposed, refocused, and it's 10x better for it - and undeniably one of the best games of all time, bar none, to this day.

This sort of narrowing down of focus and intent into what works best for the project is almost impossible these days (for big titles anyway), since everything is managed from the top down and is designed by committee by a bunch of larping idiots who have no conception of what goes into actually making a game function.

Actual game design is truly becoming a lost art. People go to school these days to 'learn' from hipsters who have never made anything of worth in their entire lives, while game designers of 30+ years ago were largely self-taught engineers.

Fuck modern videogames.
 

Karellen

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So according to you, the fact that a bulk of CRPG discussion is centered around games from the 90's (and early 2000's, to be more precise) is 'proof' that there's something wrong with the genre itself? But not the fact that, with the exception of BioWare and Bethesda, every CRPG developer closed their doors in the late 90's or early 2000's? You're acting like we've been drowning in hundreds of CRPGs since the 90's, when you could basically count the number of CRPGs released in the decade prior to the Kickstarter renaissance on one hand.

Well, one could be hopeful and believe that the lack of quality RPGs after the 90s is merely due to some combination of developer sloth, bad luck and RPGs only barely being financially viable, so there weren't enough of them made to beat the odds. With the way the "Kickstarter renaissance" turned out, though, I think that may be wishful thinking. The thing is, one could very well think (and I think many people on the Codex did) that it should not be exceedingly difficult to improve on 90s CRPGs, because we know perfectly well that those games are deeply flawed and full of broken or halfbaked game mechanics. But, as it turns out, it is in fact very difficult to do so: the recent Kickstarter RPGs do in fact have a lot of polish and refinement in at least some aspects, and I think it would be unfair to say that they don't improve on 90s RPGs in that regard. However, that hasn't actually made for better games. Moreover, when they have their own flawed mechanics (as they, plainly, do), players do not treat such flaws with the compassion afforded to 90s classics. I don't know if having a lot more RPGs would really help, when it seems to be difficult to make even a passable CRPG, let alone a good one.

As for FTL, I think it's an interesting game to discuss from an RPG perspective because it possesses a coherence and interplay of systems that almost all CRPGs lack. It is thanks to this that FTL can have a strategically meaningful time limit, whereas CRPGs have essentially given up on time limits altogether; the random events, simplistic as they are, contribute well to the game as a whole, whereas in the context of most CRPGs they would be pointless or intrusive. And there is nothing there that couldn't be done in a more "CRPG-ish" form, since FTL's basic mechanics are so similar. It's true that in FTL, the emphasis is on building the ship rather than the crew, but mechanically, that's an insignificant distinction, because the ship building accomplishes the same things that character building does in a CRPG: the player gains resources from battles which can be used to improve the ship's combat and non-combat capabilities (including dialogue choices), there's resource management and attrition, shops to buy and sell equipment, and substantial variety in different builds that the player could go for, subject to change depending on random equipment drops, which haven't been balanced to irrelevance because the player can't necessarily just find the best equipment, and must sometimes make do with whatever weird stuff he finds.

Mostly, though, all of the above works together like a clockwork in a way that could only be attained through refinement. And refinement isn't even that hard, ultimately: FTL was made by two guys, you know? It's just CRPGs that are terribly difficult to improve through iteration, because the conventionally desirable RPG elements add up to such a grab-bag of disparate, isolated mechanics that it's not even obvious what one should be aiming at.
 

Dawkinsfan69

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  • Call of duty 10
  • call of dutoy 9
  • call of duty 8
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ok thats enough but u get the idea thanks subscribe for more dont 4get to donata to my patreon or you can donate via venmo or payapal also hjave u heard of raid shadow legends? its a sweet new mobile game where uou do stuff so use my link to download and buy shit in the game epic style
 

cvv

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Them kind of "everything's shit" posts are always bound to gain traction amongst the resident nolifers, nihilist and ne'erdowells.

Edgy aside the last few years have been the best era for RPGs since the first half of the 1990s ended. Whether you're a prestigious blobber fan, a TB fan, a realtime fan, a storyfag or a retarded isometric-fag there is some choice for you. Plus there's never been so many experimental, weird, bizzare and borderline RPGs you've never heard about ever before.
 

JarlFrank

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The problem with the modern Kickstarter RPGs that try to recapture the feel of the classics is that they're too polished and balanced. Developers feel that balance is gonna make a single player game better, for some reason. And by balance I mean obsessive equalizing of everything.

PoE has lacklustre combat abilities and weapon enchantments (at least it had them on release, I heard that it's been much improved since then... but the first impression was already made so it was too late). Where old D&D games like BG2 had mass disabling spells and weapons that could insta-decapitate an enemy on a crit, PoE has... +5% damage enchantments and spells that don't fully disable, only debuff. Yawn.
Wasteland 2 tries to balance all the non-combat skills by giving you regular and roughly equally numbered opportunities to use them. Every five steps you'll stumble upon a locked door that requires lockpicking, behind which there's a safe that requires safecracking, and on the table is a toaster that requires toaster repair. Rather than designing specific quests where those skills could come in handy during specific situations, the devs just flood you with junk to use your skills on so it feels like the point investments were worth it. Terrible.

Meanwhile in D&D games you get to use powerful spells which can also be used on you. Save or die spells? Haha yes. Mass disabling spells like web? Yup. Mind control spells? Uh-huh. Counter-spells to all those spells? Sure, there's a counter for everything! Spells are fun because they're varied and powerful and whenever you use one, you immediately feel its impact.
In Arcanum, magic and tech chars are super unbalanced. The magic char just invests some points into spells and can wreck everything. The first fucking harm spell you can get is one of the most powerful damage spells in the game lmao. Meanwhile tecchies suck hard until the endgame when they can finally build some OP items from all the schematics they found. Mage and techie playthroughs feel vastly different, which supports replayability.
Morrowind is infamous for its terribly unbalanced skills (alchemy especially) and how easily you can exploit them. Heck, the devs know how exploity their systems are and planted a guy with ridiculous reinforce acrobatics scrolls near the beginning, so you can cast one of those scrolls on yourself and gain the ability to jump higher than the game's fucking view distance, only to fall down and die on impact. Ridiculously broken? Yes. Fun? ALSO YES!

The issue with the modern crop of designers is that they think they can perfectly balance their systems so every skill and character class is equal, which only leads to a game that feels sterile. RPGs aren't supposed to be balanced, they're supposed to be fun. Spells and magic items are supposed to make a noticeable difference, and not just give incremental bonuses for the sake of balance. If you give the player skills and items that are overpowered, and then add some enemies that are also overpowered, then you have a great RPG at your hands. Add some opportunities for the player to fuck around creatively with his skills and items, and you got yourself a winner.

Modern designers like to restrain you. No, we can't let the player do this, that would be too ridiculous. FUCK YOU! It's not too ridiculous if it's fun.
 

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