Wasteland The Wasteland 2 Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Kem0sabe]

How does one drive the bullies away from tormenting the captured indian at highpool?

 

[Daedalos]

The real problem is, that peoples perceptions of what a beta is and how it's defined have clearly changed over the years.

Nowadays, people expect most betas to almost be complete games in most regards, and boy if it contains bugs, missing stuff and so, people get quite angry..

A beta is supposed to be a pretty rough draft, yes more polished than an alpha, but still.. pretty rough.. especially a kickstarter one, with low staff and not a time-consuming Q&A.. (that's us)


Meh.. It's like... people don't wanna help find bugs and test the game.. they just wanna play it, without any problems... well.. that's what the fucking full released game is for.. why are you even playing a beta in the first place, if you can't stand shit crashing, not working or not implemented yet at all?

Everything still subject to change at this point, right?

 

[Grunker]

So far the reaction to the game has pretty much been what I expected. People dreamed of a game with PST-like depth of story, JA2 combat, FO atmosphere and unprecedented amount of C&C (which might or might not be there, the first few hours of a game are usually a bad part to make a judgement unless you are making a CYOA-game like AoD). Surprise, people got disappointed.

yeah when people get hyped for insane reactivity it's clearly because they have unrealistic expectations and not because the development team's lead told them that was exactly what they were going to get

 

[Daedalos]

So far the reaction to the game has pretty much been what I expected. People dreamed of a game with PST-like depth of story, JA2 combat, FO atmosphere and unprecedented amount of C&C (which might or might not be there, the first few hours of a game are usually a bad part to make a judgement unless you are making a CYOA-game like AoD). Surprise, people got disappointed.

yeah when people get hyped for insane reactivity it's clearly because they have unrealistic expectations and not because the development team's lead told them that was exactly what they were going to get

So you've seen the entire game? you've seen every planned quest and lore regarding reactivity and consequence-based storyline? You know exactly what will get implemented and what won't at this point?

Cool.

 

[Grunker]

can't comment on the beta because it isn't the full game

brilliant

 

[Sensuki]

Meh.. It's like... people don't wanna help find bugs and test the game.. they just wanna play it, without any problems... well.. that's what the fucking full released game is for.. why are you even playing a beta in the first place, if you can't stand shit crashing, not working or not implemented yet at all?

Who is fucking complaining about bugs? Most of the criticism has been about the DESIGN.

 

[Brother None]

How does one drive the bullies away from tormenting the captured indian at highpool?

Well, you can shoot 'em, heh.

Spoiler

Listen to their banter for a while. They'll mention something they want and getting it for them will get them to bugger off.

 

[Daedalos]

Meh.. It's like... people don't wanna help find bugs and test the game.. they just wanna play it, without any problems... well.. that's what the fucking full released game is for.. why are you even playing a beta in the first place, if you can't stand shit crashing, not working or not implemented yet at all?

Who is fucking complaining about bugs? Most of the criticism has been about the DESIGN.

Bugs, design, whatever.. everything can still be changed at this point. And I see a lot of people complaining about bugs actually too

 

[Rake]

So far the reaction to the game has pretty much been what I expected. People dreamed of a game with PST-like depth of story, JA2 combat, FO atmosphere and unprecedented amount of C&C (which might or might not be there, the first few hours of a game are usually a bad part to make a judgement unless you are making a CYOA-game like AoD). Surprise, people got disappointed.

yeah when people get hyped for insane reactivity it's clearly because they have unrealistic expectations and not because the development team's lead told them that was exactly what they were going to get

To be fair if you believe what the development team leader says to hype his game, you HAVE unrealistic expectations

 

[Infinitron]

In general, I am not too impressed by the disappointment about reactivity in this thread because I'm pretty sure a Fallout demo consisting of Rat Cave + Shady Sands + Vault 15 + Raider Camp would have gotten a similar reception.

 

[Grunker]

Meh.. It's like... people don't wanna help find bugs and test the game.. they just wanna play it, without any problems... well.. that's what the fucking full released game is for.. why are you even playing a beta in the first place, if you can't stand shit crashing, not working or not implemented yet at all?

Who is fucking complaining about bugs? Most of the criticism has been about the DESIGN.

