Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

[Doctor Sbaitso]

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Enjoying reading your virgin experiences Porky. Fired a save up to poke around a little and a couple hours melted away. I would pay Otherside good money for another game using this very engine and system.

This is what I see and read when using modeless right-click on the core grates.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Enjoying reading your virgin experiences Porky. Fired a save up to poke around a little and a couple hours melted away. I would pay Otherside good money for another game using this very engine and system.

Might be better to use the Arx Fatalis engine in that case, I think it offers much of the same functionality as the UU one but with much better graphics and a modern interface.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Arx is OK but it doesn't have the same feels.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Arx is OK but it doesn't have the same feels.

I guess if you played it when it first came out. As someone who played UU and Arx years after they came out, and without any sentimental attachments to either, here's how I would compare them:

Arx advantages:

- Arx has the better backstory and atmosphere. The whole angle with the dying sun is awesome, although the game doesn't really develop it much in terms of writing.

- Arx also obviously has the better graphics and interface, having 10 years of advancements to fall back on.

- I also prefer the way Arx had more back and forth level visits. In UU, sometimes you go back to previous levels to find extra rooms/spaces, but not that much. In Arx, it was everywhere.

- The spell system in Arx was better in that you could cast offensive spells in melee range, thus making magic a valid way to go through the game/engage in combat. In UU, it seems to be more of a utility thing.

UU advantages:

- The original. Obviously at least 90% of what's in Arx was first created in UU, so the game deserves a LOT of credit for that.

- The puzzles are much better. Arx had some good puzzles, but many others were too obscure and/or frustrating to solve without a lot of hair-pulling trial-and-error and/or online look-up. In UU, on the other hand, I almost never felt frustrated, even when I was stuck multiple times, I just calmly thought about things, and most times common sense and logic allowed me to arrive at various potential solutions to try.

 

[mindx2]

I hated the "draw the runes" magic system of Arx.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

PorkyThePaladin there is no accounting for taste, so here is mine.

Backtracking isn't exactly an asset unless it ties in with narrative.

Until you reach Arx the atmosphere is pretty good in Arx Fatalis but it drops off beyond the goblins IMO. It was a faithful attempt to recreate the UU vibe by fans of the original. Naturally graphics were advanced in the 10 years since UU was released and mouse look and WASD was added but largely there is nothing that Arx does interface wise that UU did not 10 years earlier.

Level design is admirable in Arx but masterwork in UU. Same can be said for systems in UU which in most cases are deeper and simulated. See above for one small example regarding health.

The automap in UU to this day is unsurpassed.

Quest design in UU is head and shoulders above Arx IMO.

To me one of the most significant differentiators in favour of UU is how the story is not told to you. You discover it through organic world interaction. No scripted sequences, no telling us what our motivations should be. We peel the onion ourselves and in so doing I find the narrative and setting well beyond Arx.

Arx had fantastic sound design.

I have enjoyed Arx a few times now and I still remember how excited I was at release, hoping it would end the 10 year wait for a return to the UU vibe. Early I was loving it and I played right through, enjoying it quite a bit but in the end it was underwhelming. Around that time is when I adopted my opinion that graphics are maybe 20% of the experience.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Backtracking isn't exactly an asset unless it ties in with narrative.

I didn't mean it in the sense of backtracking, but more like, you could only visit certain parts of a level on the first go, and the other parts could only be accessed via later levels or hidden ways that would become available later on. I guess you could argue for either approach, but Arx's felt like it tied the levels together more strongly.

The automap in UU to this day is unsurpassed.

Agree, I love the way the map works.

Quest design in UU is head and shoulders above Arx IMO.

Yeah, that's part of what I meant by better puzzles, it just flows more naturally in UU.

To me one of the most significant differentiators in favour of UU is how the story is not told to you. You discover it through organic world interaction. No scripted sequences, no telling us what our motivations should be. We peel the onion ourselves and in so doing I find the narrative and setting well beyond Arx.

Not sure how I feel about this. I think as long as the gameplay is solid, I can go either way, but I hear your point.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I have done it! Just finished UU without looking up any hints online, entirely on my own. :kwafuckyeah:

At the end, there was something that I heard about before, but never saw, an actual gold looking certificate, congratulating me on completing the game, and asking me to call the devs to let them know I did it. How fucking cool is that? And considering that back in 1992, there was no modern Internet yet, so you couldn't look stuff up online, I am not surprised that there were probably not that many people who finished a game that demanded this much effort from the player. For those of you who played it back then, did any of you exchange in-game war stories with Paul Neurath, Warren Spector, etc?

