Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

[Neanderthal]

Could have used that Kilrathi starfighter in farmer Mack's field.

 

[Jaesun]

Ultima VI had one of the best intro tunes.

I liked VIII's music better



Though I did cheat a little, and used the JV1080's superior GM sounds for this recording.

 

[Comte]

More Ultima 9 fun

 

[Neanderthal]

For me personally Guardian weren't antagonist o U7, that were Fellowship as a whole, I know that it were just a cheap pisstake o scientology but themes it brought were great. All them easy answers and constant reinforcement of indoctrinated supporting each other, as compared to Avatars virtues which state that you'll never be as good as you can be, well you can see why Batlin's bullshit were so easy to spread.

I know that everybody says how games were simpler back in day but i've not seen many match thematic strength o Ultimas, from Quests simple tale of a never ending quest of self improvement, Warriors moral absolutism, Prophets racism and multiple viewpoints.

Now what do we get instead walking simulators telling you to be emotional and feel something, about as complicated and nuanced as my hairy arse.

 

[Daemongar]

For me personally Guardian weren't antagonist o U7, that were Fellowship as a whole, I know that it were just a cheap pisstake o scientology but themes it brought were great. All them easy answers and constant reinforcement of indoctrinated supporting each other, as compared to Avatars virtues which state that you'll never be as good as you can be, well you can see why Batlin's bullshit were so easy to spread.

I know that everybody says how games were simpler back in day but i've not seen many match thematic strength o Ultimas, from Quests simple tale of a never ending quest of self improvement, Warriors moral absolutism, Prophets racism and multiple viewpoints.

Now what do we get instead walking simulators telling you to be emotional and feel something, about as complicated and nuanced as my hairy arse.

I kind of felt that in a lot of ways LB was a little ham handed in his caricature of the Fellowship, and they pretty much tipped their hand WAY too early that the Fellowship was in bed with the Guardian. I kind of wish that they would have somehow kept it under wraps a little more, but the passion play and interaction with Klog kind of cemented it. Not that it took away from the game, but there was never a doubt the Fellowship was up to no good, and Iolo pretty much has some shit things to say about the Fellowship attendees.

Honestly, not sure how the story was supposed to go down, but I kind of wished they would have kept the Fellowship and the Guardian parallel lines in the story, rather than the story itself. There wasn't a sense of uncovering the Fellowship, as pretty early on you knew. Also, people didn't abandon the shrines to the virtues because of the Fellowship, but because people eventually abandoned the eight virtues. It wasn't the Fellowship's fault.

Though why you need to start a religion to let the Guardian enter Britannia doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It was a cover?

 

[Jaesun]

Because the Fellowship needed to gain power and influence over Britannia, to gain major access to the Blackrock Mines and establish a base to create the gate for the Guardian to enter. It is very interesting seeing how the Fellowship infiltrated Minoc. And of course, the related events that follow.

And yes, the people were already becoming bored of the Virtues, the Fellowship was just a "new" religion to turn too. Sort of like real life...

 

[Excommunicator]

No better way to gain power than to create a fancy new cult. Happens all the time in the real world.

 

[V_K]

Did you ever play Cythera? It was supposed to be an Ultima-like.

Spoiler

It's possible to play in on a Mac emulator, I did it like 10 years ago or so, although I can't for the life of me remember how to set the emulator up.
The game is actually very good, combining some of the features of 7 (general look and feel), 5 (two-scale map) and UW (skills).

 

[Neanderthal]

I kind of felt that in a lot of ways LB was a little ham handed in his caricature of the Fellowship, and they pretty much tipped their hand WAY too early that the Fellowship was in bed with the Guardian. I kind of wish that they would have somehow kept it under wraps a little more, but the passion play and interaction with Klog kind of cemented it. Not that it took away from the game, but there was never a doubt the Fellowship was up to no good, and Iolo pretty much has some shit things to say about the Fellowship attendees.

Honestly, not sure how the story was supposed to go down, but I kind of wished they would have kept the Fellowship and the Guardian parallel lines in the story, rather than the story itself. There wasn't a sense of uncovering the Fellowship, as pretty early on you knew. Also, people didn't abandon the shrines to the virtues because of the Fellowship, but because people eventually abandoned the eight virtues. It wasn't the Fellowship's fault.

Though why you need to start a religion to let the Guardian enter Britannia doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It was a cover?

I never really minded Fellowship being a known bad influence from the start, well before start of game as I read Batlin's book of Fellowship first, mainly because it wasn't an investigation that we were undertaking but an examination of why Britannia was falling for this horseshit. It returned some nasty answers, that the virtues were hard to maintain and many couldn't, while the Triad of Inner Strength was an easy answer and attractive to the worst elements of society that allowed them to mask their weaknesses and spurn self examination in conformity. I regard that as a reminder of how organised religion can distort what is essentially a good idea, and how the virtues are made to be personal not organised.

