Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

To be honest, there is a fairly good chance I won't like it (based on what I've seen so far) and if I write what I think most people will assume that I'm jealous/bitter/butthurt - take your pick.

Even on the Codex when I was saying things that should have been obvious to everyone - there is no way they can do a decent RPG in 18 months, the design of quests that were shown or given as examples seemed to be too simplistic, etc, many people felt that my opinion was driven by jealousy over the fact that Fargo is so successful and/or my own inability to make a game in 18 months. Now, those were just quick forum posts. A front page review? I'll be eaten alive.

Really? That's your reason? Come on.

There's a difference between a fully-considered appraisal of a finished product and a snap judgement of a work-in-progress. People will realize that.

 

[mindx2]

You know the truth... you want another Tim Shafer "rolling his eyes at your comments" moment captured on video for future prosparity, don't you?

Nah... I may bash W2 a bit, but the InXile guys are cool people. Even with all my drama, Brother None and Colin still agreed to write for the book, and I respect all of them as bros.

What a deluded man-child like Tim Schafer and most of gaming press don't understand is that criticizing one work is not a personal offense. Personally, I like when people criticize my stuff, either the book or in my day job, because it shows that they care. Apathy is death bro.

Just playing with you my friend...

 

[Tigranes]

Give it to someone with actually inclined opinions and not a 'character'. Personally id enjoy doing more codex reviews but I have a sense that my expeditions preview wasn't enjoyed so much. Well, I can prattle on in the threads just fine

Or if you must, TwinkieGorilla vs Vault Dweller battle pls

 

[Vault Dweller]

Really? That's your reason? Come on.

The fact is that many people, including yourself, are having trouble separating me from my game. AoD's been brought up frequently when I commented on WL2 design decisions and I can't say that I'm too eager to explain myself over and over again. Maybe these people are right and as a developer of my own game (that's very far from perfect and isn't the Codex's wet dream come true), I shouldn't be criticizing other people's games.

I do it because I don't see criticism as a personal insult but that's exactly how many people would see it.

There's a difference between a fully-considered appraisal of a finished product and a snap judgement of a work-in-progress. People will realize that.

There is no real difference between a fully considered appraisal (which is like my opinion man) and a "snap judgement" on what's been shown (and nothing else), if both are explained.

Or if you must, TwinkieGorilla vs Vault Dweller battle pls

I don't think that TwinkieGorilla is a huge fan of the game these days.

 

[Infinitron]

I have a sense that my expeditions preview wasn't enjoyed so much

Why? Can't have been more of a disaster than ironyuri's review...

Really? That's your reason? Come on.

The fact is that many people, including yourself, are having trouble separating me from my game. AoD's been brought up frequently when I commented on WL2 design decisions and I can't say that I'm too eager to explain myself over and over again. Maybe these people are right and as a developer of my own game (that's very far from perfect and isn't the Codex's wet dream come true), I shouldn't be criticizing other people's games.

I do it because I don't see criticism as a personal insult but that's exactly how many people would see it.

There's a difference between a fully-considered appraisal of a finished product and a snap judgement of a work-in-progress. People will realize that.

There is no real difference between a fully considered appraisal (which is like my opinion man) and a "snap judgement" on what's been shown (and nothing else), if both are explained.

Sorry man, but you just sound whiney now. There are valid reasons for you not to want to review WL2, but this just seems silly. Oh well.

 

[Darkzone]

I think Vault Dweller is correct in his opinion, that he is currently the wrong guy to do a review of Wasteland 2. The stones and the glass house are not a good combination, and to be honest he has to throw them.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

I don't think that TwinkieGorilla is a huge fan of the game these days.

Indeed. If all we get in the full release are a few more locations as shitty as what we've been shown already I'd say I'm on the far side of fandom.

p.s. VD is absolutely right that people, including a past version of myself, used and likely would continue to use the lazy and all-too-easy accusation that he's "jealous" (though it should be absolutely clear to anybody who's played the betas of AoD and WL2 to be accused of being a complete dumbfuck for making said accusation).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry man, but you just sound whiney now.

I explained why (without complaining, mind you), yet you instantly dismissed the explanation and replaced it with 'whiney', thus proving my point.

 

[Infinitron]

Sorry man, but you just sound whiney now.

I explained why (without complaining, mind you), yet you instantly dismissed the explanation and replaced it with 'whiney', thus proving my point.

There's nothing to dismiss. Not posting your opinion of something because you're afraid of random Codexers' reactions is whiney.

