Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[octavius]

Sure, but it's part of the larger trend in RPGs to move away from resource-management challenges and focusing more on character building or combat tactics. In the older Wizardries the battles are never that hard, it's a question of how many spells/hitpoints you're willing to spend on this encounter, how far you are from an exit, how long you need to go before retreating, etc.

Sorry but just no. This makes me think you haven't played that much Wizardry 1-3. Do you realize the number of instakill possibilities in those games?

He's correct as far as Wiz 1-2 is concerned, at least. It's a matter of playing cautiously and know when it's time to head back to base, just like Bard's Tale.
3 is different with the brutal start (partly due to stats being capped just below the bonus threshold), and is more similar to Wiz 6 in that regard.

 

[Leitz]

The later Wizardries focus on long hard battles a lot. These are only fun if you can save before them.

 

[Dorateen]

I enjoyed the persistent approach used by Demise: Ascension, which eliminated saving all together. There was a master backup file created upon exiting the game. Otherwise, all progress was saved instantaneously. If the characters got wiped out, the player had the choice to revive them at the morgue at the cost of losing all their gold. Or you could send other characters into the dungeon to rescue the fallen.

Rescue parties were a key part of early Wizardries.

 

[Leitz]

EDIT 2: OK I got it, I panicked a little, but now I could at last prove that slowing down the cycles on dosbox really works on the tumblers on doors. I just had to wait for all of them to be green and hit button. Weirdly that never worked before.

Old post:

Oh shit I'm stuck in Wizardry 6 at the very end. I think I found the only place in the whole game where you can really get stuck. I'm at point 6 on this map, between the CF ending and the 'other' ending. I went through the wall into this little room that leads to the door. The problem is, I can't pick the door because my skill is not high enough. But I also can't go back through the wall and I saved. Detect secret doesn't help. My last back-up save is pre-forest, and grinding the big spiders that come into the room here and there would take thousand hours to get my skullduggery as high....HAAALP!

1. I guess I could cheat me skullduggery points, but shit I don't want to cheat, any tips?

2. Can I just import the characters from here or will they be marked as non-finishers which I don't want?

Edit: Hm I guess I could change profession to mage on one charater and try to get a high knock-knock spell

 

[octavius]

You're at the end of the game, and you have neither a good thief nor a good mage?

Anyway, it's possible you can grind up a character by just spinning around for random encounters in the room you're in.

 

[Leitz]

You're at the end of the game, and you have neither a good thief nor a good mage?

Anyway, it's possible you can grind up a character by just spinning around for random encounters in the room you're in.

My ex-thief had something like 55 skullduggery and I never bothered to give more points to him because I could open everything until the very end. And I dodged the knock-knock spell. I guess it's a learning lesson for Wiz7 which I'm in now.

BTW this thread needs some serious discussion about the Wizardry nazis who always tell you what to do. You HAVE to take a fairie ninja. You have to take many female characters. You have to take object X to Wiz 8. I had a subpar bunch of male losers and still made it through (even though it's the second time and I still needed a little walkthrough help). The game is exactly so good because you have sooo much freedom. Use it!

 

[Darth Roxor]

You have to take object X to Wiz 8.

If you don't, it defeats half the purpose of going 6-8.

Also:

I dodged the knock-knock spell.

i have no idea how that can even be possible when i remember finding the spellbook like a dozen times or something

 

[aweigh]

I think the most impactful (read: regression in depth/acquiescence to casualization) that were detrimental to the integrity of the gameplay foundations of Wizardry were:

- being able to sleep anywhere, which then prompted the band-aids of...

- regenerating magic points...

- ...the removal of vancian casting in favor of a combination of mechanics that were not as fully thought through.

- while being able to save anywhere is "fine", in the context of Wiz 6-7 it did indeed clash with much of the fundamental appeal of Wizardry and exploration in general because...

- ...it is inarguable that one of the indelible hallmarks of Wizardry was the hybrid fusion of your game never actually ending in a failure state (there is no game over) but married with the inability to save-scum by simply forcing "save & quit" which, as was pointed out above, probably a "nigh perfect" way to have your cake and eat it too.

- the dismantling of the core class and character advancement by taking what classes could already do (usually married to their level) and then half-assedly disambiguate each class' core conceptualization into "Skills" which players are then forced to mindless pump every level by a small amount of points which in one fell swoop served to dilute a class strengths into unnecessary busywork and also enforce the notion of false-choice in their char-advancement.

