Decline Thiaf Pre-Release Thread

[Cyberarmy]

Garret going to romance his bow and arrows on lonely nights.

 

[Gord]

But, thats in the Day1 DLC pack! Can I has promotion now?

See Gord?
This is what im talking about! progressive thinking.

Cthulhu ... How would you like to take executive position huh? You seem just the type we are looking for.

Noooooo! I will try, promise!
How about, Always Online requirement! Diablo 3 did it and sold like buckets!
We can tell the players that the advanced enemy AI has to be simulated server-side as modern gaming pcs wouldn't be up to the task, unless they had 20 cores and a hundred thousand GHz, minimum.

Better?

 

[Borelli]

I hope they don't screw up the map, which is very easy to do because if your mind for just a moment approaches the popamole mentality you will want to put detailed floor plans and exact guards positions on it.

 

[DraQ]

I'm certain they'll put exclamation/question marks over the heads of the guards, when they get alerted. That or any visual indicator, like metal gear and dishonored...

At least in Dishonored you could just disable all that nextgen crap, leaving the game with AI being completely unequipped to deal with stealthy magic user as its only serious problem (seriously, it can't even investigate properly, doesn't react to environmental changes, can't be arsed to look up, remarks but doesn't otherwise react to missing patrols, etc. and that's beside being nearly blind and deaf).

And with next-gen crap disabled Dishonored becomes a honest, solid DeusEx-like, without cover systems, cinefaggic third person shit, and awesome paused-time takedowns.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

At least in Dishonored you could just disable all that nextgen crap, leaving the game with AI being completely unequipped to deal with stealthy magic user as its only serious problem (seriously, it can't even investigate properly, doesn't react to environmental changes, can't be arsed to look up, remarks but doesn't otherwise react to missing patrols, etc. and that's beside being nearly blind and deaf).

Well, compare them to the AI in Thief 1 & 2 for a moment. T1 & T2 AI certainly isn't deaf, and they do investigate things when suspicious, but they have eyesight problems unless you really manage to piss them off, then they're suddenly near-omniscient. While they can be made to remark (and act) about some environmental changes, it's very rare that they do so unless the lights have been turned off. They only tend to look up in Omniscience Mode, and don't notice or care about missing patrols unless they happen to come upon the bodies.

For an AI developed in 1998, this is above the norm. Compared to an AI included in a AAA 2012 game, there is little to no advancement in AI technology or development, but that doesn't mean that the older AI is superawesome.

 

[MetalCraze]

AAA 2012 games have AI? Is that how you call heavy cinematic scripts nowadays?

 

[Morgoth]

There has been no advancement in AI for over a decade because modern gamers are dumb and they only want to win. The market always provides what the masses want.

 

[DraQ]

At least in Dishonored you could just disable all that nextgen crap, leaving the game with AI being completely unequipped to deal with stealthy magic user as its only serious problem (seriously, it can't even investigate properly, doesn't react to environmental changes, can't be arsed to look up, remarks but doesn't otherwise react to missing patrols, etc. and that's beside being nearly blind and deaf).

Well, compare them to the AI in Thief 1 & 2 for a moment. T1 & T2 AI certainly isn't deaf, and they do investigate things when suspicious, but they have eyesight problems unless you really manage to piss them off, then they're suddenly near-omniscient. While they can be made to remark (and act) about some environmental changes, it's very rare that they do so unless the lights have been turned off. They only tend to look up in Omniscience Mode, and don't notice or care about missing patrols unless they happen to come upon the bodies.

For an AI developed in 1998, this is above the norm. Compared to an AI included in a AAA 2012 game, there is little to no advancement in AI technology or development, but that doesn't mean that the older AI is superawesome.

But that makes no fucking sense. I can understand combat AI requiring gradual advancement, but with situational, counter stealth AI all it takes is having certain objects, events or hidden markers created by some actions trip the right behaviour!



I guess Morgoth may be right after all - AI is dumb because developers want it to be dumb, because their audiences are retarded, but why not spice it up on higher difficulty settings?

 

[Infinitron]

Consoles don't have enough memories?

