Things you are looking foward to, in Oblivion.

[Frau Bishop]

I´m looking forward to see Eitar stir things up - and some down, maybe her panties.

 

[Tintin]

Did anybody else see how he didn't answer the question?

Question: So is the dialogue any good?

Answer: Well there's the AI which makes Wood Elves attack Dears and there's these scripted conversations you can overhear.

Given what I most enjoyed about Morrowind was wandering around looking at the pretty scenery and collecting pretty items and given that Oblivion has less pretty items than Morrowind and that the pretty scenery is going to look fugly on my machine, I'd have to say I'm most looking forward to the mods.

I agree. When the question asks about dialogue but mostly memorable NPCs and lack of them in Morrowind, how dare he sidetrack and proceed to talk about what the NPCs and dialogue between them were like! It was stupid of him, I agree. Next time he should learn that it's better to ignore most of the question and focus on the small part which appeals to RPG Codex.

 

[NoisyKillerHPB]

I hit reply and I'm surprised I can only think of a few things and it's a kinda sad list, I could add another Patrick or erosion joke on the list but it's getting old

Mods
Graphics
AI
New stealth and combat

 

[Section8]

Exploration certainly, One thing Morrowind absolutely nailed was a vast, detailed world to explore, and that counts for something. I also hope that somewhere in Oblivion's 16 mi^2 there's something interesting to actually do.

I'm curious to see what has been, and what can be done with Radiant AI. It's certainly a step in the right dierction, since it decreases script reliance, and should provide some emergent behaviours. So here's to hoping it's used as more than a NPC scheduler.

And also, the construction set, moreso for others' mods rather than my own, but I might see myself tinkering.

Oh and...

even aside from the dynamic AI behaviour, there's a lot of stuff semi-scripted in -- for instance, NPCs will run into each other and have very lengthy, meaningful conversations -- it's not just background noise stuff like they did (to decent effect) in the Gothic series -- for instance, in the assassin's guild, you could overhear one NPC telling another about his last job and the things that went wrong. I encountered a lot of those, and the best thing about them was, I didn't hear a lot (any?) redundancy -- I think there's essentially a pool of conversations for major characters that can pop up, as well as conversations that specifically relate to events that have occurred in the game, which seems really cool. There seems to be a LOT of this stuff.

That sounds kind of nice, but it also sounds as though a major portion of the 50 hours of VO is dedicated toward "flavour" rather than direct interaction with the player. It's just seeming more and more like Oblivion's game world will be great to be in, wandering around, just as long as you don't try doing anything, or talking to anyone.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

When the question asks about dialogue but mostly memorable NPCs and lack of them in Morrowind, how dare he sidetrack and proceed to talk about what the NPCs and dialogue between them were like!

He didn't though. He talked about a Ranger hunting Dear (nothing to do with the quality of the dialogue) and scripted conversations you can listen in to (but fails to mention anything about the actual quality of what they're saying or how memorable it was or if they had personality).

Did you get much of a feel for the quality of dialogue and some of the NPC personalities, Desslock?

See how that question has two parts and that the second part has the word "some", yet the answer is all only loosely based around the second part (After all, how does listening into a bland conversation make that NPC "memorable" or give them personality)? Did you fail to notice how he doesn't actually address even the second part properly about how memorable the actual characters themselves are? All he says are "You can overhear conversations". Even better "I think there's essentially a pool of conversations for major characters that can pop up". So major characters potentially all say the same thing. How does that make them memorable or give them personality or have anything to do with the quality of the dialogue?

What's really cool are the last two points of his answer though:

- all NPCs have full speech, so you don't have to read the text - I still tend to skip through dialogue as fast as I can read it, but it's obviously cool for ancillary conversations not involving your character.

- there's things like Newspapers which are also updated based upon events in the game (for instance "emperor assassinated", is a headline at the beginning of the game), and you see NPCs reading the paper and blabbing about stuff in it, etc.

