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Information Thorvalla Kickstarter goes online

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HobGoblin42

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People are bitching that a fantasy culture isn't exactly like the vikings of the real world? :D
You guys must have despised RoA because Thorwaler wear horned helmets all the time...
Yes, and for my taste it's too much Thorval from 'The Black Eye'/Arkania (Das Schwarze Auge) and too little unique characteristics that should come with a new RPG world. Guido demonstrated with his recent books that he is able to create a whole world by his own - so I am little disappointed that he chose to go this way.

And just for the protocol: I really like the ideas regarding the gameplay which Guido has revealed so far (especially the classes and the party member recruiting approach). Sure, the card thing definitely needs clarification asap.
 
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I didn't play Diablo III yet (and I probably never will), but some of their concept artworks are pretty nice. I think that's how a female (barbarian) warrior should look like, adding some armor would make a nice viking warrior girl.
diii-female-barbarian.jpg
...but why does she have hooves for feet?
 
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HobGoblin42

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I didn't play Diablo III yet (and I probably never will), but some of their concept artworks are pretty nice. I think that's how a female (barbarian) warrior should look like, adding some armor would make a nice viking warrior girl.
...but why does she have hooves for feet?

Because Barbarians/Savages are worshipping strong animals like bulls, lions, etc.. That's why she tried to make shoes that look like hooves (in fact you can easily notice that those are not real hooves). And those details make a character concept believable and wrong details killed the whole thing (as happened in the female viking warrior of Thorvalla).
Good Game Designers are very careful and pendantic with those details.
 
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Davaris

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I didn't play Diablo III yet (and I probably never will), but some of their concept artworks are pretty nice. I think that's how a female (barbarian) warrior should look like, adding some armor would make a nice viking warrior girl.
diii-female-barbarian.jpg


Very good picture. Do you know who the artist is?
 

Zed

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it's funny people comment on the horned helm...
as if vikings would ever use a metal sword and shield like that, or boob-plate...
it's high fantasy inspired by hollywood viking-themes. it's okay to use horned helmets - it drives the viking point home :D
 

Haba

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I didn't play Diablo III yet (and I probably never will), but some of their concept artworks are pretty nice. I think that's how a female (barbarian) warrior should look like, adding some armor would make a nice viking warrior girl.

If one goes with the bare naked babes line, the women should be at least scarred from head to toe.
 

Alex

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I don't know why so many of you are complaining that there won't be a new kickstarter. I mean, if Mr. Henkel says he won't try again, I imagine that he just won't have another opportunity. Probably his current team is disbanding, or he will need to go after other contracts to do something else. Getting annoyed by this, on the other hand, is immature. Good or bad, Guido places the fate of this project squarely on the hands of the backers. If people care about his ideas, they will back it, and it will succeed. If they don't, it will fall through and that is that. I would much rather see this succeed, so I understand how this situation can be infuriating. But from all the comments about timing and not going to start again, I can understand why he did it like he did. Now, either we all do what we can to bring light and attention to this project, or we let it die. It is up to each one to decide what he thinks is worth doing.
 

Grunker

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I just watched Fargo's talk at Unite 2012 yesterday again. It's incredible how many thoughts this man put into his project and the Kickstarter before he launched compared to Henkel. What a fucking shame.

If people care about his ideas, they will back it, and it will succeed.

What an odd statement. Do seriously believe the core of the idea is more moving that the quality of the Kickstarter?
 

Crooked Bee

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I just watched Fargo's talk at Unite 2012 yesterday again. It's incredible how many thoughts this man put into his project and the Kickstarter before he launched compared to Henkel. What a fucking shame.

Well, Fargo had been trying to make a sequel to Wasteland for many years before he launched the Kickstarter campaign. He had even hired Jason Anderson for that, but it didn't pan out at the time. Still, he had a clear picture of what he wanted to do and how he wanted to make it happen.

Henkel, on the other hand... I'm sure he's also long wanted to do another RoA - after all, it's his most famous game. It's just that it doesn't feel like he's put a lot of thought into it. For whatever reason. Perhaps he's just not as good as Fargo at communicating things, perhaps he assumed Kickstarter is easy money... I dunno.
 
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Sacred_Path

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Kickstarter fatigue is the only sensible explanation.