Holy crap, I feel so good about finishing it too. Yesterday, I felt like I might not be able to do it, because I was missing a couple of items needed for the final push, and had no idea how/where to get them, and I already explored the entire Abyss by that point, so the prospects of going back and re-exploring everything with a fine comb didn't sound appealing. But again, this game stepped up for the occasion, and using logic, looking over my hand-written notes, and having a couple of insights did the trick, as it had the entire run.

Spoiler

So by yesterday, I put Garamon's remains into his grave, and he told me that I need to throw the 8 talismans into the volcano. Well, when I say he told me, actually, I told him, as he was asking me the whole conversation how we should do this. That was awesome! The only slight problem? While I had no difficulties obtaining 7 talismans, I was still missing the freaking cup, of which, unlike the others, no NPC spoke as far as I knew. On top of that, I was also missing the third part of the tri-key to open the volcano chamber. Had zero idea where to get either of those items, so I was preparing myself for either a long, exhausting re-exploration of each level, or giving in and looking up a hint online. Two terrible options.

But today, I was shocked by how good the cup "quest" was. As I was thinking about it the whole day (even before playing), I came up with several things I could do to try to track those items down. A few of those were dead-ends, but then at some point, I remembered how I smelled a burning incense way before, after a mage told me it gave him visions of the demon, but all I saw was some weird ass chalice with some random looking symbols. At the time, I had no idea what any of it meant, and prompty forgot it. But now I was thinking about a cup, and my curiosity was aroused. On top of that, I was thinking about those random symbols, and recalled another female mage saying something about some mantra being broken apart into 3 parts and how you could use it to summon items. So I hauled my ass over several levels, looking through crap I stored earlier, and found a bunch of incense. Smoked up like I was a hippy at Burning Man, and saw the different cup pictures and as I expected by that point, there were 3 sets of symbols. So i run over to the shrine of virtues on level 5, thinking i ll chant that stuff there and hopefully get the cup. No such luck, as it was just a triangulating mechanism, which I followed until it brought me to that cave on level 3. I run over there, nope no cup. But the shrines gave it a name for the first time, the cup of wonder, and guess what, my handwritten notes had one for a flute melody called something of wonder, and I put 2 and 2 together. Next thing I know, I am playing music and holding the cup. How fucking cool is that whole "quest"line?

Anyways, after that, I switched over to the key part. Tried a bunch of stuff, none of it worked, I was planning to do a level 8 run for gold coins to give to the dwarf king to see if he will grant me the password to his hoard (yeah, that's a part I haven't figured out ), when I decided to pay a visit to the prison cells again, to see the dwarf who helped me find the first part of the key. Just wanted to talk with him, see if he had any more clues, he didn't. But when I got there, I realized the mage who started me on the 2nd part of the key was in an adjacent cells. And there were 3 cells, with a useless human prisoner in the third, who only offered to sketch a map for me, which I refused earlier since I already mapped out that whole area. But the threesome thing got me thinking, and I asked him for the map. And that of course led to the third part of the key.

Anyways, an amazing game that's pretty much the epitome of intelligent gameplay. Not sure at exactly what spot, but will definitely breach my top 10.

 

[octavius]

Ultima Underworld was like the game I had dreamt about becoming a reality one day.
Finding the Cup of Dreams is probably the hardest puzzle in the game. But I recall being able to complete it in the pre-Internet days back in '93, playing it on my brother's 386. My gaming buddy had a buff 486, on which Ultima Underworld was a marvel to behold, while I was still stuck with an Amiga.

 

[Fowyr]

Just got sudden two golems and troll in that part of level 8 where ring of resist magic is.
I wonder if it's respawn or monsters were spawned by picking gold and other stuffies.

I'm ignoring (not litelrally) you, Porky, for the time being. Do not want to spoil myself more than necessary, I forgot too much. Now I run like headless chicken on Level 7 and have a lot of fun.
Congratulations for stopping our red slashing friend.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I'm ignoring (not litelrally) you, Porky, for the time being. Do not want to spoil myself more than necessary, I forgot too much. Now I run like headless chicken on Level 7 and have a lot of fun.
Congratulations for stopping our red slashing friend.

Yeah, I understand. I ignored some posts in this thread too while I was playing, but now will probably go back and read the whole damn thing, that's how much I enjoyed the game. And yeah, level 7... What a glorious clusterfuck!

Speaking of which, what are your guys' thoughts on how the levels stack up in terms of quality? In my opinion, the good ones are levels 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7. They all got a lot of stuff going on, lots of interesting things to discover, puzzles to solve, and NPCs to meet. Levels 2 and 5 are a bit worse, with too many empty tunnels and not enough going on compared to the others. And level 8 is probably the worst.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Level 5 is clearly the worst, it feels like a series of disjointed sets and rooms. Level 6 also suffers from this, though not as much. I don't mind Level 8 that much as it's meant to be a giant underground cavern, and it works in that regard.