Also it seemed to be saying, to me at least that the people needed their Avatar as an examplar, something to struggle towards and inspire them.

I think with the two century break and fresh start Garriot was examining the setting of Britannia again, and arguably I don't think he needed the Guardian for this, Batlin and the Fellowship were enough of an antagonist. A real challenge to the very existence of the virtues, the purpose of the Avatar and the way of life in Britannia. Concievably this split in society could have led to civil war in Britannia, instead of the plot of Ultima IX which was basically reusing the material of IV again. For me that would have been far more interesting, how the Avatar would react to a war between men and all the horrors it could unleash, and how the virtues stood up to that situation.

 

[Infinitron]

The remarkable thing about the Fellowship is that despite the fact that they were obviously creepy from the start, each one of them was creepy in his own way. They were not an army of identical villains. The amount of effort that went into humanizing them - and all of U7's characters, of course - was incredible.

There was no other game that had writing like that in the early 90s, and even today you'd be hard-pressed to find a game that did that sort of thing as comprehensively.

 

[Neanderthal]

Yeah like Owyn the Shipwright and his suicide, still leaves my Avatar conflicted, how the man could delude himself so thoroughly with the aid of the Fellowship and yet he takes responsibility and feels the guilt he should when faced with reality. Deep shit and what judgement can you make?

Also joining the Fellowship, one of the hardest things to do as a character i've seen in any game, it felt just so bloody wrong.

 

[octavius]

The remarkable thing about the Fellowship is that despite the fact that they were obviously creepy from the start, each one of them was creepy in his own way. They were not an army of identical villains. The amount of effort that went into humanizing them - and all of U7's characters, of course - was incredible.

There was no other game that had writing like that in the early 90s, and even today you'd be hard-pressed to find a game that did that sort of thing as comprehensively.

Wasn't most of the plot and dialogue of Ultima 7 done by a real writer, and not the usual wannabes?

 

[Infinitron]

Wasn't most of the plot and dialogue of Ultima 7 done by a real writer, and not the usual wannabes?

You mean Raymond Benson? Unfortunately it doesn't look like he really remembers how much of what who did, but it was a team effort: http://ultimacodex.com/interviews/w...ast-forever-an-interview-with-raymond-benson/

UC: You were the lead writer on Ultima 7, which is considered by many to be one of the best episodes of the series. How did you end up with the role? Could you tell us a bit about what your work consisted of, and how you worked with Richard Garriott and other team members?

RB: First of all, Richard Garriott is a genius. I had the greatest respect for him and still do. When he and I, or when the head guys from the various disciplines — programming and art, mainly — had brainstorming sessions, it was great fun and very inspiring. I was hired for the very reason that I was older (I was a few years older than Richard!), had experience in theatre, and because I already had some design credits under my belt. They knew I’d be placed as the head writer of either Ultima VII or Wing Commander II— and I landed on Ultima. The writing team was staffed with other writer-types who wanted to ultimately design. If I remember correctly, I had four people on my team. My task was to come up with the main storyline, the overall game arc that was the plot. Richard had the idea for the very beginning, the cut scene that is animated, with the Guardian first appearing and talking to the Avatar. So I knew I had to start the game with the Avatar going to Britannia to fight the Guardian. I knew he was the villain. Richard also had the idea of having a quasi-religious group in Britannia called The Fellowship, and they were really minions of the Guardian. That was what we had to start with. So I came up with the murder-mystery plot, in which the Avatar has to solve that murder in the barn at the beginning of the game…which leads to the ultimate quest of taking down The Fellowship (the Guardian would be spared for future titles). In many ways, it’s a formulaic James Bond plot! The Avatar has to use cunning and skill to investigate the mysterious organization, uncover its devious plot, travel to the main hideout, and confront the leader. I wrote a big script that outlined the various milestones in the game that the player had to achieve. Then, my writing team was assigned the “mini-plots” or “town plots” that took place in each individual town. Each person on the team was responsible for one or two towns. I oversaw the entire writing process and made sure everything held together — and it was a massive undertaking. Then, we had to write all the conversations for every character in the game.

By the way, the writing team consisted of Jack Herman, Mary Beth Miller, John Watson, and Andrew P. Morris, and I valued all of their work.

 

[Daemongar]

I regard that as a reminder of how organised religion can distort what is essentially a good idea, and how the virtues are made to be personal not organised.