Yet more answers which have nothing to do with quality of dialogue, personality of characters or how memorable the characters are. Here we go though, from a ittle later in the thread:

stuff about NPCs

Yes, but when you talk to them, are they unique? Or are they database indexers? Walking around spewing random talk and lighting their dogs on fire is all well and good, but if I talk to these people, will they be people? Or will the be a frontend to the hivemind?

One of the greatest things about Ultima 7, IMO, is that every single person in the world is written. They are not filler NPCs. Hell, even guards in some towns have a story to tell. And even if they ARE filler NPCs, just the fact that they have a name, a job, and will tell you a little bit about themselves or the plot is very important for immersion, IMO.

Other than some generic guards, they're all unique - I don't think it's random stuff from a database that they're saying (although some of the current event stuff may be). They also all look unique, and the character customization options put to shame even most MMOs to ensure that. Their motivations are also "unique", which gives them distinct personalities -- for instance, some may be less inclined to work and more inclined to hang out eating, or may be inclined to be lazy and read a lot, or may spend a lot of time practising -- and that stuff isn't scripted, so it'll vary depending upon the occasion you visit. So he might decide to go visit his relative in a completely different town, once a month, and you might see him there, for instance.

I Agree on Ultima 7 - the only games that have topped Ultima 7 since, in terms of giving NPCs characters, have been the Gothic series - having recently played through the gold edition, I was amazed again how damn interesting the NPCs are. It's a high bar to top, and given how Bethesda has actually traditionally done such a terrible job with NPCs in the other Elder Scrolls games - can't get more cardboard than Daggerfall's, and Morrowind's may have looked unique, but they didn't have personality either - I think Oblivion looked very, very promising on this front.

For instance, I spent a lot of time doing the Dark Brotherhood quests (which were all great, and very involved - far from the old Daggerfall fed ex/kill stuff), and in the guildhouse I frequented the characters were very distinct - a psychopathic Orc, who bragged about past jobs (to other NPCs as well), particularly comes to mind.

It's always scary when you have to ask someone twice for an answer and they still miss half the question. They're unique, they have personalities but are they really memorable and is what they say coming from some quality writing? I'm a little suspicious about visiting relatives though and that bit about their motivations. I wonder if he's actually seen that happen (in which case, that's really, really cool) or is he just spewing developer lines he's heard?

I better add. I also look forward to seeing what Oblivion's release potentially means for Fallout 3.

 

[yipsl]

In an effort to counter out all the Oblivion loathing, I thought I'd start a topic about things people are actually looking foward to in the game ...

For me, it's going to a new province, and the new lore.

So, is there something, if anything, that you're looking foward to, about Oblivion?

I see Oblivion as a reimagining of Arena. Arena began in the Imperial dungeons and then gated you to a town in your home province. When you got back to Cyrodiil, it was only to the Imperial City where you could get ready for the showdown with Jagar Tharn.

This time around, you get to explore the Imperial Province in depth while experiencing a storyline that began with Daedric manipulation of Jagar Tharn. In Arena, we found the Emperor in a pocket dimension and rescued him. Now, we get to find the Heir and I'm still intrigued by comments Todd made that about the Heir's reunion with the Blades.

The cathedrals seem to be Arena updated, as opposed to Daggerfall's various benefices, houses and temples updated. The minotaur is back, and it was one of my favorites in Arena. I'm simply going to have to mod at least one lonely minotaur with a skin condition such that he's yellow for old time's sake.

Overall, I'm looking forward to walking through Cyrodiil's forests updated with new technology. Though I see traditional RPG losses in Oblivion, and the new tech can be construed as eye candy mainstreaming, I think Oblivion can go far towards establishing the series as a major player in the next gen RPGs. Then, they can begin to add, instead of taking away.

In many ways, I think it will be more complex than Gothic 3 or The Witcher (both of which I'm looking forward to) and if it's even half as good as the marketing hype makes it out to be, then it won't be as bad as the lost features make it appear.