Many of the floors are going for a "four quadrants" theme, but the best floors are the ones that ignore the theme. I think Level 3 is the best floor, it has a circular outer area that can be traversed without needing to enter the center.

 

[smileyninja]

Did you guys know about this project:




A guy was making a tool to export the UU maps and assets into a Thief engine (Dark Mod). He eventually switched to Unity. Forum entries are here: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=6045.0

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Interesting - very interesting indeed. He clearly has a long way to go, but more important I think Otherside Entertainment would LOVE to get a hold of him.

Let's see where this goes.

 

[Malignant Manor]

I really wish it wasn't in Unity.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Congrats on your first play through Porky. Nothing will ever be as good.

UU2 is definitely worth a play as well. I personally find it to be VASTLY inferior (mostly due to its thematic incoherence and the fact that it feels more like "Ultima VII:Gaiden than UU2), but it's still a very good game.

 

[Fowyr]

Chairs could be turned around by bumping.
I bumped a little anti-magic orb from its pedestal too. Could not bump it to the lava.


Tyball is dead. Of course, after starting level 7 I quickly found secret backdoor because place was suspicious and I had Reveal scroll and next several hours I tried to find long " proper" way.

Crystal splinter works in container too. That wall also could be dispelled with Reveal.
All level 7 illusionary walls could not be dispelled with search skill, even when it's 30.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I bumped a little anti-magic orb from its pedestal too. Could not bump it to the lava.

Maybe you already know this, but there is something else you can do with it.

Spoiler

You can find pieces of orb rock on level 8 in the northeast (if you use the north-east stairs from level 7), using those on the orb will destroy it and allow you to have mana/cast spells again on level 7. I think the wizard NPC in the tunnels near the spider caves gives you hints about that.

Tyball is dead. Of course, after starting level 7 I quickly found secret backdoor because place was suspicious and I had Reveal scroll and next several hours I tried to find long " proper" way.

Lucky you. I used up my only Reveal scroll before. I found that place suspicious too, and kept rubbing against it with my 30 search skill, but like you say, nada.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

FYI, the speedrun of Ultima Underworld uses the lone Reveal scroll on that exact spot to skip all of Level 7.

That is, the last speedrun I watched did so. That clocked in at 17 minutes, 25 seconds. I check on YouTube now, and the current record seems to be 16 minutes, 39 seconds. And as I start watching that, I see room for improvement...all the way down to the 15 minute mark, I'd guess.

(Watching the Avatar gain Level 12 just by running around and doing the essential things is amusing.)

 

[Fowyr]

Maybe you already know this, but there is something else you can do with it.

Yup.
Antimagic+antimagic=0 as said writing in the cell.

I am just mesmerized by UU's engine. Slopes are obvious, but bumping objects before even Wolf3D. Bridges, BTW, are indeed objects (dead giveaway is "blast" animation after casting Fireball on it, or their destroying after Vas Kal Corp).

I used up my only Reveal scroll before.

I had three of them and I used all on this level. One on Tyball backdoor and two in the crypts.

Unkillable Cat, this crypt secret is indeed very scary.

Spoiler

Dire ghost are already creepy, but this is turning it to the max.

 

[Junmarko]

UU2 is definitely worth a play as well. I personally find it to be VASTLY inferior (mostly due to its thematic incoherence and the fact that it feels more like "Ultima VII:Gaiden than UU2), but it's still a very good game.

I always thought in both games you should have played as one of LB's troops - it would have made a lot more sense. Especially in UU2, as Spoony says "What, you just show up fat and out of shape, again?!".

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I have only played UW2 twice, finishing it once. The Abyss had such wonderful level design that the disparate planes of UW2 paled in comparison from a setting perspective. Deep and oppressive dungeon to a slate of themed amusement park sections kind of thing.

 

[Junmarko]

Did you guys know about this project:




A guy was making a tool to export the UU maps and assets into a Thief engine (Dark Mod). He eventually switched to Unity. Forum entries are here: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=6045.0

I keep re-watching it just to see that smooth door animation haha. Hope this doesn't become vaporware.

 

[smileyninja]

Did you guys know about this project:






A guy was making a tool to export the UU maps and assets into a Thief engine (Dark Mod). He eventually switched to Unity. Forum entries are here: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=6045.0

I keep re-watching it just to see that smooth door animation haha. Hope this doesn't become vaporware.

On page 9 or 10 of the forum there's a demo. He also has a git hub page with the source. Looks like the last update was a couple months ago.