Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[Darth Roxor]

this fucking hall of the past is so goddamn anal

 

[Darth Roxor]

and now im in some kind of bizarre reverse-space hulk where i am the genestealers that crawl around a maze and keep getting swatted down by suspiciously-space marine terminator-looking mega-bots that are immune to everything and keep murdering me with plasma cannon spam

how very fun

 

[Darth Roxor]

aaaaaaaaand back to new city to get a thingamabob from vi

FUCKING HELL GAME I JUST WANT TO BE DONE WITH YOU ALREADY

 

[cvv]

Lol, finishing the game at the same time. Space robots get vaporized with my Light Sabre plus by this point you should be around lvl 27+ and therefore relatively safe from the robots (they're only lvl 24).

Btw finished the game siding with the Umpani. I've never tried the Umpani start in W8, looking fwd to it.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

aaaaaaaaand back to new city to get a thingamabob from vi

FUCKING HELL GAME I JUST WANT TO BE DONE WITH YOU ALREADY

...Should we tell him?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Lol, finishing the game at the same time. Space robots get vaporized with my Light Sabre plus by this point you should be around lvl 27+ and therefore relatively safe from the robots (they're only lvl 24).

it was only mega-bots that were giving me trubble and only until i discovered that ice shield stops plasma cannon damage (lolfuckingwhat)

also ur going thru this p fast

but i guess it only makes sense

...Should we tell him?

nice try, im behind 5 walkthroughs

after i read that you need to use the MYSTERY RAY on a fucking random-ass disabled android to get the 2nd code frequency to free vi (i dont think i would have ever figured this out myself) i just decided to follow the walkthrough all the way to the end to spare myself further raeg so i know what bullshit i must still fetch that i have not yet fetched

 

[Lady_Error]

Lol, finishing the game at the same time. Space robots get vaporized with my Light Sabre plus by this point you should be around lvl 27+ and therefore relatively safe from the robots (they're only lvl 24).

I think I was only Level 22 or 23 when I finished it. It was more important to increase my stats with the Ankhs from Sky City and the robots weren't a problem for the most part.

 

[TigerKnee]

The conversation system and NPC interaction in Wiz7 is just horrid. The only thing any NPC says outside of a very few specific quests is if you ask them about a specific faction they will say if they like/dislike them. That's it. Compare that to Wiz8 where everyone yammers on about all sorts of things. Everyone in Arnika has all kinds of tidbits of information for the player to follow up on. This isn't even a new idea, older games like the freaking Ultimas or The Magic Candle had way better dialogue/clue systems.

Finally. I thought I was the only person who thought the conversation systems in 6/7 was pretty half-baked

 

[cvv]

I think I was only Level 22 or 23 when I finished it.

Whaa? I was just blasting through this time around (without grinding the Greater Wilds or the Piranhas or the late game dungeons) AND I did an all around class change at lvl 10. And I still finished at lvl 29/30, with all the elite classes like Monks and Ninjas. I did all the areas tho, didn't skip anything.

Btw the automap mod by Kori Tama is the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to this game in the last 20 years, made me go 30% faster.

The conversation system and NPC interaction in Wiz7 is just horrid.

Dude...Wiz7 offered a VAST range of interaction options for 1992 standards. Not only you could talk to almost any NPC, you had a gazillion different things you can do - trade, lore, truce, bribe etc. It was absolutely revolutionary. It was cosmic miles ahead of the rest of the genre (at least I don't know of any games with richer NPC interactions). Sure you have to type shit in but remember, in 1992 a mouse was a brand new gadget.

Yeah, despite all that NPCs could've be a bit more talkative and give you more hints/clues about what's going on. But that goes to my suspicions oid Wizardries were intentionally obtuse as fuck to render your playthrough without a guide a pointless exercise in frustration so you eventually give up and buy the cluebook or call the paid help line.

 

[Grauken]

I think he means specifically only the conversations, not the rest. I don't think Wiz6/7 implementations of a keyword system was vastly different than either Ultima or the Magic Candle's one, it's just that those depended a lot more on excessive world-building, than Wizardry has ever, which means there wasn't as much to talk about (background lore)

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Dude...Wiz7 offered a VAST range of interaction options for 1992 standards. Not only you could talk to almost any NPC, you had a gazillion different things you can do - trade, lore, truce, bribe etc. It was absolutely revolutionary. It was cosmic miles ahead of the rest of the genre (at least I don't know of any games with richer NPC interactions). Sure you have to type shit in but remember, in 1992 a mouse was a brand new gadget.

Ultima 6 came out 2 years before Wiz 7, and its NPCs are approximately 100 billion times more interesting, immersive, and relevant to the fucking game than Wiz7's map locator bots.

Plus there's nothing in any other game as annoying as:

"...you hear a horrible wailing."

"...It's coming closer."