It'll be just like in GTA:SA. I'll take my girlfriends with me on my horse to various restaurants, until they invites me in for hot coffee. Rollplaying is great!

Nope, no GTA: Cyrodiil City. You can get invited in for a hot Cyrodiilic brandy but then you find out that the girl's wearing a chastity belt bought at Todd's Chaste Emporium.

For some more comments by Emil see: http://bloodandshadows.com/index.php?showtopic=32

Where he says:

So I've been looking through the previous posts, searching for any appropriate questions.

Valas, you asked if, in order to effectively assassinate someone, you'd need to learn their schedules, plan your attack, etc., or whether it would just be a matter of engaging them in one-on-one combat.

It's definitely a lot of both, with a lot of player choice available.

Because an assassin's job is to, well, assassinate someone, it's kind of hard to fail a particular mission. As long as the target is dead, you've succeeded. So, in a lot of instances, you could very well walk up to him, bash him in the face with your warhammer, and complete the job.

But, in Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline, for a lot of the contracts the player will gain bonuses (in the form of gold or stealth-based magic items) if they complete it in a particular way. So a player can Conan his way through the questline and still win. But a stealthy, patient player will definitely reap better benefits. Oh yeah, and if you want to tail a target, follow his schedule, see when he's vulnerable? You can totally do that, and it's pretty awesome.

Much more interesting posts follow. As a lover of hybrid characters mixing Acrobat and Mage or Acrobat and Healer, I've joined that forum too.

On whether a dog barking can alert an NPC:

Let me address the questions about the dog, arrow hitting the wall, etc. Basically, the detection formula only accounts for the player. So no, they wouldn't be alerted to the sound of an arrow hitting a wall, or a dog's barking. Sound is part of the overall detection formula which also considers things like your Sneak skill, light levels, and opponents' Sneak skills.

Question about poisoning. Can't go into any detail. But if you're asking -- "Can the player use poisoned food to kill an NPC in an emergent, non-scripted way" the answer is most definitely... yes.

Regarding the core gameplay of Oblivion and questions about the rating:

Yeah, I obviously can't comment on the rating we're getting, or any other ESRB matter.

But I will say this. When we started designing Oblivion, we sat down and decided on the scenarios we wanted. The ones we thought would be appropriate for a next gen, realistic fantasy title. We're obviously not GTA, so there are things our game simply wasn't going to have from the get-go. You know, propositioning a hooker and taking her behind the woodshed to get hit points back isn't exactly our core gameplay.

So what is the core gameplay of Oblivion? Well, combat. Lots of combat. With bows, with swords, with spells. That in itself could be considered "objectionable." But there are plenty of other rather "non innocent" gameplay elements. Stealing. Assassination of innocent people. Gambling. Drinking mead in a run-down tavern. So it's not like there was a whole lot of artistic compromise. We knew what game we wanted to make, and we made it. The questlines have a lot of story and character variety, so you never know what you might encounter.

I really don't think you guys have anything to worry about. I mean, hell, you can join the Dark Brotherhood and be the essence of evil. Ain't no way to soften that up.

On stealth and hiding, plus the lock picking minigame:

If you're successfully hidden and shoot a guard, no you're not auto-detected. And yeah, if you can manage to get away from someone who's chasing you, yeah, you can hide. Clothing does not play a role in the stealth dynamic as far as disguise goes.

Rather not answer any questions about the nature of game mechanics like the lockpick minigame, sorry.

I was one of two people who designed the Thief 3 lockpicking minigame, and designed the Oblivion lockpicking mingame, and no, I've never picked a lock in real life. Since in the two instances with the mingames we were going for "fun and believable" and not "hyper realistic" it didn't seem that relevant. I have played just about every lockpicking mingame in every game that had one, if that's any consolation. If not, where do you live? I could try to break in.

On questlines:

Hellwalker, are you talking about the "Life of the Party" mission in Thief 2? That was my mission -- my baby! That whole thing was my Looking Glass labor of love, so I hope it's the one you're taling about! hahaha smile.gif

So you guys are generally wondering about variety in quests, and secret passages.

