Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

[Alex]

I was talking to Excommunicator actually, Grunker. Sorry for the mix up.

 

[CappenVarra]

Actually, I don't think Kickstarter fatigue has anything to do with the current state of the project. When comparing Thorvalla to Wasteland 2 and Project: Eternity kickstarters, it is quite clear that the latter got a large number of pledges from people who would never post on the codex or show a similar amount of interest in "real" cRPGs (the definition of those being left as an exercise for the reader, of course).

Plainly said, W2 got a lot of interest from people who never played W1 but played Fallout, while P:E got the same from endless hordes of ex- or current Bioware lovers. The number of people who played those games or even just got into cRPGs during the late 90s cRPG "revival" is much greater than the number of people who were cRPG players earlier and are still around. Compare the number of Kickstarter pledgers who played and liked F1+2 and/or the Infinity Engine games to the number of people who played RoA and BaK, and you'll find a part of the explanation.

Then factor in the number of people who pledged to W2 because of F3, or who plegded to P:E because of DA:O - people who have (hopefully) no interest in the good sides of those projects, but pledged anyway as a part of a bandwagon, to have their voices heard (and trolled), etc. Just think about the Wasteland and Obsidian forums during the Kickstarters and you'll know who I'm talking about. While they are only good for their money, it is quite clear that such guys have no reason whatsoever to plegde to Thorvalla. Another chunk of "missing" funding accounted for.

And last but not least, both of those successful Kickstarters asking for a similar amount of money had some serious hype machines pumping them up - Fargo seemingly descended from heaven to bring the suffering masses (in the darkness and gnashing of teeth) a chance of the second coming, while Obsidian used their recent history and just the right amount of hinted-at Bioware-of-old necrophilia. And once that initial funding frenzy ceased, the early success of those projects became news in it self, resulting in subsequent wide reporting... Which they leveraged with updates and interviews and other silly marketing stuff.

And that "silly marketing stuff" is exactly what Thorvalla lacks. As already mentioned, some (slightly off-target, but beneficial) initial hype about "the face of the Nameless One kickstarting a new game" or similar was needed to, well, kick-start the kickstarter - and then these same updates would have an audience to reach and some effect to keep the engine running... Instead of just a dedicated niche that is pretty much already numbered. I mean, when you get so few pledges at the special $15 level, you can be sure your project doesn't have a very wide appeal. And without such "sell-out" wide appeal, $1 million is but a dream...

Damn it, I want a new cRPG inspired by RoA and BaK, and I pledged purely based on that - but a kickstarter (practically) without marketing will go about as far a post-apocalyptic car without gas

 

[Charles-cgr]

I like the new viking lady pic. It has that 80-s Sword&Sorcery vibe that I have a soft spot for. I hope they come up with more stuff like that.

The Kickstarter is looking better and better. Now they need to find a way to get exposure. The main problem is that nobody knows about their project.

Unfortunately, they aren't even mentionned in the last RPS Kickstarter Katchup, and that is saying a lot.

 

[St. Toxic]

Damn it, I want a new cRPG inspired by RoA and BaK, and I pledged purely based on that - but a kickstarter (practically) without marketing will go about as far a post-apocalyptic car without gas

At least for the kind of money they're asking.

 

[Charles-cgr]

With daily updates like these, perhaps they can get some journalists to change their minds and turn the tide.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/g3studios/thorvalla-an-rpg-by-guido-henkel/posts/356552

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

^ that is basically a large gif...they'll need something MIND BLOWING to even make it half wayto a million dollars.

face it, this project isn't even leaving dry dock.

 

[Charles-cgr]

^ that is basically a large gif...they'll need something MIND BLOWING to even make it half wayto a million dollars.

face it, this project isn't even leaving dry dock.

Uphill battles have been won before. At least they're not giving up. And if they put up a good fight now, they'll have that many more backers on take 2, if it turns out they decide to give it a try after all.

 

[Moribund]

^ that is basically a large gif...they'll need something MIND BLOWING to even make it half wayto a million dollars.

face it, this project isn't even leaving dry dock.

Uphill battles have been won before. At least they're not giving up. And if they put up a good fight now, they'll have that many more backers on take 2, if it turns out they decide to give it a try after all.