(i.e. making a player have to decide whether to pump Axes or Swords, when a Fighter-type's core is their ability to excel with martial weaponry, and for a quick and easy specific example this means that instead of promoting better itemization for say, a Fighter character who can use any weapon or armor but is now restricted to what you put points into whereas previously a Fighter lived or died by what they were equipped with and their attributes and were always useful in a much more concise and elegant implementation that ironically had less "player input" and yet provided for more flexibility and player agency in party composition).

- an almost complete removal of all hard counters due to the simplifcation of the Wizardry spell(s) and spell-system due to the fact that spells now were (and felt!) less important and less powerful and were more generic catch-all options that were simultaenously diminished in "importance" and boosted in "tediousness" with the addition of...

- ...a completely superfluous and unnecessary addition of a "power level" degree to each casting of a spell which is immediately robbed of any nascent strategical importance when combined with the newly added regenerating MP and the (de)generation of spells via segregated elemental "schools" which...

- ...in exactly the same way as the new (false) "skills" served only to dilute the strengths of the most core strategical aspect in Wizardry combat which is and always will be its classic and dizzying array of spells.

Wiz 6 is a fine game but it doesn't hold a candle to Wiz 5, and this is something I don't think anyone can argue about. Wiz 5 even features better Bradley-puzzles than Wiz 6 or 7 to boot.

 

[octavius]

BTW this thread needs some serious discussion about the Wizardry nazis who always tell you what to do. You HAVE to take a fairie ninja. You have to take many female characters. You have to take object X to Wiz 8. I had a subpar bunch of male losers and still made it through (even though it's the second time and I still needed a little walkthrough help). The game is exactly so good because you have sooo much freedom. Use it!

I agree. The only must for me is to start with a Bard.
But it doesn't hurt to be prepared for all eventualities.

 

[aweigh]

Starting with a bard (in Wiz 6) is actually a great choice as, just like in Wiz 8, the ability to sleep enemy groups non-stop with their instrument (which never breaks, and will all-too-seen reach enough skill points to never miss) makes the beginning area of the ruined Castle much more enjoyable to fully explore and take in its great ambiance/atmosphere, as it is by far the best written area in the game and the most enjoyable one to conquer, as well as the best designed one.

the ruined Castle in the beginning of Wiz is meant to symbolize the beginning of a new adventure for the Wizardry player's band of adventurers that is steeped in the trappings of the old but bursting with, in my opinion, the best writing Bradley did for any area with not only a great organic design to the ruins/Castle itself and the way everything is expertly gated for the player without any type of hand-holding or misdirection and thus allows for actual exploration which will reward in legitimate progression, but in how it features the most subtle (for Bradley) bits of "lore" and writing as the player can slowly begin to discover what may have happened in this ruined Castle (or not!) and it features great foreshadowing in the way of the journal(s) the player can acquire which detail the mountain of the giants that will await the party later on.

EDIT: forgot to include "...in the trappings of the old but serving a direct message to the player that the Wizardry game play and philosophy were going to change dramatically, which is why the iron gate/grate locks loudly behind the adventuring party's backs as soon as they enter saying (from Bradley's mouth himself in interviews) that: the old is gone, and from here on out prepare for a completely different kind of game play that, putting aside the complete change-up in all of the core game mechanics, will also no attempt to move completely away from the exploration of castles, dungeons and anything reminiscent of the old scenarios".

it is then, (IMO), ironic (and I believe this is exactly the correct usage of the word) that the ruined Castle is Bradleys best designed area and is a complete joy to explore and conquer, somewhat giving the lie to the supposed need to move the series into science fiction and what-have-you.

I think the beginning of Wiz 6 is one of the strongest and most definitely a high-water mark for Bradley.

EDIT: I most definitely recommend classing that starting Bard into something else later on, not because the class is bad but rather because they're too good at what they do and are not balanced properly and while extremely helpful in the beginning(s) of the game (specifically in this context Wiz 6) later on it will simply mean you have 1 party member who will always, without any deviation in strategy, be doing the exact same thing (instrument spam) throughout the entire game.

I do not question their effectiveness but rather the detrimental effect the class will soon acquire for the Wizardry player as I cannot think of anything worse than having a char you bring along and always, without any thought, be selecting the same option in every single battle for every single encounter in the game.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

BTW this thread needs some serious discussion about the Wizardry nazis who always tell you what to do.