 

[JarlFrank]

At least in Dishonored you could just disable all that nextgen crap, leaving the game with AI being completely unequipped to deal with stealthy magic user as its only serious problem (seriously, it can't even investigate properly, doesn't react to environmental changes, can't be arsed to look up, remarks but doesn't otherwise react to missing patrols, etc. and that's beside being nearly blind and deaf).

Well, compare them to the AI in Thief 1 & 2 for a moment. T1 & T2 AI certainly isn't deaf, and they do investigate things when suspicious, but they have eyesight problems unless you really manage to piss them off, then they're suddenly near-omniscient. While they can be made to remark (and act) about some environmental changes, it's very rare that they do so unless the lights have been turned off. They only tend to look up in Omniscience Mode, and don't notice or care about missing patrols unless they happen to come upon the bodies.

For an AI developed in 1998, this is above the norm. Compared to an AI included in a AAA 2012 game, there is little to no advancement in AI technology or development, but that doesn't mean that the older AI is superawesome.

But that makes no fucking sense. I can understand combat AI requiring gradual advancement, but with situational, counter stealth AI all it takes is having certain objects, events or hidden markers created by some actions trip the right behaviour!



I guess Morgoth may be right after all - AI is dumb because developers want it to be dumb, because their audiences are retarded, but why not spice it up on higher difficulty settings?

I think there are a few Thief fan missions out there that have the AI react more to environmental changes. I once read of one where the guards would go on alert as soon as they'd notice a light not being switched on when it should be, or a door that's open but should be closed. There's also a nobleman in his room who goes on alert when he discovers that you stole something from his desk.

I don't remember the name of the mission though. Unkillable Cat or SCO might know which one I'm talking about.

Increased AI awareness is as easy as doing some scripting.

 

[Mastermind]

Hahahahahahaha oh wow.
OH WOW.
That looks exactly like Oblivion's lockpicking minigame.
If it actually plays the same, then... oh wow. How can you take inspiration from that horrible turd Oblivion for a fucking Thief game. Wow.

Oblivion's lockpicking "minigame" is quite similar to real life lockpicking (except you can't see the tumblers in real life). So most likely they took inspiration from... real locks. It just looks similar to Oblivion because Oblivion did the same thing.

 

[JarlFrank]

Thing is, it was not a very fun minigame in Oblivion and I doubt it'd be anything but annoying in Thi4f either.

 

[tuluse]

Consoles don't have enough memories?

AI isn't really memory dependent.

 

[Infinitron]

Consoles don't have enough memories?

AI isn't really memory dependent.

But having many complex AI scripts (each with its own dynamic variables) running at the same time is.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I think there are a few Thief fan missions out there that have the AI react more to environmental changes. I once read of one where the guards would go on alert as soon as they'd notice a light not being switched on when it should be, or a door that's open but should be closed. There's also a nobleman in his room who goes on alert when he discovers that you stole something from his desk.

I can't remember an FM that did that, but the OM "Strange Bedfellows" in Thief 1 had the Hammerites go on full alert and sound the alarm if certain lootables were missing when they passed by.

That said, this could explain how retarded some of the guards are in CoSaS Mission X. They can't find you in a dark room even when they bump into you, but go apeshit bananas if you stub your toe at the other end of a mile-long corridor.

 

[tuluse]

Consoles don't have enough memories?

AI isn't really memory dependent.

But having many complex AI scripts (each with its own dynamic variables) running at the same time is.

Compared to other aspects of games, AI barely uses any memory, and you're not going to see more than 10 characters on screen in a console game anyways.

 

[SCO]

It doesn't use memory... but uses a hell of a lot of cpu time, especially if you're trying to do some kind of agent soup (like stealth games are, due to alerts, warning others, watching for the player, reacting to other passing AI, missing objects etc). At least if you're not cheating that is.

 

[MetalCraze]

But having many complex AI scripts (each with its own dynamic variables) running at the same time is.

That's CPU bro. Not that it matters - CPU is weak in consoles and upcoming ones bearing a laptop AMD CPU that has the maximum frequency of 2.0 GHz per core won't change that.

 

[Infinitron]

But having many complex AI scripts (each with its own dynamic variables) running at the same time is.

That's CPU bro.

Emphasis on "dynamic variables", ie state.