Bugs, design, whatever.. everything can still be changed at this point. And I see a lot of people complaining about bugs actually too

why the fuck should they do a beta test if not to get feedback on bugs and design, jesus

In general, I am not too impressed by the disappointment about reactivity in this thread because I'm pretty sure a Fallout demo consisting of Rat Cave + Shady Sands + Vault 15 + Raider Camp would have gotten a similar reception.

i agree, the gameplay is clearly the most crucially "fucked" part at this point - i reacted to the specific statement, not the overall points on reactivity

So far the reaction to the game has pretty much been what I expected. People dreamed of a game with PST-like depth of story, JA2 combat, FO atmosphere and unprecedented amount of C&C (which might or might not be there, the first few hours of a game are usually a bad part to make a judgement unless you are making a CYOA-game like AoD). Surprise, people got disappointed.

yeah when people get hyped for insane reactivity it's clearly because they have unrealistic expectations and not because the development team's lead told them that was exactly what they were going to get

To be fair if you believe what the development team leader says to hype his game, you HAVE unrealistic expectations

there's a difference between believing in everything he says and holding him accountable to promises made on the central core aspect of the game

 

[Sensuki]

I only said I haven't really seen much C&C yet - but I went Ag Center. And I'm still there so.

 

[skuphundaku]

OK bros, finally got around to submitting my feedback to WL2's bug tracker.

First, let's start with what I liked from what I've seen up until now:
1. I like the keyword dialog system
2. The frog battle was a nice touch, especially the part where it swallows one of your character's weapon. It would be cool if that would be something like a critical, so that there is a chance of it happening more than once in the fight. It would also be cool if, if the frog swallowed a bladed weapon, it would get some damage from it each round.
3. Nice to be able to save and load everywhere. Fuck the losers even thinking that checkpoints would be better
4. I like the camera, but it could be improved by unlinking the pitch adjustment from the zoom adjustment. That would make it perfect.


Now, on to my list of submitted bugs and feature requests:


Bugs:

1. Mouse cursor is framerate-dependent
Mouse cursor is framerate-dependent. Given that WL2 is turn based, low framerates should't impact one's ability to play the game. However, a sluggish cursor does. If the cursor weren't framerate-dependent, then this would mean an increase in playability, especially for people with slower machines.

2. Weapon info box hides to default position
If one uses the interface customisation feature and changes the place of the weapon info box, when you hide the box, instead of hiding in the newly assigned position, it moves back to its default position and hides there. Moreover, when making it visible again, it stays in the default position.

3. First letter of typed keyword is missing
When typing keywords in a conversation, the first typed letter is always missing.

4. Enemies shooting through walls (at least in Highpool)
Enemies (at least in Highpool) seem to be able to shoot through walls. I doubt that there's some nifty ballistics simulation involved (although that would be sweet), so I think this is something that needs fixing.

5. Highpool saves broken
All the saves made after the battle at the mortar in Highpool can't be loaded.


Feature requests:

1. usage of ENTER and ESC in the interface
One can use the ENTER and ESC keys in some instances in the GUI, but they are not consistently usable. It would be very useful if the ENTER key would be consistently usable for dialog box confirmations (all the OK buttons should be "clickable" by pressing the ENTER key) and the ESC key for dialog box cancellations (all the Cancel buttons should be "clickable" by pressing the ESC key).

2. Remove on-location health regeneration
Health regeneration while on-location should be removed. No matter how slow it is, it undermines the whole gameplay system related to healing. Haling items and the Fieldmedic skill can be functionally replaced by waiting around for your characters to heal.

Gameplay (encounters and loot) should be balanced for no health regeneration as well.

3. Rethink the whole World Map system
The way the World Map works right now is unnecessarily convoluted. First, there are, basically, there are 2 World Maps:
1. the drawn one, which has all the known locations marked (let's call it LOCATION MAP)
2. the 3D rendered one, which is used for the actual exploration (let's call it EXPLORATION MAP)

The problems are:
1. First and foremost: why are there 2 World Maps? What's the point of it? As Fallout 1&2 (and many other RPGs, but FO1&2 are the best exaple) showed us, you can do it by having a single world map. The duplication of this system is superfluous and could become even confusing for some players
2. The LOCATION MAP has a really cheap look, If you merge the two maps and keep this one, or tend towards something closer to this one, you have to make it look better and add more detail and information to it. I'm sorry to reference FO1&2 again, but that's what you should use as a reference
3. The EXPLORATION MAP is rather clunky. If you merge the two maps and keep this one, or tend towards something closer to this one, you have to make it smoother. The biggest problem is the camera: it's too zoomed in. Either give the camera a higher viewpoint, or, better, give the user the ability to zoom in and out. Zooming in and out should be done centred on the cursor, something like the zooming in and out from Supreme Commander/Planetary Annihilation.