And yes, VD, there IS a real difference between commenting on a WIP and long-form appraisal of a finished game (even if they both have "explanation"), but fuck it

 

[throwaway]

Not that I like how personal this is getting but I certainly wouldn't expect an Ubersturmfuhrer to mind the reactions of the crowd.

 

[Tigranes]

I have a sense that my expeditions preview wasn't enjoyed so much

Why? Can't have been more of a disaster than ironyuri's review...

Really? That's your reason? Come on.

The fact is that many people, including yourself, are having trouble separating me from my game. AoD's been brought up frequently when I commented on WL2 design decisions and I can't say that I'm too eager to explain myself over and over again. Maybe these people are right and as a developer of my own game (that's very far from perfect and isn't the Codex's wet dream come true), I shouldn't be criticizing other people's games.

I do it because I don't see criticism as a personal insult but that's exactly how many people would see it.

There's a difference between a fully-considered appraisal of a finished product and a snap judgement of a work-in-progress. People will realize that.

There is no real difference between a fully considered appraisal (which is like my opinion man) and a "snap judgement" on what's been shown (and nothing else), if both are explained.

Sorry man, but you just sound whiney now. There are valid reasons for you not to want to review WL2, but this just seems silly. Oh well.

Heh. Poor fellow. He's still around on steam, in sad self-imposed exile. Well I'm always up to do more if the staff wants.

Anyway, VD is right. Id love to read his review and maybe he should do it and not givve a shit about the idiots, but its true half the resulting thread will be at least wl2 doesn't teleport trolololol etc.

 

[mindx2]

I'd love to review it but I'm afraid my writing style is too narrative without the nuts & bolts mechanics analysis that the Codex seems to prefer. There are way too many others here that are more knowledgeable when it comes to that aspect of cRPGs. Me, I just look at what makes a game "fun" (writing, encounters, world setting/ lore, plot, etc.) and that can be quite subjective. Which is what reviews really are, I guess.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Not that I like how personal this is getting but I certainly wouldn't expect an Ubersturmfuhrer to mind the reactions of the crowd.

Not posting your opinion of something because you're afraid of random Codexers' reactions is whiney.

If you say so.

I posted a plenty of opinion on WL2 design but every time the discussion inevitably turned to AoD and the possible personal reasons behind such opinions. I don't really care if my opinion rubs someone the wrong way and I love design discussions but I don't want to go through pages of personal shit. Not because I give a fuck (I wouldn't be on the Codex otherwise) but because it's tiring.

Thus the question becomes "how badly do I want to bitch about WL2 design?" In case you didn't notice I didn't say a word about WL2 since the beta was released.

And yes, VD, there IS a real difference between commenting on a WIP and long-form appraisal of a finished game (even if they both have "explanation"), but fuck it

None whatsofucking ever.

It would be wrong to criticize an entire unreleased game based on some design examples or even the video, but it's perfectly ok (and in fact helpful or should be) to criticize these bits and pieces on their own and the design philosophy" behind them.

 

[Infinitron]

None whatsofucking ever.

It would be wrong to criticize an entire unreleased game based on some design examples or even the video, but it's perfectly ok (and in fact helpful or should be) to criticize these bits and pieces on their own and the design philosophy" behind them.

The key word being "should". However, in practice, people will respond with more respect to a ten page review with a stamp of "official" on it, than they will to somebody's comment about how "RPGs take 3 years to develop because Tim Cain said that ten years ago". Unless the review is shit of course.

And, since my arguments with you back in 2012 seem to be the unspoken subtext of this little exchange, let me state for the record that while I still think it would be possible to create a small (Fallout 1-sized or slightly less) RPG in 18 months, I was probably too eager to believe that would indeed be the case.

 

[Shadenuat]

I'd read VD's review, I don't set AoD and Wasteland 2 that much apart in my crazy head. The first time I played W2's beta it looked like a garage produced game that crashed like unpatched troika game, albeit with some nice VO and art assets. But what I was thinking all the time while watching as W2 team struggles to put together a decent UI or char gen screen, or a cool starting location with quests, is that they are either out of shape or don't have enough experience. As I watched Obsidian and their updates, as they put their little dungeon together all on time and with proper looks and presentation I realised what it means to have experience and being professional about making games. I'd happily dive in PoE just because it looks like what was promised... but I don't want people to think that's because I'm just and IE fanboy.