Well, as for variety -- imagine every questline -- not just Dark Brotherhood -- as a unique story, with its own plot twists and turns. So there will certainly be surprises -- whether that means unique architecture, quests that change direction in mid-stream, secret passages. It really all depends on the quest.

For the Dark Brotherhood, I really tried to utilize the existing game systems and the strength of the Radiant AI. For example, in one of the quests you have to kill all the members of a family, and they're spread across Cyrodiil. So you can really approach that any way you want, using any tools or techniques you want -- follow their schedules and ambush them, talk to them and try to get a certain response, jump them while they sleep, whatever.

So I would say the questlines as a whole are a LOT richer than they were in Morrowind.

He also talks a bit about the Thief series, and the thread's ongoing so I expect he'll get back to it. Emil's work on the DB quests almost make me want to try an assassin, though it's not usually my style. I really believe that murder is bad for business, which is why I'll go Thieves Guild in TES but not Dark Brotherhood in Daggerfall or Morag Tong in Morrowind.

Sometimes, I think you guys need to be a bit more welcoming, even if you're cynical about current trends in RPG development. There's a whole middle ground between being a clueless "OMFG, the game rocks and how can you diss the devs!" fanboy and being a "Fallout is the only good RPG ever made and it's the last one I've played, though I'll continue to bitch and moan about all the current ones" type of gamer. Both are retarded IMHO.

There's a lot to criticize about Bethsoft's marketing and mainstreaming, but the game's not a total loss and I'd rather not see RPGs die out where all we're left with are GTA style pseudo RPGs or Dark Messiah style FPS based on a hallowed RPG license.

 

[spacemoose]

I am looking forward to radiant AI shenannigans and exploring a huge world.

Seriously - would you rather have nothing from Bethesda? I say that Oblivion is better than nothing.

 

[kris]

for instance, in the assassin's guild, you could overhear one NPC telling another about his last job and the things that went wrong.

I would generally as others say that if anything I look forward to see how the AI pans out, it is a interesting concept. Altough I am sure assassins talk about their work like any other normal proffesional man. Mr and Mrs Smith sure could be helped if they done that.

 

[Human Shield]

I am looking forward to radiant AI shenannigans and exploring a huge world.

Seriously - would you rather have nothing from Bethesda? I say that Oblivion is better than nothing.

Not if it farther reduces the chances of getting a good RPG made.

 

[yipsl]

I am looking forward to radiant AI shenannigans and exploring a huge world.

Seriously - would you rather have nothing from Bethesda? I say that Oblivion is better than nothing.

Not if it farther reduces the chances of getting a good RPG made.

I can't see how that could be. IMHO, Dark Messiah of Might and Magic as "Half Life Too" hurts the chances of more RPGs being made. The word on the Might and Magic forums is that Ubisoft knows HOMM V will do well, but they want to see how the FPS Dark Messiah does before committing to a Might and Magic 10; which would be a true RPG.

Compared to what Ubisoft is doing, Bethsoft is getting things the right way, albeit in a less than perfect manner. They aren't doing Battlespire 2, they're trying to keep the game a good RPG but are also trying to attract the mainstream.

It's sort of like RPG elements in Spellforce or RPG stats added to an FPS, they're all trying to attract hard core gamers of each genre while adding features they hope will appeal to the mainstream.

Face it, aside from using mainstream as a pejorative, we're all mainstream gamers in the genres we seldom or don't play. I seldom play FPS and seldom play RTS. I sometimes play turn based strategy and always play RPGs. So, I'm a hardcore HOMM fan but not of other strategy series. I'm a hardcore fan of many classic RPG series. For the rest, I'm mainstream.

 

[foneco]

I'm looking forward to . . . um primarily mods, the original game is still mildly interesting. I can't say I would mind *fun* combat. But the mods . . . Werewolves go to Oblivion . . . :twisted: The construction set in general so I and everyone else can fix/put stuff back. A pretty place to explore is nice. A new engine that I'm not tired of fighting. I really hope it won't present a bunch of new problems though, I'm already ticked off about having to mod levitation back in. Still there's that glimmer of hope that the function will be in the CS or it will be very easy to mod in. Then I can get to building stuff . . .