I didn't read that much into it. In a sense, that may have been his message (I have that book "The Complete Book of Ultima" somewhere.) But at a point your extrapolating organized religion problems from The Fellowship seems to be a little bit of a reach. The individuals in the The Fellowship aren't really established to have been crooked before joining, my take is that the "inner voice" corrupted them. Not sure if it was ever established that criminals flocked to the Fellowship rather than the "Inner Voice" has corrupted their nature. In fact, Owen was a shitty shipmaker and a drunk BEFORE joining the Fellowship and during. But it wasn't the Fellowship that drove him to suicide, but guilt he carried to the Fellowship. Who was it that told Batlin to form the Fellowship?

Also, I don't believe the Virtues are personal. Essentially, there are shrines built, and they resonate thoughts. Someone had to build them. They don't look cheap. They guide you on a very specifc path, and if you try to interpret it on your own, well, you lose an eighth. Very rigid structure for a personal religious system.

 

[Daemongar]

The remarkable thing about the Fellowship is that despite the fact that they were obviously creepy from the start, each one of them was creepy in his own way. They were not an army of identical villains. The amount of effort that went into humanizing them - and all of U7's characters, of course - was incredible.

There was no other game that had writing like that in the early 90s, and even today you'd be hard-pressed to find a game that did that sort of thing as comprehensively.

You are on target, but it wasn't just the writing. The mingling of the images and the text was very well done. Think about the images: the crazy Fellowship recruiter in Britain - she spoke nuts, her image was of a typical nutty broad, and it meshed well. Even folks at the start: Fenn and Komor, Garrett, all of them. If they gave the player scripts to the artists, I don't think they could have done better.

 

[PeachPlumage]

What is the consensus on the Worlds of Ultima series? I know they are a spin off series and not necessarily a part of this threads discussion but I am generally interested in the codex's opinion of these and I didn't want to make a new thread just for this.

 

[Jaesun]

Both of the Underworld games, are a very enjoyable, very early, FPS action game, with a slight bit of the Ultima series thrown in for flavor. Many people can't get past the ancient 3D graphics though (and controls, but you can change all of the controls in DOSBox.

 

[PeachPlumage]

I should have specified - The Savage Empire and Martian Dreams when I meant the spin off games.

 

[Jaesun]

For the most part, some people like them, some don't. Both Savage Empire and Martian Dreams use the Ultima 6 engine, which many people just do not like. I think overall, they are mostly enjoyable games, if you can tolerate the interface and perspective. And they both have Roland MT-32 soundtracks, of which I need to record some day...

 

[PeachPlumage]

I haven't played the main Ultima series to any real extent apart from the first town of Ultima VII: The Black Gate, so I would gather the titles can be enjoyed without expecting an Ultima-like experience and/or baggage of the Ultima name. Merely a good for what they are type of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle adventure/rpg games. Not sure if that's the real gist of the whole mixed opinion and criticism of the games apart from the Ultima 6 engine powering them. More opinions from the codex would be appreciated.

btw Some day should come soon! Get to it!

 

[Neanderthal]

I didn't read that much into it. In a sense, that may have been his message (I have that book "The Complete Book of Ultima" somewhere.) But at a point your extrapolating organized religion problems from The Fellowship seems to be a little bit of a reach. The individuals in the The Fellowship aren't really established to have been crooked before joining, my take is that the "inner voice" corrupted them. Not sure if it was ever established that criminals flocked to the Fellowship rather than the "Inner Voice" has corrupted their nature. In fact, Owen was a shitty shipmaker and a drunk BEFORE joining the Fellowship and during. But it wasn't the Fellowship that drove him to suicide, but guilt he carried to the Fellowship. Who was it that told Batlin to form the Fellowship?

Also, I don't believe the Virtues are personal. Essentially, there are shrines built, and they resonate thoughts. Someone had to build them. They don't look cheap. They guide you on a very specifc path, and if you try to interpret it on your own, well, you lose an eighth. Very rigid structure for a personal religious system.

The Inner Voice of the Guardian isn't heard by many members at all, they all have to work towards it unless the Guardian judges them as useful, such as Gorn. Each member of the Fellowship in his backstory has personal problems before they come to the religion, instead of facing those problems and using the Virtues, they lose themselves in the conformity of their new religion, are encouraged to excuse their behaviour, attribute the blame to others while losing themselves in the support of the Fellowship which prioritises membership over improvement. It's not criminals who flock to the Fellowship, even on Buccaneers Den, but people who are at a moment of crisis and looking for easy answers.

People exactly like Owyn after his first ship was lost, who the Fellowship persuaded to keep working and blame others for his own ineptitude. Owyn commited suicide when faced with irrefutable proof of his manslaughter, the Avatar provided this not the Fellowship, but it was Owyns decision yes, and a sign that he realised what he had done, the depth of his crime and the stupidity of denying that and seeking solace in the support of the Fellowship. This somewhat redeems him in my eye. Batlin was corrupt and evil though, that's pretty obvious due to his actions and associations.