4. Location Map
Right now, there is just the tiny minimap, which is quite inadequate. I suggest adding a Current Location Map that can be viewed at all times, and, maybe, even have support for user-generated flags/tags.

5. Using inventory during combat
Right now, using the inventory during combat has no AP cost. Worse than that, Moving items between characters during combat costs nothing. This shouldn't be the case.

First, using the inventory during combat should have an AP cost. Maybe the APs should be subtracted from the character only if its equipment changes or an item is used straight from the inventory, so that the player isn't dissuaded from just looking around when creating a strategy.

Second, moving items form one character's inventory to another one's should have some cost attached. There should be either an AP cost, some restriction like the two characters being close to each other or both.

6. Camera should be fully adjustable
Camera should be fully adjustable, like in Neverwinter Nights 2 or Age of Decadence. The way it is now, it's a bad compromise between a fixed camera and a fully adjustable one, so I advocate from making it fully adjustable. Now, the yaw is adjustable and the pitch is linked to the zoom level. Because of this, sometimes one has problems adjusting it properly, such as during the fight in Highpool, at the base of the dam, where the 2 snipers are, after the mortar fight. In that place, you are forced to either have a too high vantage point and see everything or zoom in and lack the ability to see the entire battlefield. This could be easily fixable by unlinking the pitch adjustment from the soom level adjustment. Once the player can adjust both the pitch, the yaw and the zoom freely, then problems like that can be avoided.

From the point of view of the interface complexity, there would be almost no complexity added by doing the pitch adjustment by dragging while holding down the middle mouse button, just like in the case of the yaw adjustment.

7. Inventory ammo slots
I think this is a bad idea with little to no benefit. Why not just use the appropriate ammo straight from the inventory? If you are planning for multiple ammo types for the same cartridge (i.e. birdshot/buckshot/slugs for smoothbores, armor piercing/ball/hollow point(/incendiary) for rifled guns), then you could change that GUI element so that it holds just the ammo type, not ammo itself (i.e not an actual round count).

Conversely, you could add the ammo type as a type of attack for the currently held gun, depending on the ammo types present in the respective character's inventory.

8. Melee accuracy
Give an accuracy bonus to melee characters when performing attacks on ranged characters. That would be quite realistic because ranged characters, when engaged at close range, are less equipped (physically and mentally) to block/dodge a melee attack.

9. Damage variation with range
The damage ranged characters inflict should vary with the range from which they engage their enemies.

In the case of shotguns, as the range increases, more and more shot will start missing the target (unless slugs are used, in that case, see rifles), so the damage needs to go down with range.

In the case of rifles, you have the issue of terminal ballistics. Depending on the type of ammo, a bullet from a rifle at shorter ranges should fragment and do more damage, while at longer range, because it has lost energy, it may not fragment at all and go through-and-through and do little damage. If you plan to implement different types of ammo (armor piercing/ball/hollow point), you'll have to take that into account too. In the case of armor piercing ammo, an armor piercing bullet could go through multiple targets and cover, depending on body armor/cover, and each previous hit would decrease the damage of the subsequent hit.

Also, what seems to me rather broken right now is that the shotgun is almost as accurate as the rifle at longer ranges. That shouldn't be so.

 

[dunno lah]

I think Inxile aren't capable of implementing all of skuphundaku's awesome, albeit expected suggestions.

 

[Sensuki]

OK bros, finally got around to submitting my feedback to WL2's bug tracker.
Bugs:

1. Mouse cursor is framerate-dependent
Mouse cursor is framerate-dependent. Given that WL2 is turn based, low framerates should't impact one's ability to play the game. However, a sluggish cursor does. If the cursor weren't framerate-dependent, then this would mean an increase in playability, especially for people with slower machines.