-S

And Im be looking for mods done by the community that I really hope will keep being the best one ever in any game I played (And As Im 44 I plaed a lot, lol).
I can accept the Morrowind/oblivion bashing but what nobody can deny is the spirit behind Morrowind modding community.
And that's is the only reason that makes Morrowind the best game ever, it's community of modders and mod players alike.

 

[Twinfalls]

<blah>Sometimes, I think you guys need to be a bit more welcoming, even if you're cynical about current trends in RPG development. There's a whole middle ground between being a clueless "OMFG, the game rocks and how can you diss the devs!" fanboy and being a "Fallout is the only good RPG ever made and it's the last one I've played, though I'll continue to bitch and moan about all the current ones" type of gamer. Both are retarded IMHO.

What's retarded is using 'IMHO'. No shit it's your opinion, a redundant caveat isn't going to excuse you if you type up shit. Which is basically what you typed. You're saying 'the Codex is retarded, because everyone is saying Fallout is the only good RPG ever made'. Have you not read the numerous posts by regulars here talking about how good Daggerfall is, and how they wish the makers of Oblivion would aspire to the same ideals as the makers of that game? I somehow fail to see how you couldn't have.

 

[yipsl]

<blah>Sometimes, I think you guys need to be a bit more welcoming, even if you're cynical about current trends in RPG development. There's a whole middle ground between being a clueless "OMFG, the game rocks and how can you diss the devs!" fanboy and being a "Fallout is the only good RPG ever made and it's the last one I've played, though I'll continue to bitch and moan about all the current ones" type of gamer. Both are retarded IMHO.

What's retarded is using 'IMHO'. No shit it's your opinion, a redundant caveat isn't going to excuse you if you type up shit. Which is basically what you typed. You're saying 'the Codex is retarded, because everyone is saying Fallout is the only good RPG ever made'. Have you not read the numerous posts by regulars here talking about how good Daggerfall is, and how they wish the makers of Oblivion would aspire to the same ideals as the makers of that game? I somehow fail to see how you couldn't have.

I'm saying everyone is retarded, or can be retarded, if all they do is react in a not very constructive way all the time. Criticism is warranted in many situations, but when the reaction is one big criticism then it comes across as retarded, much like the knee jerk adulation of fanboyism.

I parodied both the TES fanboy and the Codex reaction to the TES fanboy. I used IMHO to emphasize the point, sort of like an exclamation. The Codex goes to the opposite extreme of the official TES boards, as if it were a mirror universe out of classic Trek. Seriously, there's a whole middle ground. Learn to live in it.

Fans advocating for traditional CRPG features can get improvements made to TES, or any other series, but some mainstreaming will happen because that's where the market is. I've been playing RPGs since 1984 and nowadays I buy about 3 games a year. Usually, they are last year's games dropped down in price. So for the companies to thrive, they have to go with the kids playing games on consoles with disposable income who flit from game to game.

While that may be sad, it's a reality. Would I prefer less graphics and less voice acting for better CRPG gameplay? Yes, I would, but a game like that won't sell to the same degree a game with good graphics and voice acting would. The issue now is to get the game that has to have good graphics and voice acting to also be true to the series RPG roots, otherwise the mainstreaming will be by committee and somebody will say "let's put in some Half Life 2" then someone else will say "let's do some Far Cry". Next it will be "let's make it more urban, make the Redguards like the dudes in GTA" and before you know it, there's no lore, no books, no roleplaying but just a mess of eye candy with attitude and big name voice actors.

Mainly, my comments were directed at the dismissive responses to the thread, as if there was nothing good to say about Oblivion in particular and current games in general. That's a retarded attitude if you ask me and I bet there were old school home computer gamers who had the same attitude about Fallout when it arrived. It's too easy, and sometimes too fun, to be dismissive. Try to be constructive is all I ask, otherwise you're just the mirror universe's answer to the fanboy.

