Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[Zboj Lamignat]

Insanity is often more likely to stick, true. Shame that the odds are it will do fuck all even when it does.

 

[Desiderius]

What? He has the entire psionic library.

Which is the most skippable school (literally ONE essential spell, cucked out of it hard by bard) that brings p. much nothing to the table for a hybrid, unless someone sees shift-q'ing for a single dice heal as value.

Insanity is one of the most useful spells in the game

Oh no, it's one of them insanity memers. It's overrated and unreliable, mass freeze just blows it out of the water. Plus, of course, cucked out of it early and hard by bard.

playing blind without Detect Secrets is madness

Oh god, please tell me stories on how are you keeping detect secrets on at most times with a monk (while getting "all the work" from gems like identify at the same time). Not to mention that if you want this spell reliably you go gadgie, of course.

For grinding he has charm

Literally like a post or two ago you were saying about stupid grinding with useless spells or something to that effect. Not to mention that, yeah, you guessed it - cucked out of it early and hard.

This is a mix of good observations and bullshit.

Psionicist may be the most powerful class in the game once Power Cast is unlocked with the School bonus. It will get there, even on Expert, in a way Bard can only dream of. Only one spell lol. It is too bad Slow is so unplayable granted because it's really good for training up your attacking classes. Monk on the other hand, yeah it's an uphill climb. Another case of the Crit Strike classes really needing small parties to get there.

You can't rely on Gadge for Detect Secrets because you don't get the Gadget until Gigas Caves. Detect is a great way for hybrids to train up Mental School but is a royal pain to keep up for a long time. I think Searching makes it harder to detect/sneak so another reason to just fire up a Ranger so you don't have to worry about it, and train up Earth with Camouflage while you're at it.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Psionic the most powerful class, great observation indeed. Yes, it has literally one essential spell that bard will be able to cast quicker and more reliably with no sp issues. And it brings zero additional value like alchemist does (which is the other non-essential spell school) and is extremely fragile with extremely poor equipment options to boot. Having wasted points in communication is a minor point compared to that, but still sucks.

 

[Darth Canoli]

octavius
I edited my previous messages, I didn't mean Ranged weapons are great, they are but extended weapons rule because you can hit whatever is hitting you in melee without having to move.

You can, and you have to, reorganize your party at no cost at any time during the turn execution and the party will swap positions at the end of the turn, this trick is really useful when you're surrounded and cleared all the monsters on one side, you switch everyone and don't waste actions on the walking action.

You do a bit less damage with extended weapons than with the most powerful short-ranged ones but you use most of you attacks and swings so in the end, you ditch more damage.


Most efficient classes:
Wizard for AoE damage, particularly if you pair him with a Bishop or a magic focused samuraï and/or a Ranger. But the main reason is all those debuff spells, freeze flesh and freeze all are life savers but other spells work well depending on the circumstances.

Mook Fighter for the Giant's sword or polearm fighter, because extended range melee + ranged attacks means you don't have to waste you time running after monsters, except on rare occasions where you have to get to close combat fast or suffer.

Valkyrie, great buff and heal spells, polearm and the cheat death trick which is helpful sometimes.

Ranger, focus on ranged combat and some buffs like the Valkyrie, great for slaughtering enemies from afar, no melee weapon is necessary.

Gadgeteer, mostly from mid to late game, because early on, he sucks and so does his low level omnigun but later, on top of a deadly omnigun, he can build double-shot crossbows and triple-shot ones, plus double-shot slings.
Ranged + gadget only, no melee investment required.

Bishop, he's weak early on, but from mid game, he can be a part-time weaker wizard and part-time great healing and buffing machine.


It's better to bring either a Thief, Ninja or Bard to manage the traps and in spite of his great back-stab, the thief is the one I like the less because of short ranged weapons.

And I find the samurai quite fun and better in a team with few melee characters so he doesn't waste his lightning strikes when it triggers. Lightning strike is one of the little pleasures when playing this game, like thrown crits and ranged crits.

 

[Jasede]

It's been a long time but the two thoughts I have were that the psionicist is the only one that can equip the moderately powerful but very rare PK Crystal and that when I played, specializing your Samurai on mostly melee is a big mistake. It's better to think of him as a pretty decent melee guy who can also throw useful spells just as often as he fights.

Honestly I would recommend neither for a newer player. But lightning strikes is great.

Playing without a Ranger is madness. The quality of life searching is mandatory.

The survivability, utility and equipment options of a Bard really make the Psionicist pretty redundant.

I've had both parties, and honestly, the Psionicist isn't completely useless. He can do some okay damage and Insanity, when not playing on Expert, is pretty good in most fights. Sadly the Bard is just so much tankier and more versatile.