The Shrines were created by Lord British with magic before the Quest of the Avatar, sometime around the time Exodus awoke, as he took over the Isle of Fire where the three principles had their shrines. Any caretakers such as Nastassia are purely voluntary, it is not an organised religion like the Fellowship with branches across Britannia, it appears to be a rigid personal code that rewards virtuous behaviour. The disrepair of the Shrines in U7 shows that this is a hard belief to follow when there are easy answers such as the Fellowship provides, with constant reinforcement and blame to place on non members which is what we see Fellowship members do throughout the game.

 

[Jaesun]

so I would gather the titles can be enjoyed without expecting an Ultima-like experience and/or baggage of the Ultima name. Merely a good for what they are type of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle adventure/rpg games.

Basically yes.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

The fellowship in U7 I always figured was playing a long game by doing charitable works and the like. Many of their followers saw these acts as beacons of hope and proof as to the benevolence of the fellowship. Slowly and over time the leadership was corrupted.

I always found that thread to be very Tolkienesque and alalogous to Sauron's hundreds of years of humble servitude and charity following the fall of Melkor. Over centuries he dulled the world to his malice, eventually labouring for and then apprenticing with the great elven goldsmiths. Before he forged the rings they saw him as a trusted friend and taught him all they knew.

 

[Jaesun]

http://ultima.wikia.com/wiki/Batlin

 

[Daemongar]

The Inner Voice of the Guardian isn't heard by many members at all, they all have to work towards it unless the Guardian judges them as useful, such as Gorn. Each member of the Fellowship in his backstory has personal problems before they come to the religion, instead of facing those problems and using the Virtues, they lose themselves in the conformity of their new religion, are encouraged to excuse their behaviour, attribute the blame to others while losing themselves in the support of the Fellowship which prioritises membership over improvement. It's not criminals who flock to the Fellowship, even on Buccaneers Den, but people who are at a moment of crisis and looking for easy answers.

Nah, I kind of think the above is embellishment. The first Fellowship member with an actual backstory after meeting about 10 is the Fish and Chips vendor in Britain, and ok, Merrick in Paws (who again isn't evil, nor was in his previous life. He just hated starving.) You hear and observe evil acts by members, but there is another factor:

Constructed sometime after the founding of the Fellowship some twenty years prior to the Astronomical Alignment, the Cube Generator functioned to broadcast the voice of the Guardian to the people of Britannia, allowing the Destructor of Worlds to manipulate those he had earmarked for his service. The seemingly internal monologue of the Guardian's voice within people's consciousnesses eventually wormed its way into Fellowship ideology, with officials claiming that this "inner voice" helped adherents gain their full potential

There were those generators that messed up magic, trapped the time lord, and manipulation of citizens. Those people were not evil, and it wasn't the religion, but the Guardians evil influence.

People exactly like Owyn after his first ship was lost, who the Fellowship persuaded to keep working and blame others for his own ineptitude. Owyn commited suicide when faced with irrefutable proof of his manslaughter, the Avatar provided this not the Fellowship, but it was Owyns decision yes, and a sign that he realised what he had done, the depth of his crime and the stupidity of denying that and seeking solace in the support of the Fellowship. This somewhat redeems him in my eye. Batlin was corrupt and evil though, that's pretty obvious due to his actions and associations.

But the Fellowship didn't make him evil, or a shitty shipwright. But I was wrong: Owen turned to alcohol after feeling guilt over the deaths and after he had joined the Fellowship. The Fellowship propped him up, but there really isn't a mention of him blaming others for his own ineptitude. See : http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Owen - those guys have a good faq. The "inner voice" made him confident, not the Fellowship.

The Shrines were created by Lord British with magic before the Quest of the Avatar, sometime around the time Exodus awoke, as he took over the Isle of Fire where the three principles had their shrines. Any caretakers such as Nastassia are purely voluntary, it is not an organised religion like the Fellowship with branches across Britannia, it appears to be a rigid personal code that rewards virtuous behaviour. The disrepair of the Shrines in U7 shows that this is a hard belief to follow when there are easy answers such as the Fellowship provides, with constant reinforcement and blame to place on non members which is what we see Fellowship members do throughout the game.

Not really. Owen blames himself. Peterson eventually accepts responsibility and makes up with his wife (But he's an agent of the Guardian, so again, he's different.) Also, the shrines fell to disrepair because of the Gargoyles capturing them in Ultima 6, don't know if they were ever restored. In fact, they aren't until U9.

Also, my Complete Book of Ultima only goes up to Ultima VI, so I don't have the inside scoop on LB's opinion on The Fellowship