Ah I'm guilty of this, but in my defense my recommendations are objectively correct.

 

[aweigh]

what are your recommendations grampy_bone? thread is too long to sift through...

 

[aweigh]

i'm about to 5 mins away from reinstalling Wiz 6, hehe, thread has gotten me pumped to play through the game's 1st half again, and would like to hear them.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

what are your recommendations grampy_bone? thread is too long to sift through...

I was joking about being objectively correct, if that wasn't clear.

I mostly agreed with everyone else. Use a bard for the free lute, start all casters as a mage or priest for the SP regen, switch classes once or twice, get kirijutsu and ninjutsu on everyone, female characters can use good accessories down the line, grind near the fountains, best weapons in Wiz 6 are a lance, a 2-handed sword, and a katana; bringing them into Wiz 7 makes the game a lot easier, etc. etc.

I consider all this stuff just good advice from experienced players, things that can save you time and frustration when you're new to the game, not absolute commands on how you have to play the game.

I did say fairy ninja was overrated, and I also hated the plot of Wiz 7, but that's just an opinion.

 

[aweigh]

yeah basically that's about it. There not that much to be explored within the framework of party/class composition in Wiz 6-8, but Wiz 6 is the more robust of those 3 scenarios.

I dislike Wiz 7 due to the sci-fi terri-bad writing (but that's all skippable and whatnot so whatever); I dislike Wiz 7 because it lacks good areas to explore and it lacks good dungeons (with actual dungeoneering design) for the party to explore and conquer coupled with the fact that I found the forced "overland exploration" to be exceedingly tedious and monotone and that I found the many puzzles to be incredibly obtuse and a step down in design/logic from Bradley's puzzles found in Wiz 5 and Wiz 6.

Wiz 8 remains one of the all-time best RPGs I've ever played though, and I actually appreciate it more as time passes. (With the obvious caveat that I don't consider it "real Wizardry").

 

[octavius]

I don't consider it "real Wizardry").

aweigh is the blobber version of YES! /Roqua

 

[aweigh]

I am more than happy to be associated with one of the pinnacles of manhood that hail from the Codex. I can say without any hint of irony or sarcasm that Roqua is probably the most important Codexer to ever post as his legendary exchange with Bryce would eventually lead to the shaping of the entire Codexian Culture and, if you enjoy modern Codex, you can in large part thank Roqua.

I can't think of any Codexian incident that brings me more joy and a wider smile to my face than Roqua's PM to Bryce and in fact I would go so far as to say that remembering that amazing event in Codex History has saved me from suicide many-a-time as it immediately reminds me that a world in which Roqua PM'd Bryce and Bryce responded... is a world that is worth living in.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Well I think it's possible to differentiate between when someone is stating a general preference vs when they are making an informed statement of opinion.

For example I find this really insightful--

- the dismantling of the core class and character advancement by taking what classes could already do (usually married to their level) and then half-assedly disambiguate each class' core conceptualization into "Skills" which players are then forced to mindless pump every level by a small amount of points which in one fell swoop served to dilute a class strengths into unnecessary busywork and also enforce the notion of false-choice in their char-advancement.

(i.e. making a player have to decide whether to pump Axes or Swords, when a Fighter-type's core is their ability to excel with martial weaponry, and for a quick and easy specific example this means that instead of promoting better itemization for say, a Fighter character who can use any weapon or armor but is now restricted to what you put points into whereas previously a Fighter lived or died by what they were equipped with and their attributes and were always useful in a much more concise and elegant implementation that ironically had less "player input" and yet provided for more flexibility and player agency in party composition).

I was just thinking this the other day, while playing older RPGs, how they didn't try to make these needlessly granular "builds" for every class. When at the end of the day you pick a fighter or a cleric to fill a role, not do some kind of specialist Fifth Degree Black Belt Yo-Yo Master with the Yo-Yo Kensai prestige class.

I had this problem when I tried to play Starcrawlers, which provides all these different builds for every class. Yeah options are great and all, but it really muddies the waters of what each class's role in the party is supposed to be.

 

[Leitz]

I think the most impactful (read: regression in depth/acquiescence to casualization) that were detrimental to the integrity of the gameplay foundations of Wizardry were:

- being able to sleep anywhere, which then prompted the band-aids of...

- regenerating magic points...

- ...the removal of vancian casting in favor of a combination of mechanics that were not as fully thought through.