 

[octavius]

It's weird I should struggle so with Wiz 8 (a game that I have seen being described as easy) even with an imported party.
Normally I find most CRPGs rather easy, and I never grind (the only RPG I've grinded was one of the few JRPGs I've played) and I rarely bother with min-maxing my characters.
I guess Wiz 8 is one of the most complex CRPGs since there seems to be much less concensus about best builds compared to most other CRPGs, and it thus has a higher learning curve.
I even tried using a new party, but crap items and no "free" skills makes it quite a bit harder. No Artifacts skills hurts quite a bit, so I guess a Bishop is more useful in for a new party. In an imported party, I start with 16 Artifacts, 20 Mythology and all but the Valkyrie who never class changed, start with 20 Stealth.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I guess Wiz 8 is one of the most complex CRPGs since there seems to be much less concensus about best builds compared to most other CRPGs, and it thus has a higher learning curve.

The lack of a consensus on best builds is primarily due to the fact that Wiz8 is a game where almost every party composition works. It's not even so much because of its complexity, but thanks to all the classes being equally useful, and to the multitude of ways in which you can replace classes that would otherwise be vital with all sorts of items (consumable or not).

As for a higher learning curve, I don't know really. I'm pretty sure it was the first real blobber that I actually played (maybe second after MM5, but not sure) and I never felt all that overwhelmed by it on my first playthrough.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

The lack of consensus is also largely caused by the fact that a lot of people factor in skill cheesing when rating classes plus fail to acknowledge the realities of the game (throwing ninja is cool, screw the fact there's nothing to throw). The game also has a crapload of meme equipment options that's you'll never see when playing the game normally+blind and even more ones that are extremely powerful and designed to be obtained late game, but can easily be cheesed (super)early if you know how.

 

[Desiderius]

I guess Wiz 8 is one of the most complex CRPGs since there seems to be much less concensus about best builds compared to most other CRPGs, and it thus has a higher learning curve.

The lack of a consensus on best builds is primarily due to the fact that Wiz8 is a game where almost every party composition works. It's not even so much because of its complexity, but thanks to all the classes being equally useful, and to the multitude of ways in which you can replace classes that would otherwise be vital with all sorts of items (consumable or not).

As for a higher learning curve, I don't know really. I'm pretty sure it was the first real blobber that I actually played (maybe second after MM5, but not sure) and I never felt all that overwhelmed by it on my first playthrough.

Well the hardest parts are front loaded so it can feel like its harder than it really is, and its a massive advantage to know where everything is and what pitfalls to avoid. If you start out with a party if Dual Wielding Hybrids and a Gadge dumping SPD and not lvling Senses the game is going to feel hard indeed, especially on Expert.

 

[Jasede]

It's weird I should struggle so with Wiz 8 (a game that I have seen being described as easy) even with an imported party.
Normally I find most CRPGs rather easy, and I never grind (the only RPG I've grinded was one of the few JRPGs I've played) and I rarely bother with min-maxing my characters.
I guess Wiz 8 is one of the most complex CRPGs since there seems to be much less concensus about best builds compared to most other CRPGs, and it thus has a higher learning curve.
I even tried using a new party, but crap items and no "free" skills makes it quite a bit harder. No Artifacts skills hurts quite a bit, so I guess a Bishop is more useful in for a new party. In an imported party, I start with 16 Artifacts, 20 Mythology and all but the Valkyrie who never class changed, start with 20 Stealth.

I have a few thoughts.

1)
Unless you did some absurd pre-import grinding (get all skills to 100) and also get lucky/abuse the way the import items code works, an imported party might be harder to play with than a new one. First, the encounter leveled list system will give you much deadlier enemies, and second, a Wizardry 7 party will usually include many Hybrids: Ninja, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop, Lord... But many of these classes have a weak early game and only shine later. My W8z 6-7-8 party was all hybrids and thus the beginning of 8 was an absolute slog because low level Samurai and Monks and other hybrids are just not very good.

2)
There's no best party that's true. All are viable. This includes things like 4 Bishops, solo Ninja, solo Monk, etc. But these parties all have power curves. Generally speaking, the non-hybrids are far far stronger early game. And they're viable in the end game too (that's the beauty of it) - so what's the advantage of classes that are weak at the start, like the hybrids? More flexibility and often a higher lategame damage output. You'll be very happy to have the Kirijutsu/Critical Strike skill in the Rapax castle...