This can be fixed if they change the input method to WM_INPUT (Raw Input) instead of WM_MOUSEMOVE

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms645590(v=vs.85).aspx

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee418864(v=vs.85).aspx

 

[Brother None]

@skuphundaku

 

[Sensuki]

OK bros, finally got around to submitting my feedback to WL2's bug tracker.
6. Camera should be fully adjustable
Camera should be fully adjustable, like in Neverwinter Nights 2 or Age of Decadence. The way it is now, it's a bad compromise between a fixed camera and a fully adjustable one, so I advocate from making it fully adjustable. Now, the yaw is adjustable and the pitch is linked to the zoom level. Because of this, sometimes one has problems adjusting it properly, such as during the fight in Highpool, at the base of the dam, where the 2 snipers are, after the mortar fight. In that place, you are forced to either have a too high vantage point and see everything or zoom in and lack the ability to see the entire battlefield. This could be easily fixable by unlinking the pitch adjustment from the soom level adjustment. Once the player can adjust both the pitch, the yaw and the zoom freely, then problems like that can be avoided.

I suggested pretty much the same thing in my suggestion on center code except I said that the rotation should be free-form left and right up and down. You can have that and zoom for way better camera control. IMO RMB would be the best button for this, but if for some weird (and annoying) reason inXile want to keep the two button split design which I don't like then mouse3 (current button) would work I guess.

 

[skuphundaku]

OK bros, finally got around to submitting my feedback to WL2's bug tracker.
6. Camera should be fully adjustable
Camera should be fully adjustable, like in Neverwinter Nights 2 or Age of Decadence. The way it is now, it's a bad compromise between a fixed camera and a fully adjustable one, so I advocate from making it fully adjustable. Now, the yaw is adjustable and the pitch is linked to the zoom level. Because of this, sometimes one has problems adjusting it properly, such as during the fight in Highpool, at the base of the dam, where the 2 snipers are, after the mortar fight. In that place, you are forced to either have a too high vantage point and see everything or zoom in and lack the ability to see the entire battlefield. This could be easily fixable by unlinking the pitch adjustment from the soom level adjustment. Once the player can adjust both the pitch, the yaw and the zoom freely, then problems like that can be avoided.

I suggested pretty much the same thing in my suggestion on center code except I said that the rotation should be free-form left and right up and down. You can have that and zoom for way better camera control. IMO RMB would be the best button for this, but if for some weird (and annoying) reason inXile want to keep the two button split design which I don't like then mouse3 (current button) would work I guess.

I suggested MMB instead of RMB because that way it would be the easiest for them to add full camera control without having to rethink their whole mouse interface.

 

[Sensuki]

It would be easier, but I'd prefer if they would rethink it because I think it's clunky.

 

[felipepepe]

Brother None , you guys have any estimate on a patch? I want to keep playing, kill those robots down south and all that, but the save bugs kill any motivation...

 

[Brother None]

Not that I know of, no, sorry. Saving bugs, optimization and the agcenter crash seem to be the most common blocker problems which means they're all high-priority for us, but I don't have any visibility on when we can get stable fixes out (fixes for major things always have to be extensively tested internally before going out, after all).

 

[skuphundaku]

Brother None , you guys have any estimate on a patch? I want to keep playing, kill those robots down south and all that, but the save bugs kill any motivation...

Yeah, the save bug is the closest thing to a showstopper in this beta there is.

edit: forgot about the CTD at the end of the Ag Center... this one sucks quite bad too.

 

[skuphundaku]

Not that I know of, no, sorry. Saving bugs, optimization and the agcenter crash seem to be the most common blocker problems which means they're all high-priority for us, but I don't have any visibility on when we can get stable fixes out (fixes for major things always have to be extensively tested internally before going out, after all).

I think that optimizations, in general, shouldn't be that far up the list of priorities in an early beta. If the framerate-dependent cursor issue is solved, most people will be able to easily live with a lower framerate. Solving the save and the CTD issues are the most important things right now IMHO.

 

[felipepepe]

Nah, optimization is needed... my brother has a i5 laptop with 6Gb RAM and a 1GB AMD video card, and yet can't run the game even on the lowest setting... it lags so much it's unplayable. Pretty sure that many backers and testers are having the same problem.

 

[Sensuki]

I submitted my proposed solution to the problem ... just a matter of when/if they get around to reading it