In my head W2 has a party and some good hired writers, while AoD has AIMED HITS FFS and starts with cool unique vignettes for every character and big hub full of quests. But that's all the big difference for now, as I judged by various beta's. I don't see what VD should be jealous about.
I wait both of them with equal interest, meaning I have no particular preference to either an indie or overhyped nostalgia driven publishers suck W2.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The key word being "should". However, in practice, people will respond with more respect to a ten page review with a stamp of "official" on it, than they will to somebody's comment about how "RPGs take 18 months because Tim Cain said that ten years ago".

My position was:

- it has never been done (which doesn't mean that it can't be done but requires some kind of plan explaining how exactly such a feat would be accomplished)
- all quality RPGs took 3 years or longer
- Fargo's two previous titles took over two years and were fairly mediocre (i.e. a higher quality game would take a lot more time)
- Tim Cain's quote that sums it all up.

You threw the first 3 points away and focused on the last. I did find your follow up tags - "Fargo says he's on schedule!" - highly amusing though.

And, since my arguments with you back in 2012 seem to be the unspoken subtext of this little argument...

Not at all.

 

[Infinitron]

My position was:

- it has never been done (which doesn't mean that it can't be done but requires some kind of plan explaining how exactly such a feat would be accomplished)
- all quality RPGs took 3 years or longer
- Fargo's two previous titles took over two years and were fairly mediocre (i.e. a higher quality game would take a lot more time)
- Tim Cain's quote that sums it all up.

Well, you're about to see one done in less than two and a half (note: I am not talking about Wasteland 2).

And that's the end of this discussion.

Perhaps the highlight was helping the upside down turtle.

Speaking of the turtle: https://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5835&start=20#p114684

No two playthroughs alike?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, you're about to see one done in less than two and a half (note: I am not talking about Wasteland 2).

Project Eternity? Honestly, I'm terrified because I have huge hopes for it. Still, it will be a good test of what's possible and what isn't and an interesting comparison with WL2.

 

[Darkzone]

PoE could be technically good, but also with bland fantasy, with simple quests and with zero reactivity compared to W2. That is my fear. So also PoE quality could be more a matter of opinion.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

We know that Obsidian is more than capable of delivering an interesting world, memorable companions, and mature thematic exploration. They are also pretty good at releasing slam dunks and promising but unfinished games. So, if PE is BG/IWD/PST, the question is what are the exact proportions. 50 IWD/50 PST is one thing, 90 IWD2/10 PST is another.

 

[SuicideBunny]

3 IWD/3 PST/54 actual effort/40 slam-dunk

 

[Grotesque]

Well, you're about to see one done in less than two and a half (note: I am not talking about Wasteland 2).

Project Eternity? Honestly, I'm terrified because I have huge hopes for it. Still, it will be a good test of what's possible and what isn't and an interesting comparison with WL2.

If we're about to see one done in less than two and a half is because Josh makes his dream game which he envisioned in his head for years and I can bet that all the details, the world, its background and game mechanic specifics were all laid out way before the kickstarter project. That's why the speed at which the game was fleshed out. And because of that I think it was gained much development time.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, you're about to see one done in less than two and a half (note: I am not talking about Wasteland 2).

Project Eternity? Honestly, I'm terrified because I have huge hopes for it. Still, it will be a good test of what's possible and what isn't and an interesting comparison with WL2.

If we're about to see one done in less than two and a half is because Josh makes his dream game which he envisioned in his head for years and I can bet that all the details, the world, its background and game mechanic specifics were all laid out way before the kickstarter project. That's why the speed at which the game was fleshed out and because of that I think close to a year was gained.

I don't think it works this way. Knowing what you're doing helps a lot and that's the biggest difference between PE and WL2, but it still takes time to do it right, to experiment, to develop concepts further.

I'm not a big fan of RTwP, so mainly I'm looking forward to the non-combat aspects: world, characters, story, dialogues, role-playing. They are the ones that would require the most time to mature.

 

[Zombra]

Maybe I'm just a jerk, but I would read the Infinitron vs. Felipepepe "crossfire" review.

 

[Darkzone]

So, if PE is BG/IWD/PST, the question is what are the exact proportions. 50 IWD/50 PST is one thing, 90 IWD2/10 PST is another.

Yes. The right proportions could make PoE good, but the wrong proportions result in the opposite. We all shall see the result. Still i have this bad feeling, but i hope that my feeling will be proven wrong.
Question: Why this Rom look?