"...It's brother T'Shober!"

*Horrible music plays*

*17 more lines of unskippable text plays*

LOL D.W. Bradley is SO FUNNY guys!

Wiz7's NPC ideas may have been slightly novel in their implementation, but maybe the reason no one designs NPCs like this before or since is because they were bad ideas.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

"...It's brother T'Shober!"

*Horrible music plays*

EDIT : I wanted the linked video to start at said horrible music (37 seconds in) but couldn't figure out how to do it. Could someone enlighten me on the right procedure ?

 

[Iznaliu]

But that goes to my suspicions oid Wizardries were intentionally obtuse as fuck to render your playthrough without a guide a pointless exercise in frustration so you eventually give up and buy the cluebook or call the paid help line.

The text adventure method, I see.

 

[YES!]

Dude...Wiz7 offered a VAST range of interaction options for 1992 standards. Not only you could talk to almost any NPC, you had a gazillion different things you can do - trade, lore, truce, bribe etc. It was absolutely revolutionary. It was cosmic miles ahead of the rest of the genre (at least I don't know of any games with richer NPC interactions). Sure you have to type shit in but remember, in 1992 a mouse was a brand new gadget.

Ultima 6 came out 2 years before Wiz 7, and its NPCs are approximately 100 billion times more interesting, immersive, and relevant to the fucking game than Wiz7's map locator bots.

Plus there's nothing in any other game as annoying as:

"...you hear a horrible wailing."

"...It's coming closer."

"...It's brother T'Shober!"

*Horrible music plays*

*17 more lines of unskippable text plays*

LOL D.W. Bradley is SO FUNNY guys!

Wiz7's NPC ideas may have been slightly novel in their implementation, but maybe the reason no one designs NPCs like this before or since is because they were bad ideas.

QfG 1 came out a year or two before U6 and had way better npc interaction and npcs than U6. And the controls and UI in u6 versus Wiz7 clearly checkmate mate your U6 example (even with nuvie). Also, u6 had 3 stats and barely any chardev and no chargen besides some stupid questions at a gypsy. The ultima games ARE the start of the story-narrative, barely any rpg elements jrpgs, just like wizarardy started the wiz clones. Jrpgs could be called Ultima clones.

 

[Lady_Error]

"...It's brother T'Shober!"

*Horrible music plays*

EDIT : I wanted the linked video to start at said horrible music (37 seconds in) but couldn't figure out how to do it. Could someone enlighten me on the right procedure ?

Under the video, click on share and then click on the box that says "start at" and the time.

 

[cvv]

Ultima 6 came out 2 years before Wiz 7, and its NPCs are approximately 100 billion times more interesting, immersive, and relevant to the fucking game than Wiz7's map locator bots.

Plus there's nothing in any other game as annoying as:

"...you hear a horrible wailing."

"...It's coming closer."

"...It's brother T'Shober!"

*Horrible music plays*

*17 more lines of unskippable text plays*

LOL D.W. Bradley is SO FUNNY guys!

Wiz7's NPC ideas may have been slightly novel in their implementation, but maybe the reason no one designs NPCs like this before or since is because they were bad ideas.

First of all, nobody sane plays the game with the audio on if they want to keep their sanity. It slows the game down and also, well, they're 1992 sounds. And the battle fanfare repetition would drive you to a school shooting after a while. That said - anyone trying to claim any part of Steve Miller's epic Wiz7 soundtrack is horrible automatically removes himself from the adult conversation. The music itself is legendary tier, notwithstanding the repetition and technical limitations.

And second, I've never really played Ultima 6. Or any Ultimas before and after. And not for lack of trying. You're right, the NPC interactions were done better, now I vaguely remember. But almost everything else about the games always felt terribly banal bland boring to me.

I tried to get into U7, supposedly the best one, unsuccessfully many times and I think I know what's so offputting for me - Ultimas are much more focused on the "story" and game world interactions instead of exploration, character development and combat (which has always been Wizardry focus). The problem is that story, dialogues, characters etc. are shit in Ultima VII. It's also shit in all the other Ultimas and in Wizardry 7 and all the other Wizardries and basically every single RPG except PST (any maybe Mass Effect 1 and the Witchers). Ninety nine percent of RPGs from the dawn of man up until now had idiotic, infantile story and characters that would be a complete embarrassment for the creators if they came out in a novel or a movie.

So if you try to make a game focused more on NPCs and story and less on combat/exploration/chardev, you're bound to fail. I chalk up most of the lasting popularity of Ultimas to nostalgia. People played it back in the day and thought the story was good because it was good for the cRPG standards. But measured by all the other standards it's bad fanfiction tier at best. But if you instead try to make a combat/exploration heavy game, not focusing too much on fleshing out the world lore and characters, you can make a masterpiece. Even though a few people will then trash it on forums for not having good characters.