3) The game isn't overly complex. It was one of my first RPGs and my first Wizardry, as a child. I loved it. But I'll give you this very important tip: make a new, not imported party of all or mostly base classes, for example Fighter Valkyrie Bard Ranger Priest Mage - this party has a lot of healers, 3 pure classes (mage priest fighter) and starts with one of the best instruments in the game. Just use that party to play the monastery again. You'll quickly see that it's much much easier as compared to your imported party.

I also resent the notion that throwing Ninja is a powergamer meme. You can just buy more throwing weapons.

 

[Darth Roxor]

boomerang shuriken, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Desiderius]

It's weird I should struggle so with Wiz 8 (a game that I have seen being described as easy) even with an imported party.
Normally I find most CRPGs rather easy, and I never grind (the only RPG I've grinded was one of the few JRPGs I've played) and I rarely bother with min-maxing my characters.
I guess Wiz 8 is one of the most complex CRPGs since there seems to be much less concensus about best builds compared to most other CRPGs, and it thus has a higher learning curve.
I even tried using a new party, but crap items and no "free" skills makes it quite a bit harder. No Artifacts skills hurts quite a bit, so I guess a Bishop is more useful in for a new party. In an imported party, I start with 16 Artifacts, 20 Mythology and all but the Valkyrie who never class changed, start with 20 Stealth.

I have a few thoughts.

1)
Unless you did some absurd pre-import grinding (get all skills to 100) and also get lucky/abuse the way the import items code works, an imported party might be harder to play with than a new one. First, the encounter leveled list system will give you much deadlier enemies, and second, a Wizardry 7 party will usually include many Hybrids: Ninja, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop, Lord... But many of these classes have a weak early game and only shine later. My W8z 6-7-8 party was all hybrids and thus the beginning of 8 was an absolute slog because low level Samurai and Monks and other hybrids are just not very good.

2)
There's no best party that's true. All are viable. This includes things like 4 Bishops, solo Ninja, solo Monk, etc. But these parties all have power curves. Generally speaking, the non-hybrids are far far stronger early game. And they're viable in the end game too (that's the beauty of it) - so what's the advantage of classes that are weak at the start, like the hybrids? More flexibility and often a higher lategame damage output. You'll be very happy to have the Kirijutsu/Critical Strike skill in the Rapax castle...

3) The game isn't overly complex. It was one of my first RPGs and my first Wizardry, as a child. I loved it. But I'll give you this very important tip: make a new, not imported party of all or mostly base classes, for example Fighter Valkyrie Bard Ranger Priest Mage - this party has a lot of healers, 3 pure classes (mage priest fighter) and starts with one of the best instruments in the game. Just use that party to play the monastery again. You'll quickly see that it's much much easier as compared to your imported party.

I also resent the notion that throwing Ninja is a powergamer meme. You can just buy more throwing weapons.

The problem is that none of the Throwing Weapons in Vanilla are very good, although a well-played Ninja doesn’t really need them to be. You can of course stay stocked from vendors or just use Sling/Bombs/Powders too.

 

[Darth Roxor]

slings don't work with the ninja's thrown criticals and auto-pen tho

 

[octavius]

1)
Unless you did some absurd pre-import grinding (get all skills to 100) and also get lucky/abuse the way the import items code works, an imported party might be harder to play with than a new one. First, the encounter leveled list system will give you much deadlier enemies, and second, a Wizardry 7 party will usually include many Hybrids: Ninja, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop, Lord... But many of these classes have a weak early game and only shine later. My W8z 6-7-8 party was all hybrids and thus the beginning of 8 was an absolute slog because low level Samurai and Monks and other hybrids are just not very good.

My imported party is Lord, Monk, Ninja, two Samurai, Valkyrie, so only hybrids.
But that's no problem, since I can just change them to base classes right away.

Anyway, I've played through the Monastery with several parties now.

The first one I changed the Lord to Priest, and it felt like an uphill battle when I started facing lots of Metallic Slimes, I assume thanks to resting twice. I only played until the start of the Upper Monastery when my party was almost wiped out by a horde of rats. The amount of monsters was crazy in this game compared to the next two I started.

Second one I kept the Lord, changed one of the Samurais to a Ranger, didn't rest and things went smoothly.

Third one I changed one of the Samurais to a Gadgeteer, didn't rest and things went smoothly.
In all three cases I changed the Monk to Bard, and kept the Ninja, Valk and second Samurai. In the last two cases lack of single class Priest and Mage started to be felt, when I lacked crucial debuffing and buffing spells, as well as any good damage spell vs enemy spell casters.

Fourth try was with a new party.
Fighter, Priest, Valkyrie, Psionic, Mage, and Gadgeteer. I was forced to rest and the crazy respawns forced me to rest again, which caused crazy respawns which forced me to reconsider an imported party again, but this time maybe turning Ninja to Mage.

