Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Brother None]

Good stuff felipe.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

I was able to open that safe, your safe-cracker is clearly a retard.

Actually the real retard is me for not being able to figure out how to put the code in, but I got a password, and the input was just numbers.

 

[Infinitron]

I can understand why 3D RPGs go for the "wiggly paths" look. Fact is, the first 3D RPGs actually did try to replicate the classic "houses on a flat grid" look of 2D RPGs...and the result was pretty bad looking. It seems 3D graphics only really came into their own when they shed the wannabe-2D "tile-based" approach and went for a more "prefabricated" look.

For example, here's a game that most of the Codex probably thinks looked horrible:

(I happen to think that NWN2 went too far in the "prefabricated tunnels" direction, but hey, can you blame them with all the whining NWN1 probably received about this?)

 

[Niektory]

I can understand why 3D RPGs go for the "wiggly paths" look. Fact is, the first 3D RPGs actually did try to replicate the classic "houses on a flat grid" look of 2D RPGs...and the result was pretty bad looking. It seems 3D graphics only really came into their own when they shed the wannabe-2D "tile-based" approach and went for a more "prefabricated" look.

Bullshit. Van Buren looked just fine.

 

[Infinitron]

Did it? I dunno, that's just one carefully selected screenshot from an unreleased game. In a full, released game, I could see people raging about the camera or the bland colors or whatever, just like they did with NWN.

Note that I'm not saying it's impossible to make a good-looking "griddy" 3D game, just that I can understand why developers have moved away from that.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

I can understand why 3D RPGs go for the "wiggly paths" look. Fact is, the first 3D RPGs actually did try to replicate the classic "houses on a flat grid" look of 2D RPGs...and the result was pretty bad looking. It seems 3D graphics only really came into their own when they shed the wannabe-2D "tile-based" approach and went for a more "prefabricated" look.

For example, here's a game that most of the Codex probably thinks looked horrible:

(I happen to think that NWN2 went too far in the "prefabricated tunnels" direction, but hey, can you blame them with all the whining NWN1 probably received about this?)

This is a bullshit rationalization for shitty game design.

 

[tuluse]

Infinitron have you heard of this company called Bethesda. They make games where the overworld map is almost completely open and they look just fine. Their latest game was quite popular too, selling over 20 million copies!

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

To expand - I feel like that's not only a bullshit rationalization, I don't even think it's a correct one. Now devs are so interested in the "narrative", and afraid of breaking said narrative that they give you a preset path to follow. The path may branch to allow alterations on their narrative, but I feel that this interpretation makes a lot more sense than some BS "but camera angles!" reasoning.

 

[tuluse]

I don't think the corridor like design of W2 is because of narrative reasons.

I think it's because of encounter design reasons.

 

[Infinitron]

All I know is that when NWN2 came out, although it's tunnelness did annoy me, I also remember thinking that "Yeah, this is what NWN1 should have looked like, more or less. That half-assed tile-based look wasn't really fooling anybody."

Infinitron have you heard of this company called Bethesda. They make games where the overworld map is almost completely open and they look just fine. They're lastest game was quite popular too, selling over 20 million copies!

Yeah, maybe. Not sure how well that would look and play if you zoomed out and gave it a point and click interface, though. I wonder if you could do that with mods.

 

[felipepepe]

I can understand why 3D RPGs go for the "wiggly paths" look. Fact is, the first 3D RPGs actually did try to replicate the classic "houses on a flat grid" look of 2D RPGs...and the result was pretty bad looking. 3D graphics only really came into their own when they shed the wannabe-2D "tile-based" approach and went for a more "prefabricated" look.

I get that the wiggly thing is a "organic" look. Even Might & Magic went wiggly when it went 3D:

But that's a dungeon, not a goddamn settlement. You mention Neverwinter Nights, but 12 years ago NWN already had free 3D camera, huge areas, buildings that you can actually enter, and looked quite good for the time:

Oh yeah, and now we have Divinity: Original Sin:

Massive areas with no loading time, rotating camera, fantastic graphics, move any item on the screen, enter any building you want... all that in co-op. Meanwhile in W2 we get an entire settlement made of corridors where you can't even open a door.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually, there are people complaining about D:OS's tunnel maps too.