 

[tuluse]

It doesn't use memory... but uses a hell of a lot of cpu time, especially if you're trying to do some kind of agent soup (like stealth games are, due to alerts, warning others, watching for the player, reacting to other passing AI, missing objects etc). At least if you're not cheating that is.

I suspect what makes it even worse us that AI is heavily branch dependant and I think current gen consoles use in order cpu designs.

 

[Gord]

I think there are a few Thief fan missions out there that have the AI react more to environmental changes. I once read of one where the guards would go on alert as soon as they'd notice a light not being switched on when it should be, or a door that's open but should be closed. There's also a nobleman in his room who goes on alert when he discovers that you stole something from his desk.

I don't remember the name of the mission though. Unkillable Cat or SCO might know which one I'm talking about.

Increased AI awareness is as easy as doing some scripting.

In many levels of the old Thief games it was somewhat plausible, I think. You had servants running around the house, other guards, the inhabitants, etc. As a guard I probably wouldn't wonder too much about an open door (unless it's the front door or such). And torches go out on their own, as well. Now if there's a puddle of water beneath the torch...

Edit: What broke the plausibility was that they could obviously distinguish between Garret and a guard/servant from the sound of your steps. Because the player would trigger suspicion when moving too loudly out of sight of a NPC, while other NPCs wouldn't.

That's CPU bro. Not that it matters - CPU is weak in consoles and upcoming ones bearing a laptop AMD CPU that has the maximum frequency of 2.0 GHz per core won't change that.

It's not that weak when you consider that we are comparing it to games from the late 90s. And as the new consoles have 8 cpu cores, it shouldn't be too hard to offload some AI processing to their own threads. So yes, I think we can expect the hardware to be up to the task. The issue is probably that it's hard to do it right programming wise. And considering that most gamers won't ever notice/care anyway it's no wonder they don't put much effort into it.

 

[DraQ]

Consoles don't have enough memories?

AI isn't really memory dependent.

But having many complex AI scripts (each with its own dynamic variables) running at the same time is.

Having AI switching to alerted on seeing stuff like broken window, flagged door in different than original state or invisible dummy object dropped when player picks up stuff IN ADDITION to catching glimpse of player (which is already in) is not complex script with many dynamic variables.

Patrols are a bit trickier (depending on how realistic you want it to be - from simple timer ticking down from the moment patrol gets missing, through to having invisible object dropped by patrol the moment it goes missing (dead, unconscious or moved far enough from its patrol route) that moves around the route at patrols normal speed and triggers countdown in any other patrol seeing it, that gets cancelled (and object destroyed) if they see the missing patrol again (if for some reasons you can't calculate the intervals at which patrols will meet beforehand and set the timer on last seeing the patrol).

It's still not that demanding, as simple, AI-less object (not even actual pathfinding as it can just move from node to node without collision) replaces complex, AI-full entity (if the player actually disappeared the patrol) or, at worst, temporarily complements it.

 

[SCO]

You're being pretty reductionist there DraQ. All code can get arbitrarily complex since ideas have implementations, and even the lowlevel crap like dealing with time already bloats code and causes bugs, much less a involved system like you're proposing there (not that i have anything against involved systems, hacks like that are often the best way to get back performance, and i suggested one myself in the Dark Mod forums, to 'turn off' AI if a complete patrol routes was done after the player is some distance away from the AI patrol route and after one more is completed).

 

[Morgoth]

AI in combination with procedural bipedial animations is were the fun is at. Because you can't expect Benny the thorough guard doing things if the animation is not in place. Having a 1000 different AI states also requires a 1000 different animation sets --> content issue, not code issue.

 

[JarlFrank]

Edit: What broke the plausibility was that they could obviously distinguish between Garret and a guard/servant from the sound of your steps. Because the player would trigger suspicion when moving too loudly out of sight of a NPC, while other NPCs wouldn't.

It would be really fucking cool to have a system where guards don't care about footsteps in heavily travelled areas (other guard patrols, servant traffic), but will get suspicious about footsteps within locked rooms that are supposed to be empty, or un-patrolled hallways.
Oh, and what would be even more awesome, guards getting suspicious when there are no footsteps at all coming from a room that's supposed to be patrolled, and looking if the patrol is still there.

Oh how I want someone to actually make a good stealth game that tries to improve on Thief.