- while being able to save anywhere is "fine", in the context of Wiz 6-7 it did indeed clash with much of the fundamental appeal of Wizardry and exploration in general because...

- ...it is inarguable that one of the indelible hallmarks of Wizardry was the hybrid fusion of your game never actually ending in a failure state (there is no game over) but married with the inability to save-scum by simply forcing "save & quit" which, as was pointed out above, probably a "nigh perfect" way to have your cake and eat it too.

- the dismantling of the core class and character advancement by taking what classes could already do (usually married to their level) and then half-assedly disambiguate each class' core conceptualization into "Skills" which players are then forced to mindless pump every level by a small amount of points which in one fell swoop served to dilute a class strengths into unnecessary busywork and also enforce the notion of false-choice in their char-advancement.

(i.e. making a player have to decide whether to pump Axes or Swords, when a Fighter-type's core is their ability to excel with martial weaponry, and for a quick and easy specific example this means that instead of promoting better itemization for say, a Fighter character who can use any weapon or armor but is now restricted to what you put points into whereas previously a Fighter lived or died by what they were equipped with and their attributes and were always useful in a much more concise and elegant implementation that ironically had less "player input" and yet provided for more flexibility and player agency in party composition).

- an almost complete removal of all hard counters due to the simplifcation of the Wizardry spell(s) and spell-system due to the fact that spells now were (and felt!) less important and less powerful and were more generic catch-all options that were simultaenously diminished in "importance" and boosted in "tediousness" with the addition of...

- ...a completely superfluous and unnecessary addition of a "power level" degree to each casting of a spell which is immediately robbed of any nascent strategical importance when combined with the newly added regenerating MP and the (de)generation of spells via segregated elemental "schools" which...

- ...in exactly the same way as the new (false) "skills" served only to dilute the strengths of the most core strategical aspect in Wizardry combat which is and always will be its classic and dizzying array of spells.

Wiz 6 is a fine game but it doesn't hold a candle to Wiz 5, and this is something I don't think anyone can argue about. Wiz 5 even features better Bradley-puzzles than Wiz 6 or 7 to boot.

Jesus dude keep it short. ATM in Wiz 7 I realize how much the ONE SAVE becomes just another tactical variable like spells et cetera. If you save art the wrong moment you fuck up your game. You always have to think twice when you save.

I dislike Wiz 7 due to the sci-fi terri-bad writing (but that's all skippable and whatnot so whatever); I dislike Wiz 7 because it lacks good areas to explore and it lacks good dungeons (...)

I kinda agree, Wiz 7 feels like a giant but dull open world to endlessly work on your Party. Compared with the Alice in Wonderland that Wiz 6 throws you in it lacks creativity.

 

[Leitz]

I dodged the knock-knock spell.

i have no idea how that can even be possible when i remember finding the spellbook like a dozen times or something

I sold everything and ended up with a gianormous amount of useless gold. That's how you have to play RPGs.

 

[octavius]

ATM in Wiz 7 I realize how much the ONE SAVE becomes just another tactical variable like spells et cetera. If you save art the wrong moment you fuck up your game. You always have to think twice when you save.

Same with Wiz 6. My first playthrough was ruined halfway when I saved on a Fireball trap.

 

[aweigh]

(transplanted from a post I made in the Wiz Clones thread)

IMO one of classic Wizardry's greatest strengths that has stood the test of time is the fact that treasure chests appear after you defeat the enemy, but they are not tied to that enemy nor any enemy group; instead in Wizardry each dungeon floor has 3 different "tiers" (common / uncommon / rare) and those 3 tiers are meticulously hand-picked by the designers, such that there is no random loot in Wizardry, and then each dungeon floor is assigned 3 tiers of chests which will drop after battle.

The type of enemy fought has absolutely zero bearing on what tier of loot drops, or if a drop happens at all, as that happens only via "fixed encounters". Even though wizardry features random battles and random encounters the ingenious design of the first 5 scenarios and the later japanese-developed Wizardry games is that the treasure chests (loot) is gated by encounters that are not random, and these encounters can "farmed" via various ways (exiting and re-entering that dungeon floor being the most common), however they take care to place "fixed encounters" where appropriate and they always make sure that they matter beyond the fact that they drop chests.

Random encounters serve a different purpose (in earlier scenarios) where instead of dropping chests (although there is like a 0.2 % chance of them doing so in a few of the scenarios) instead the random encounters have a random chance to be "friendly" and this provides the player with the opportunity to choose to fight the enemies or to leave them in peace; an incredibly simple mechanic that functions as a way of keeping the character alignments (and thus party alignments) constantly fluid throughout the cours eof the entire game.