But it's just that no one cares about RoA or Guido, it seems. I don't think there's any marketing they could do. It can't drop a name like BG or Fallout to get console gamers on board and codexers aren't going to give them a million.

Especially since obviously most of them are raging because there's not enough obvious stuff to see.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

"Uphill battles have been won before. At least they're not giving up. And if they put up a good fight now, they'll have that many more backers on take 2, if it turns out they decide to give it a try after all."


I hope so, really do...despite my skepticism about the art direction and distaste for the jrpg style "combat card" system *shudders*; I hate to see passion projects (at least that's what Guido claims, it surel doesn't show) fail this badly.

taking into account the last day donation frenzy, I'd say this project MAY reach 200k - if its lucky.

 

[Davaris]

Damn it, I want a new cRPG inspired by RoA and BaK, and I pledged purely based on that - but a kickstarter (practically) without marketing will go about as far a post-apocalyptic car without gas

At least for the kind of money they're asking.

From what I am seeing of the successful Kicktraq graphs, marketing starts years before Kickstarter was ever thought of. The guy should have made himself a household name in RPGs, before asking for as much as that.

 

[Hobbit Lord of Mordor_]

Unless they have some really huge marketing stunt they're just about to unleash, they're wasting everyone's time. It would be the biggest comeback in KS history

"Uphill battles have been won before. At least they're not giving up. And if they put up a good fight now, they'll have that many more backers on take 2, if it turns out they decide to give it a try after all."


I hope so, really do...despite my skepticism about the art direction and distaste for the jrpg style "combat card" system *shudders*; I hate to see passion projects (at least that's what Guido claims, it surel doesn't show) fail this badly.

taking into account the last day donation frenzy, I'd say this project MAY reach 200k - if its lucky.

In KS-world $200k is identical to $0. Just pointless

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

Unless they have some really huge marketing stunt they're just about to unleash, they're wasting everyone's time. It would be the biggest comeback in KS history

"Uphill battles have been won before. At least they're not giving up. And if they put up a good fight now, they'll have that many more backers on take 2, if it turns out they decide to give it a try after all."


I hope so, really do...despite my skepticism about the art direction and distaste for the jrpg style "combat card" system *shudders*; I hate to see passion projects (at least that's what Guido claims, it surel doesn't show) fail this badly.

taking into account the last day donation frenzy, I'd say this project MAY reach 200k - if its lucky.

In KS-world $200k is identical to $0. Just pointless

that's true...but at least it wouldn't be soul crushing, you know?

Guido can go back to making mobile games with his pride more or less in tact and not have to cry himself to sleep at night because he couldn't even break 5 figures when asking for 7.

 

[Hobbit Lord of Mordor_]

Also if he isn't actually a spoiled brat and does want to make a game it will mean trying again a year from now. The sooner he quits the less pathetic it will look, he can say this time he's serious

 

[PosledniKovboj]

He won't try again - that would imply he did something wrong the first time. God forbid!

 

[kaizoku]

The irony of this all is that Guido was the one that quit the AAA business because of the shitty attitude in the industry.
Then everyone who continued and adapted in the industry went to KS to ask for money.
Now, the guy who put his mouth where the money is, can't make it.

I do hope he starts another KS. But he should continue with this one until the last day, while putting out updates and working on the game.
That way he'll have more material for a better pitch.

 

[InspectorRumpole]

The Card-based combat is pretty unique. I don't understand why he didn't focus on that in his Kickstarter pitch.

 

[kaizoku]

I actually find the card combat a bad move on his side.

Not everyone likes that type of thing in their cRPGs. I'm not fond of the card concept at all.

Can't he implement the same system using point pools?

 

[Alex]

I actually find the card combat a bad move on his side.

Not everyone likes that type of thing in their cRPGs. I'm not fond of the card concept at all.

Can't he implement the same system using point pools?

Not sure what you mean by pools. You mean, like different resources you get throughout the fight and use to make different attacks? If so, it kind of breaks the idea of making a deck out of your moves, which seems to be really important to him.

 

[J1M]

You can't just go six months with no work. But maybe they can try again in 5 years or something, with a little prototype to show people exactly what he means.

Indies do it all the time. If he was actually serious about this project he should be willing to forgo an income for a year (using his savings from the last 20 years of working) to produce a game.