 

[Grauken]

Or lack of fully voiced characters, never forget how important that is to some people

 

[Covenant]

Or lack of fully voiced characters, never forget how important that is to some people

Normally I couldn't give a shit either way about voice acting (although every time I replay PS:T I wince when Sheena Easton starts her Wee Jimmy Krankie routine) but I really liked the narration in Wizardry Gold. Don't really recall the NPCs' voices (I think the Umpani General had some kind of Southern colonel thing going on?) but the narrator, cheesy as he was, really drew me into the world as a young kid. It had a sense of gravitas to it.

Still salty that I couldn't get my old Gold CD working on Windows 7. Spent hours working at it and even managed to fix the 'Text scrolls by too quickly bug', but it'd invariably crash in the first few combats.

 

[Grauken]

For most games I shut down music and voice completely and just put in my own music, only thing I leave is sound effects

I never tried to W7gold, the art direction was abominable

 

[Lady_Error]

Whoever decided to take out some of the best character portraits ever made and replace them with anime faggotry deserves to be [redacted].

 

[cvv]

Goddamn it, started a playthrough with Achebur's mod but ran into the Vi Domina bug. Apparently if you release someone in Arnika before saving her she'll disappear forever. And of course all my saves are either too old or too new. Is there a workaround? Have I just borked my game or she isn't an essential character? Can't remember anymore.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Under the video, click on share and then click on the box that says "start at" and the time.

Thank you milady.

 

[octavius]

cvv, to me the best things about the Ultima games (4-6) was just exploring and piecing all the things together by talking to NPCs and finding items, shrines and altars etc.
With combat (except for U5) and character development being so weak, the Ultima games are like anti-Wizardries.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

First of all, nobody sane plays the game with the audio on if they want to keep their sanity. It slows the game down and also, well, they're 1992 sounds. And the battle fanfare repetition would drive you to a school shooting after a while. That said - anyone trying to claim any part of Steve Miller's epic Wiz7 soundtrack is horrible automatically removes himself from the adult conversation. The music itself is legendary tier, notwithstanding the repetition and technical limitations.

And second, I've never really played Ultima 6. Or any Ultimas before and after. And not for lack of trying. You're right, the NPC interactions were done better, now I vaguely remember. But almost everything else about the games always felt terribly banal bland boring to me.

I tried to get into U7, supposedly the best one, unsuccessfully many times and I think I know what's so offputting for me - Ultimas are much more focused on the "story" and game world interactions instead of exploration, character development and combat (which has always been Wizardry focus). The problem is that story, dialogues, characters etc. are shit in Ultima VII. It's also shit in all the other Ultimas and in Wizardry 7 and all the other Wizardries and basically every single RPG except PST (any maybe Mass Effect 1 and the Witchers). Ninety nine percent of RPGs from the dawn of man up until now had idiotic, infantile story and characters that would be a complete embarrassment for the creators if they came out in a novel or a movie.

So if you try to make a game focused more on NPCs and story and less on combat/exploration/chardev, you're bound to fail. I chalk up most of the lasting popularity of Ultimas to nostalgia. People played it back in the day and thought the story was good because it was good for the cRPG standards. But measured by all the other standards it's bad fanfiction tier at best. But if you instead try to make a combat/exploration heavy game, not focusing too much on fleshing out the world lore and characters, you can make a masterpiece. Even though a few people will then trash it on forums for not having good characters.

I really was just making a comparison between NPC interaction methods, to refute the idea that Wiz7 was some kind of big innovation. No argument that they're different styles of games with different goals and features. I'm not going to deny that Wiz7 has better combat than any Ultima game, period.

There is however this argument I see a lot on the Codex, that seems to go like this:


Person A: "[Game] has bad [story/music/quests/whatever]."

Person B: "ALL RPGS have bad [story/music/quests/whatever], therefore your complaint is invalid."


I have four points:

1. This argument is a non-sequitur. If all food is toxic waste, complaining about your food being toxic waste is still valid.

2. I don't judge games based on what I want them to be, I judge them based on what they're trying to be. Wizardry 1 had little to no plot, but it didn't pretend like it did. That's fine.

3. D.W. Bradley games are clearly trying to be plot-focused.

4. D.W. Bradley's plots are terrible.

Whether you like the Ultima stories or not, most of the games' narratives are simply better-structured and more logically designed than anything made by D.W. Bradley. Bradley just throws a bunch of random junk and whimsy together. Just because he can't make a game with logical plot and characters doesn't mean all RPGs are bad at storytelling.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Goddamn it, started a playthrough with Achebur's mod but ran into the Vi Domina bug. Apparently if you release someone in Arnika before saving her she'll disappear forever. And of course all my saves are either too old or too new. Is there a workaround? Have I just borked my game or she isn't an essential character? Can't remember anymore.

She's not.