The fact that loot is tied to floors in Wizardry (and thus Elminage, and many other Wiz-clones) means that there will always be a valid reason for the player's band adventurers to continue exploring further deeper into the dungeon as the lure of danker loot (and more dangerous encounters, more difficult puzzles and more extravagant navigational challenges) will always be just one floor away.

Some people mistakenly think Wizardry and its clones utilize "random loot" but it absolutely does not, which is why I wanted to explain how the loot systems work, and also in the off chance you didn't know about it to give you food for thought as it's one of the most simple and elegant ways to design a naturally symbiotic itemization map of progression for the player and the game.

Games that allow every enemy to drop all that they were carrying, when not handled well (OBlivion, Skyrim, etc) will lead to haphazard itemization (being generous here) and when treasures are made as literal random drops from random encounters (Grimoire, StarCrawlerz, many more, etc) then it can easily lead to "yay, more random junk" syndrome for the player.

Itemization is one of the most difficult things to implement well in an RPG and I think studying how Wizardry 1-5 and Wiz Empire and Elminage series of games do it will most definitely serve as creative inspiration for anybody, as 30+ years onwards and there is still no other RPG that has managed to make a better skinner-box implementation than Wizardry and its legions of clones.

In addition I also think the simple mechanic of having to not only be able to defeat the enemy in order to (possibly) be able to get a chest, now the party has to inspect the chest for a trap and then disarm it (if they want to be careful... hehe)...

...and then identify the items. This very simple premise here provides a completely different and additional layer to the conflict resolution in Wizardry as the battles/encounters are no longer the focal point of the game's intentions nor the players attentions; instead the Wiz scenarios 1-5 and the later Wiz-clones provide a completely different type of conflict layer for the player's party of adventurers to face, and hopefully conquer that is completely different from that of the game's combat mechanics and combat engine.

It allows the player (via such extremely simple means) the opportunity to impart some "personality" to their journey through the dungeon mazes and labyrinths as each instance of this secondary layer of conflict resolution serves as a bite-sized yet consistent through-line towards emergent game play.

Yes, that modern buzz word was done in as long ago as Wiz scenario 1, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that through such a simple design and implementation, which obviously dovetails perfectly with their already established loot and tier systems and the fixed encounters, provides the opportunity to ask the player simple but important things:

• "Do you want to risk opening this chest even though you don't currently have a Thief/Ninja/Ranger available? ...Sure, there might be some good loot, but as you know this is Wizardry, and chests are more dangerous than enemies!"
• 
  
• "Oh fuck, you opened it and now 4 of your 6 party members are poisoned. You are 1 floor away from the stairs back to town, and you don't have any way of curing the poison because you're a low-level fuck. Each step you take on your way back to town and life drains hit points from your afflicted party members, and the worst part of it is: it costs a ton of money that you don't have to resurrect them!

And they might not even manage to come back to life to boot, because you decided your Wizard didn't need a good roll for his VITALITY attribute so guess what, he's about to become a fucking ghost yo. But fuck it, you opened the chest and you got the loot and it is good, now all that you have to do is motherfucking make it back to the stairs and manage to avoid/escape from the random encounters, take routes that don't have fixed encounters, and put on your thinking cap cos it's time to manage dem resources"

I truly cannot think of a simpler, more economical way for an RPG to give the player such a simple scenario, such a simple situation, but it is one comprised wholly by the player's choices and it allows enough room for the player, if he's lucky or smart or both, to larp his own personal victory by making it back to town with literally 2 hit points left, literally one more step and he would've died but fucking A, he made it to the fucking stairs.

What more can you really ask for? If that's not "emergent gameplay" then it doesn't exist. Add the myriad of other variables such as this hypothetical player actually being ready and prepared with either a thief/ninja/ranger or... you know what? What if he just got fucking lucky and opened the chest and evaded the trap! It's intelligent because... all of this dumb shit is tied intrinsically with Wizardry's systems, mechanics and layers of abstraction (classes, races, attributes, spells, etc).

After all, nobody forced him to try to get that loot. He could've just left the chest alone and continued onwards. This motherfucking dumb ass fucking simple little fucking skinner-box scenario, taken straight from any number of books on GAME THEORY (look it up, and no it's mostly about Casinos), is infinitely more compelling for a player's party of adventurers in regards to the concrete (life and death, baby) consequences!