He's clearly not willing to make any sacrifices. Not even a few weekends to make a stellar pitch video. Not even a day to research what made other pitches successful.

 

[Moribund]

You can't just go six months with no work. But maybe they can try again in 5 years or something, with a little prototype to show people exactly what he means.

Indies do it all the time. If he was actually serious about this project he should be willing to forgo an income for a year (using his savings from the last 20 years of working) to produce a game.

He's clearly not willing to make any sacrifices. Not even a few weekends to make a stellar pitch video. Not even a day to research what made other pitches successful.

If you get 5% what you asked for it would be crazy to do that.

For a game studio it's illegal for you to work on another game while you use someone's funds to make a game for them, for obvious reasons.

But the real issue is not the pitch at all. Pitch is a LOT better than PE bullshit, and the substance is much more than WL 2. He will never get this much money without dropping big names and everyone saying otherwise is completely full of shit.

He could maybe rework it a year and get 200k. All that would do is pay the losses he incurred for doing it a year, total waste of time.

 

[J1M]

You can't just go six months with no work. But maybe they can try again in 5 years or something, with a little prototype to show people exactly what he means.

Indies do it all the time. If he was actually serious about this project he should be willing to forgo an income for a year (using his savings from the last 20 years of working) to produce a game.

He's clearly not willing to make any sacrifices. Not even a few weekends to make a stellar pitch video. Not even a day to research what made other pitches successful.

If you get 5% what you asked for it would be crazy to do that.

For a game studio it's illegal for you to work on another game while you use someone's funds to make a game for them, for obvious reasons.

But the real issue is not the pitch at all. Pitch is a LOT better than PE bullshit, and the substance is much more than WL 2. He will never get this much money without dropping big names and everyone saying otherwise is completely full of shit.

He could maybe rework it a year and get 200k. All that would do is pay the losses he incurred for doing it a year, total waste of time.

I don't care about what he has updated since the initial ask. It doesn't matter.

I knew from that first video exactly what Wasteland 2 was about and how it would play. I also knew it was something I wanted. Didn't know who Fargo was till I saw the video.

I knew exactly what FTL was from the first pitch video and that I wanted it. Made by two nobodies.

I knew that P:E would be Baldur's Gate 3 from the first pitch video and I wanted it, not because it was BG3, but because it was a chance for a good studio to escape the yoke of publishers who fucked them over on things like F:NV. You are right that Obsidian didn't include many details. But I've played several recent games made by them so I know they will make something I like.

From the Thorvalla pitch I knew that I wanted it to fail. First 2 minutes are a waste of my time talking about story bullshit I don't care about because I'm not invested yet. Telling me it will have dragons and that you need more money for what appears to be a very small project compared to P:E or W2, but not explaining why? Really? You have nothing to show, at all?

It's not about star power. Much of the celebrity that fuels kickstarters is from a quickly funded kickstarter, which comes from pitching something that people want with enthusiasm in a clear way.

 

[Morkar Left]

I don't care about what he has updated since the initial ask. It doesn't matter.

That's rationality right here.

I knew from that first video exactly what Wasteland 2 was about and how it would play.

How? They didn't even know the point of view they are going with and the video was about bad publishers and not about the game.

I knew exactly what FTL was from the first pitch video and that I wanted it. Made by two nobodies.

Granted, they had already something to show of. But I doubt that they needed to rely on kickstarter to finish the game. It was a good mrketing tool and they made more money this way instead of just releasing it. I don't blame them for this.

I knew that P:E would be Baldur's Gate 3 from the first pitch video...

And the next Planescape and the next Icewind Dale, too. Just a lot better because it will combine everything. It's gonna be awesome!!!! Sorry, but pure marketing speak.

and I wanted it, not because it was BG3, but because it was a chance for a good studio to escape the yoke of publishers who fucked them over on things like F:NV.

That's not rational and has nothing to do with the quality of their kickstarter campaign. It's all emotional because you feel strongly for the studio.

You are right that Obsidian didn't include many details. But I've played several recent games made by them so I know they will make something I like.

Guido had his own studio for years in which he developed highly complex rpg games. Not only as a designer but with the responsibility of managing everything. He made in this time three unique rpgs not to mention all the games he developed before. If you look at the games produced you can see significant improvements from game to game with each successor with high quality games at the end (RoA 1-3 and Torment).