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Well, the soiled erection effect looks interesting on paper, and I hope it'll be a kick-ass feature in Oblivion. Also, Patrick Stewart's name looks good on the casting paper. As do Lynda Carter's.

All in all to be serious: I'm looking forward to a good game, but with my expectations I'm lucky if I even get a soiled erection out of Oblivion.

Edit: I also trust some of the upcoming mods to be fairly nice.

 

[Twinfalls]

The Codex goes to the opposite extreme of the official TES boards, as if it were a mirror universe out of classic Trek. Seriously, there's a whole middle ground. Learn to live in it.

What a load of patronising bullshit. Were this a parallel universe of the TES boards, then everyone here would be as stupid as the monster tykes over there. That's clearly crap.

There is no need whatsoever for people to feel compelled to live in a 'middle ground'. Learn to take the dick out of your mouth and deal with real opinions. Given Bethesda's PR for their game, they deserve strong criticism from fans of what TES used to be. No fucking ifs or buts about it.

Fuck 'balance', 'middle ground', and every other bullshit euphemism for 'you can't have opinions contrary to the herd'.

The 'dismissive attitude' to this thread that you're so critical of is because people are sick to fucking death of retarded Oblivion threads.

 

[Trash]

Damn Twinfalls, are you really getting this upset about a GAME? But back on topic, I look forward to trying to get this beast working on my outdated system. If it does, I'll look if it's got better npc interaction than morrowind. If not, I'll uninstall it. Though I doubt that to be fun.

 

[Fresh]

Well, the soiled erection effect looks interesting on paper, and I hope it'll be a kick-ass feature in Oblivion. Also, Patrick Stewart's name looks good on the casting paper. As do Lynda Carter's.

All in all to be serious: I'm looking forward to a good game, but with my expectations I'm lucky if I even get a soiled erection out of Oblivion.

Edit: I also trust some of the upcoming mods to be fairly nice.

Soiled erection

 

[Data4]

Despite my bitching about certain things, I'm still going to buy it, and dammit, I might even enjoy it. I figure if I go into it expecting a modernized version of an Elder Scrolls Adventures title (Reguard & Battlespire), I'll leave myself open for a pleasant surprise. I never said I didn't like pretty graphics or even voice acting. I just hate the inclusion and focus on things like that at the potential expense of more gameplay-related elements.

Cuts were made, and we bitch and moan about them, but the execution of the entire thing may knock our socks off. Who knows? I just know that I'm cynical enough to not take the word of someone who wants my money that something is "cool" and "fun".

That said, I'm with those who are looking forward to the Thiefy stuff. I liked the Thief series, and if Emil has lived up to his past work in Oblivion, that might be worth the price of the game alone.

-D

 

[Andyman Messiah]

Well, the soiled erection effect looks interesting on paper, and I hope it'll be a kick-ass feature in Oblivion. Also, Patrick Stewart's name looks good on the casting paper. As do Lynda Carter's.

All in all to be serious: I'm looking forward to a good game, but with my expectations I'm lucky if I even get a soiled erection out of Oblivion.

Edit: I also trust some of the upcoming mods to be fairly nice.

Soiled erection

Yay, a fellow swede laughed at the crappy joke! :wink:

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

While I hesitate to placing "Looking forward to" and "Oblivion" in the same sentence, I have to say the stealth system shows potential and I would definetely like to play with it. Hopefully, the rest of the game, in particular the combat, the dialogue and overal roleplaying is just as expanded although I'm doubtful.

 

[Twinfalls]

Damn Twinfalls, are you really getting this upset about a GAME?

No.

It's not Oblivion per se. The point here is larger - it's not even about games. It's this idiotic idea that where you have something in decline, like RPGs, and you have one tiny place in one tiny corner of the net where people who can see through the bullshit are not afraid to say what they think, they must somehow be shouted down. And it's the use of euphemisms like 'balance' and 'middle ground'. That really irks me. You're not allowed to have passionate views on anything, especially if they are passionately critical, because you ought to get back in the 'middle ground'.