Every single chest that drops in Wizardry is the equivalent of FNV's Dead Money DLC!

- aweigh











- Qwinn

 

[1000hrsinskyrim]

i'm about to 5 mins away from reinstalling Wiz 6, hehe, thread has gotten me pumped to play through the game's 1st half again, and would like to hear them.

idk if I'll ever touch wiz6 again, but I'd really like to try an ironman play through where you can only reload if everyone in your party dies. The game really gets you used to save scumming early on with by copy pasting one million locked doors everywhere, but since early mobs drop keys and you can open every lock in the game with either a key or knock-knock I don't think there's ever a point where you have to reload. You can even get through the castle just by bashing doors with a 17 or 18 str guy if you get knock-knock early on.

There's also some interesting patches in the cosmic forge editor like one that adds skill checks to bards, but I'm guessing it just makes them completely useless and you'd be better off in the early game with 2 mages or alchemists or anyone else that can spam sleep or blinding flash.

ANother thing to make the game more interesting is only using hide on classes that have it innately, since having your entire team learn hide is insanely tedious and breaks pretty much every encounter in the game. It also makes your blob of massively class changed tolkiens and furries slightly less homogeneous and makes rangers feel a better about themselves.

 

[1000hrsinskyrim]

Also with Wiz5 vs Wiz6 I agree for the most part, but mp regen is Wiz6 is so terrible that mana regenerating fountains basically fill in for the castle later in the game, so it's not like that was completely thrown out. Being able to sleep and save anywhere removes all the tension the old games had though, which is why iron man would be cool.

Also 6 massively reducing the encounter rate was great, but I'm a pitiful noob who played the old wizardries on nes and snes so I don't know if they changed things from the pc versions so japan could mash A more or what.

 

[aweigh]

The way Wizardry handles attributes is that they utilize exponential progression: below 15, a STR value will not provide any benefit whatsoever, and in fact if it is below 12 (might be 13 in some games) it will actually give a malus.

***(Wiz 1-5/Wiz Empire 1-3/Wiz Gaiden 1-6)

However, post-15 (16, 17, 18, 19, etc, with the maximum amount being determined by what race this character is) every additional +1 exponentially gives benefits.

They do the same with INT and PIETY: a Mage with 16 INT will have (i'm just spit balling a number here, as I'm not looking at any reference sheets right now) perhaps an additional 5% chance for his sleep spell to be effect, along with the amount of turns it is effective for...

...however a mage with 18 INT, only 2 points higher, will not have 15% extra, but rather much more. A mage with 20 INT (if i remember correctly would have to be an elf probably, or a devilish character in japanese Wiz scenarios) can be said to literally have TWICE the success rate, TWICE the damage output, etc, as a mage of the same race with only 17.

It seems like the gap isn't big, only 3 points, but each point is so unbelievably important that suddenly the fact that races determine the max amount their primary attributes can reach becomes... very important.

Of course then you have to make sure that it doesn't devolve into the player always choosing the same shit, i.e. going for this hypothetical elf mage every playthrough. That's bad design. The fact that each attribute matters so damn much also means that this hypothetical elf's low maximum of 15 VIT (compared to 20-22 max VIT on a Dwarf for example) means this elf mage will not only always gain very small amounts of hit points on every level up, but it also means he will be a high-risk character if killed because the resurrection spell/temple might not work on him.

This is a very quick-and-dirty example but that's how they did it, and while it's not necessarily the best approach it does lend itself to making the player begin to care deeply about weighing the pros and cons of each race's maximum attribute caps, and that in turn dovetails into classes, and party composition, and all that shit.

They didn't do the exponential progression on some stats, though, like AGILITY. That would be crazy because then a 20-22 AGI hobbit or whatever would always go first, and that would be bad. Agility, unlike STR and PIE (in early Wizardry 1-5 and the japanese Wizardry games, to be specific) give linear benefits.

Pillars of Eternity's approach is the complete opposite: obsidian made it so that every primary attribute affected something, and more to the point: multiple things. This kind of works but at the same time completely dilutes the importance of the overall attribute scheme and the player ends up not pondering the pros and cons but rather attempting to min/max as much as possible.

Min/Maxing is... not indicative of "good design", and while not to the extent of the degeneracy found in PoE's "builds", the absence of this simple yet very well thought-out and implemented scheme is strongly felt in later entries.