From the Thorvalla pitch I knew that I wanted it to fail. First 2 minutes are a waste of my time talking about story bullshit I don't care about because I'm not invested yet. Telling me it will have dragons and that you need more money for what appears to be a very small project compared to P:E or W2, but not explaining why? Really? You have nothing to show, at all?

What makes you think the game will be smaller in size?

It's not about star power. Much of the celebrity that fuels kickstarters is from a quickly funded kickstarter, which comes from pitching something that people want with enthusiasm in a clear way.

Which would prove my suspicion that kickstarter relies more on marketing than actual rationality if the developers are competent to deliver.

 

[tuluse]

It's not about star power. Much of the celebrity that fuels kickstarters is from a quickly funded kickstarter, which comes from pitching something that people want with enthusiasm in a clear way.

Which would prove my suspicion that kickstarter relies more on marketing than actual rationality if the developers are competent to deliver.

You might be right about this. In fact, you probably are. That's how the world works; you have to convince people to give you money.

However, none of that matters because from the initial Thorvalla pitch, using either marketing sense or rational thought would lead you to conclude that Guido does not know what he's doing.

 

[Morkar Left]

People are bitching that a fantasy culture isn't exactly like the vikings of the real world? :D
You guys must have despised RoA because Thorwaler wear horned helmets all the time...

Yes, and for my taste it's too much Thorval from 'The Black Eye'/Arkania (Das Schwarze Auge) and too little unique characteristics that should come with a new RPG world. Guido demonstrated with his recent books that he is able to create a whole world by his own - so I am little disappointed that he chose to go this way.

And just for the protocol: I really like the ideas regarding the gameplay which Guido has revealed so far (especially the classes and the party member recruiting approach). Sure, the card thing definitely needs clarification asap.

Personally it was pretty clear for me that he comes up with a more traditional fantasy world when you keep in mind what games he developed with his own studio Attic. And that's what I want him to do; a down to earth traditional fantasy setting which has a very fleshed out world and complex game mechanics. I think that's what he can do best and which I'm looking forward to the most for new crpg.

 

[Moribund]

You can't just go six months with no work. But maybe they can try again in 5 years or something, with a little prototype to show people exactly what he means.

Indies do it all the time. If he was actually serious about this project he should be willing to forgo an income for a year (using his savings from the last 20 years of working) to produce a game.

He's clearly not willing to make any sacrifices. Not even a few weekends to make a stellar pitch video. Not even a day to research what made other pitches successful.

If you get 5% what you asked for it would be crazy to do that.

For a game studio it's illegal for you to work on another game while you use someone's funds to make a game for them, for obvious reasons.

But the real issue is not the pitch at all. Pitch is a LOT better than PE bullshit, and the substance is much more than WL 2. He will never get this much money without dropping big names and everyone saying otherwise is completely full of shit.

He could maybe rework it a year and get 200k. All that would do is pay the losses he incurred for doing it a year, total waste of time.

I don't care about what he has updated since the initial ask. It doesn't matter.

I knew from that first video exactly what Wasteland 2 was about and how it would play. I also knew it was something I wanted. Didn't know who Fargo was till I saw the video.

I knew exactly what FTL was from the first pitch video and that I wanted it. Made by two nobodies.

I knew that P:E would be Baldur's Gate 3 from the first pitch video and I wanted it, not because it was BG3, but because it was a chance for a good studio to escape the yoke of publishers who fucked them over on things like F:NV. You are right that Obsidian didn't include many details. But I've played several recent games made by them so I know they will make something I like.

From the Thorvalla pitch I knew that I wanted it to fail. First 2 minutes are a waste of my time talking about story bullshit I don't care about because I'm not invested yet. Telling me it will have dragons and that you need more money for what appears to be a very small project compared to P:E or W2, but not explaining why? Really? You have nothing to show, at all?

It's not about star power. Much of the celebrity that fuels kickstarters is from a quickly funded kickstarter, which comes from pitching something that people want with enthusiasm in a clear way.

In other words, you are not emotionally engaged enough by Thorvalla. Well, wasting time "making more to show" won't change that.