Not really related to the update, but when running around in Cyseal wilderness, I think there's too much rock formations blocking travel. I mean, there's nice tidy pathways leading everywhere, but that's the thing, open up the place a little, there's no need to guide players from one pathway to another all the time. There's a few places where you can run around without running into another stone wall for a while, but it's not enough imo. This has been bugging me for a while, had to say it now.

I guess I wish for more Baldur's gate style wilderness areas, where it's widely open with landmarks and few stones here and there (not all of the maps ofc). Examples:

Spoiler

Spoiler

River makes a natural barrier here:

Spoiler

 

[tuluse]

All I know is that when NWN2 came out, although it's tunnelness did annoy me, I also remember thinking that "Yeah, this is what NWN1 should have looked like, more or less. That half-assed tile-based look wasn't really fooling anybody."

Infinitron have you heard of this company called Bethesda. They make games where the overworld map is almost completely open and they look just fine. They're lastest game was quite popular too, selling over 20 million copies!

Yeah, maybe. Not sure how well that would look and play if you zoomed out and gave it a point and click interface, though. I wonder if you could do that with mods.

Well then I can just point to the large number of 3D strategy games. Warcraft 3, Warhammer 40k Dawn of War, the Total War series. They all look just fine. Total War battle maps are complete open and natural looking.

 

[Infinitron]

Well then I can just point to the large number of 3D strategy games. Warcraft 3, Warhammer 40k Dawn of War, the Total War series. They all look just fine. Total War battle maps are complete open and natural looking.

Strategy games call for a different sort of map design, though. You don't actually need to interact with stuff, and players are more willing to accept a somewhat "abstract"-looking battlescape as they've got their hands full managing their armies.

Anyway, again, not saying it's impossible.

 

[felipepepe]

Actually, there are people complaining about D:OS's tunnel maps too.

True, they could be way more open. But still, even their wiggly paths are larger and have a feeling of progression, of exploration. W2's paths are just the connection between event/NPC/enemy A to event/NPC/enemy B, with perhaps a chest in between.

 

[tuluse]

Strategy games call for a different sort of map design, though. You don't actually need to interact with stuff, and players are more willing to accept a somewhat "abstract"-looking battlescape as they've got their hands full managing their armies.

Anyway, again, not saying it's impossible.

You haven't actually played any of the games I listed have you?

Warcraft 3 had neutral enemies to kill and shops.

Dawn of War has environment based cover, and strategic points that need to be captured.

Starting with Empire, Total War had destructible buildings which can also be entered. With Shogun 2 it has stuff like shrines that can be taken for strategic benefit.

Plus, the entire point of an overhead pseudo-isometric view point is to increase abstraction.

If your point is that level design is hard, I'll concede that. I think making good levels is very hard and that's why it's so rare and it should be praised whenever it happens. However, just because something is hard doesn't mean I'm just going to excuse InXile for making below average levels.

 

[Infinitron]

You haven't actually played any of the games I listed have you?

Played all of them except Shogun 2.

And sorry but I still don't think you can directly compare RTS and RPG map design like that. They just have different requirements.

But again:

Anyway, again, not saying it's impossible.

If your point is that level design is hard, I'll concede that. I think making good levels is very hard and that's why it's so rare and it should be praised whenever it happens. However, just because something is hard doesn't mean I'm just going to excuse InXile for making below average levels.

I'm not sure if it's hard or if they're just used to doing things a certain way, because, as I said, players have responded negatively to "2D-like" map design in 3D games in the past.

Speaking of inXile, you might want to check out The Bard's Tale. The first town in that game has a "houses on a grid" map design. I think I've mentioned this before.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Ok, now I played the Prison level (thansk to Hiver's rangers). First, here's the map of the first (and largest) area:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Fixed. A little at least..... Putting some nice reactivity in a blank spot I made would surely help....

 

[tuluse]

You haven't actually played any of the games I listed have you?

Played all of them except Shogun 2.

I guess I'm just confused why you said they don't have interaction then.