 

[Desiderius]

1)
Unless you did some absurd pre-import grinding (get all skills to 100) and also get lucky/abuse the way the import items code works, an imported party might be harder to play with than a new one. First, the encounter leveled list system will give you much deadlier enemies, and second, a Wizardry 7 party will usually include many Hybrids: Ninja, Samurai, Ranger, Bishop, Lord... But many of these classes have a weak early game and only shine later. My W8z 6-7-8 party was all hybrids and thus the beginning of 8 was an absolute slog because low level Samurai and Monks and other hybrids are just not very good.

My imported party is Lord, Monk, Ninja, two Samurai, Valkyrie, so only hybrids.
But that's no problem, since I can just change them to base classes right away.

Anyway, I've played through the Monastery with several parties now.

The first one I changed the Lord to Priest, and it felt like an uphill battle when I started facing lots of Metallic Slimes, I assume thanks to resting twice. I only played until the start of the Upper Monastery when my party was almost wiped out by a horde of rats. The amount of monsters was crazy in this game compared to the next two I started.

Second one I kept the Lord, changed one of the Samurais to a Ranger, didn't rest and things went smoothly.

Third one I changed one of the Samurais to a Gadgeteer, didn't rest and things went smoothly.
In all three cases I changed the Monk to Bard, and kept the Ninja, Valk and second Samurai. In the last two cases lack of single class Priest and Mage started to be felt, when I lacked crucial debuffing and buffing spells, as well as any good damage spell vs enemy spell casters.

Fourth try was with a new party.
Fighter, Priest, Valkyrie, Psionic, Mage, and Gadgeteer. I was forced to rest and the crazy respawns forced me to rest again, which caused crazy respawns which forced me to reconsider an imported party again, but this time maybe turning Ninja to Mage.

Lol, no it’s your whole problem.

Multiclassing works entirely differently in Wiz8 vs Wiz7.

 

[octavius]

Yes, I know it works differently. What's your point?

 

[Jasede]

Also try to avoid resting and use healing spells instead. And if you do rest, do it in some corner or in a room with only one narrow entrance.

 

[notpl]

Realizing that it's smarter to use your SP-restore consumables and potions and such instead of resting whenever possible is key to enjoying Wiz 8. The respawn timer is measured in seconds, not hours, resting for any amount of time restocks the entire map with monsters.

And once you get to Arnika, try to get heal wounds on everyone that can cast it via spellbooks (sold in the temple, restocks over time). Alchemy/psionic spellbook users have no other use for their divine realm SPs, they can keep people topped up between battles.

 

[Jasede]

Yeah, that.

 

[octavius]

Yes, I agree.
But the problem with a new party is not being able to ID healing potions unless you invest in Artifacts. Do people usually invest in that skill?

 

[Desiderius]

Realizing that it's smarter to use your SP-restore consumables and potions and such instead of resting whenever possible is key to enjoying Wiz 8. The respawn timer is measured in seconds, not hours, resting for any amount of time restocks the entire map with monsters.

And once you get to Arnika, try to get heal wounds on everyone that can cast it via spellbooks (sold in the temple, restocks over time). Alchemy/psionic spellbook users have no other use for their divine realm SPs, they can keep people topped up between battles.

They eventually get a very good use for it if you train up with Heal Wounds.

 

[Desiderius]

But the problem with a new party is not being able to ID healing potions unless you invest in Artifacts. Do people usually invest in that skill?

Nah, it goes up naturally at first on your Bard if you lvl up Senses to unlock Eagle Eye (and any other character with decent SEN/INT) but Bard starts with pts in it. Once you start mixing Pots it will go up fast but you’ll always need to cast ID on a few things into midgame.

You can also lvl it up with Stix which are better than they look because they’re autohit.

SEN is better than it looks and SPD worse since once you can cast Haste you don’t really need SPD outside of maybe trying to win initiative to get Shields up (which you can manage other ways).

 

[notpl]

SEN and SPD contribute equally to initiative, so maxing SEN is pretty much always better than maxing SPD in a world where haste exists.

 

[Desiderius]

Some people do both on a Caster or two to get Shields up, but you can just start combat at range (or around a corner) to get around needing that.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Out of curiosity, I checked out the CRPG Addict's articles on Wizardry 6 to check out the screenshots. You're telling me the entire fucking GAME consists of grey motherfucking bricks? For fuck's sake, I was looking forward to getting out of this fucking mountain and going to that forest, but now I know that the forest is ALSO grey fucking bricks. Holy shit. They should've just made this game wireframe like Wiz1. At least then I can use my imagination.