Look at the response to the 'year in review' Codex article. The major response, if people had any fucking brains left, should be a 21 gun salute, people ought to be standing up an cheering that at least someone is saying something different. Instead it's mainly 'Waaa, those Codex guys should shut up how dare they say bad things about the game industry', or 'um, yeah, it's a bit extreme, but um, like, please don't kill me, but a little bit of what they say is actually, you know, sort of like a bit right, ah, but don't get me wrong, they're still bad'.

 

[Balor]

Well, I'm obvously looking to Oblivion, but more to it's CS then the game itself.
I have GREAT doubts that I'll be playing it a lot. CS do show a lot of promice for me, though. I wish it would be more modder-friendly this time, but I have no less doubts about that one, too.

 

[galsiah]

And it's the use of euphemisms like 'balance' and 'middle ground'. That really irks me. You're not allowed to have passionate views on anything, especially if they are passionately critical, because you ought to get back in the 'middle ground'.

There are two different issues here though Twinfalls:

(1) What's wrong with (some) current RPGs, and How RPGs should be.
Get as passionate and extreme as you like on this. I'll agree with you most of the way.

(2) What companies like Bethesda can / should be doing about this.
It's all very well to say "RPGs should be like this...", but it doesn't make sense to say "Bethesda should make RPGs like this..." unless you've considered whether it's financially viable to do so.
Perhaps it is - perhaps they could stay truer to the RPG form and still compete financially. If you think so then fine - make that argument. However it's no good to say they're doing the "wrong" thing, if doing the "right" thing would lead to bankruptcy.

You can be as idealistic as you like about how RPGs should be in an ideal world, but to make a reasonable argument for how RPGs can continue in this world it is necessary to consider the problem from all sides. Financial considerations are important (sadly). They can't be ignored in a practical discussion of the future of RPGs.

I have no problem with that article, or with the codex's generally extreme attitude to how an RPG should be - someone needs to be saying these things. The minute you stop talking about games in an ideal sense though, and start to talk about game development / production, you need to adopt a more middle ground approach or you simply have no argument. By all means argue the case for the ideal RPG, but you must address the real world issues, and show how these can be overcome.

Maybe publishers are idiots, gamers today are idiots, and marketing people are idiots. If so, how can this be worked around in order to produce a great RPG? Unfortunately for the codex, the "Line them up and shoot them" approach isn't too practical.

 

[bryce777]

I'm looking forward to a lot of oblivion prefans eating crow.

 

[Lumpy]

Look at the response to the 'year in review' Codex article. The major response, if people had any fucking brains left, should be a 21 gun salute, people ought to be standing up an cheering that at least someone is saying something different. Instead it's mainly 'Waaa, those Codex guys should shut up how dare they say bad things about the game industry', or 'um, yeah, it's a bit extreme, but um, like, please don't kill me, but a little bit of what they say is actually, you know, sort of like a bit right, ah, but don't get me wrong, they're still bad'.

No, Twinfalls. People weren't upset that VD was saying something different. We really need something different in today's gaming press, where everyone is writing "OMG Oblivion is t3h good b3cause t3h devs said so!!!!" No preview I've seen so far has been objective and unbiased. The Codex article was no different. I wanted something different, but not like that. I would have preferred "Many things have been removed from Oblivion, but the devs claim that they improved other things. Whether this is true, or it will make up for the removed features, time will tell. Although we don't believe it, it's not completly impossible". Rather, the review was: "Bethesda removed things and they said that they added others but they were obviously lying because it couldn't be proven and it's therefore false, so Oblivion is Obvious Crap. DAGGERFALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
As I said before, fighting all the biased previews out there should be done by making an objective preview, and not by making a preview that's biased the other way.

And those guys at those forums were actually complaining about there being books in TES?