I'm not sure if it's hard or if they're just used to doing things a certain way, because, as I said, players have responded negatively to "2D-like" map design in 3D games in the past.

Speaking of inXile, you might want to check out The Bard's Tale. The first town in that game has a "houses on a grid" map design. I think I've mentioned this before.

I think people complained about NWN looking bad because of technical reasons. It did and does look terrible. That has nothing to do with map design.

And sorry but I still don't think you can directly compare RTS and RPG map design like that. They just have different requirements.

Well they're not meeting the requirements of a good RPG, so they might as well at least make the tactical combat part of their game fun.

Anyways to summarize:

Maps can't be compared to 2D RPGs that had good map design because 3D has some inherent property where open maps starting look bad for no other reason.

Maps can't be compared to current open 3D RPG maps, because those use a camera that is more zoomed in.

Maps can't be compared to 3D strategy games which use the exact same view point because they have less "interaction".


I guess I can see how when you can't draw inspiration from anything that has ever existed, it would be hard to make good maps.

 

[Infinitron]

Maps can't be compared to 2D RPGs that had good map design because 3D has some inherent property where open maps starting look bad for no other reason.

I could probably come up with a few ideas as to what that inherent property is, but I'm getting kind of bored of this conversation, so fuck it.

 

[Johannes]

Is there any redeeming qualities on this turd?

 

[felipepepe]

Is there any redeeming qualities on this turd?

I think that the graphics are great (especially since the patch), the portraits are cool, and that are some rare glimpses of greatness, like the giant frogs that swallow guns, or the caution they had to make the Highpool maze solo-able. But that's it. For all the heritage, promises, developers and hype that Wasteland 2 carries, it is just too little.

I wouldn't call it a turd... In many ways, it is like Legend of Grimrock: it takes a kind of game that hasn't been made in ages and brings it to modern audiences, but it is very shallow and uninspired next to its peers. All production, no soul; the right elements are there, but the game doesn't do anything clever with them. The combat is simplistic, skills aren't interesting, quests are boring, exploration feels dull, and the tone is a mess between grimdark post-apoc and pop culture references & dadjokes. The "desert-police" approach makes the game feels more like Fallout Tactics than F1 or W1, where you do a mission, report to base, then get another mission, without being able to do stuff on your own. And the setting as a whole feels underplayed; they could have thrown ANYTHING at you, yet the most "creative" thing you face are killer bunnies, that overused Monty Python joke that every game ever already did.

In the end, it will probably sell well, score a 7.5-8 average on metacritic and be a success for inXile... but for most Codexers, I think that all it offers is the fact that it is a new full party creation turn-based game, and perhaps that someone else might see that there's a market for this and develop a great game. But with Divinity:Original Sin probably being released before W2, I'd say that not even that is a given.

 

[poetic codex]

Seems a bit too early to form such a strong opinion on how the game will turn out. This beta is more of an alpha and I expect significant changes as they fine tune the game. But i understand the disappointment. Expectations were too high. It was the most anticipated of the "incline" games on the codex, and we went in expecting Fallout 1 when Wasteland is its own universe with a different tone. The bunnies were there in the original game. I encourage anyone to play the original Wasteland for a bit, to get a sense of the tone, then replay the beta.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

It will be like Shadowrun Returns an enjoyable but forgettable and overly zany and corny RPG lite where they will make a somewhat more solid expansion.

 

[Grotesque]

I wonder if the L.A. section of the game will also look like a cave without a "roof".

I just don't get it. You can make perfectly complex quests by just putting the content on a plane. Why you have to be guided through content? The only downfall is that a player can miss some quests/not completing some by not exploring completly the said plane.

The loot: actually in Fallout (which also takes place in a fuckin' wasteland) I was fine in exploring tons of shacks with empty shelves only to find some junk from time to time. Because it was believable to be so, helped immersion and when I finally got my hands on something useful (in a remote area where the average Joe has no access) it was a nice surprise.

Well, someone like sea that thinks that every time you turn a door knob something awesome must happen, said that this is lazy map design.
I'll take the Fallout's "lazy" map design any time over Wastleand 2 map design.