It has almost the same target group as PE, and this audience has been howling like mad wolves for years for lack of food. Therefore putting the blame on a weak pitch just doesn't make sense. That doesn't explain why there aren't more people who put down 15$ w/o risk. By all means this tier should almost be sold out. The reason must be that this audience has already backed a number of projects.

Blaming Guido for not making better use of his industry contacts and the gaming press also fall flat. Everyone who's interested in CRPGs has by now heard of Thorvalla, p. sure of that. He hasn't reached the Call of Doody crowd maybe, but those certainly weren't the ones who backed Obsidian to make a game "like Baldur's Gate!! And Icewind Dale!!!1".
 

Grunker

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I'm pretty sure people didn't howl for a Wasteland sequal. Or for Dead State, for that matter (which made 400,000). Kickstarter fatigue might be a factor (it's theoretical) but there's no denying the weak pitch.
 
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Sacred_Path

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I'm pretty sure people didn't howl for a Wasteland sequal.

You haven't seen any posts lamenting the lack of skill driven party based RPGs?

I'm not denying that it's a weak pitch, I'm contesting that it's the reason for its possible failiure.
 

Grunker

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I'm pretty sure people didn't howl for a Wasteland sequal.

You haven't seen any posts lamenting the lack of skill driven party based RPGs?

Here? Yes. In general? Hell naw.

I'm not denying that it's a weak pitch, I'm contesting that it's the reason for its possible failiure.

And I'm saying most of the reasons are speculation. Had he made a strong pitch and failed well, then the discussion would be different.
 

tuluse

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Everyone who's interested in CRPGs has by now heard of Thorvalla, p. sure of that
You might be sure, but you'd be wrong.

Not even everyone who's interested in CRPGs heard of P:E and that got tons of press. I know this because I was talking to family members this Thanksgiving who are interested and they hadn't heard of it. Some hadn't even heard of kickstarter.
 
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Sacred_Path

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You haven't seen any posts lamenting the lack of skill driven party based RPGs?

Here? Yes. In general? Hell naw.

But that's the core audience, at least as far as Thorvalla is concerned. There's no way that with its kinda clichéd setting (dragons and vikings, oh my) and TB combat it could attract non-Rpg fanatics. No fancy trailer would have changed that.

Everyone who's interested in CRPGs has by now heard of Thorvalla, p. sure of that
You might be sure, but you'd be wrong.

Not even everyone who's interested in CRPGs heard of P:E and that got tons of press. I know this because I was talking to family members this Thanksgiving who are interested and they hadn't heard of it. Some hadn't even heard of kickstarter.

There are people who are hardcore CRPG players but don't research them on the net? I didn't expect that. I think I heard about kickstarter by reading about PE.
 
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I don't know why so many of you are complaining that there won't be a new kickstarter. I mean, if Mr. Henkel says he won't try again, I imagine that he just won't have another opportunity. Probably his current team is disbanding, or he will need to go after other contracts to do something else. Getting annoyed by this, on the other hand, is immature. Good or bad, Guido places the fate of this project squarely on the hands of the backers. If people care about his ideas, they will back it, and it will succeed. If they don't, it will fall through and that is that. I would much rather see this succeed, so I understand how this situation can be infuriating. But from all the comments about timing and not going to start again, I can understand why he did it like he did. Now, either we all do what we can to bring light and attention to this project, or we let it die. It is up to each one to decide what he thinks is worth doing.

I generally agree with a lot of what you say but not this. You are treating this as if the person running the project is completely irrelevant. The person running the pitch is the person who will probably be running the development of the game and probably running the finances as well. It simply doesn't inspire confidence. It indicates someone who doesn't have the state of mind to get through what will probably be a highly challenging and difficult process full of unforeseeable problems

"Placing the fate of the project squarely on the backers" is a massive copout. You don't get to simply suggest an idea and then place it in the hands of someone else FFS. This project could have succeeded with better planning and preparation. They didn't pull out any tricks like the other kickstarters and didn't meet the level of content to satisfy most people or differentiate the project sufficiently from others. That's their goddamn responsibility if they want to make it
 

tuluse

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You might be sure, but you'd be wrong.

Not even everyone who's interested in CRPGs heard of P:E and that got tons of press. I know this because I was talking to family members this Thanksgiving who are interested and they hadn't heard of it. Some hadn't even heard of kickstarter.

There are people who are hardcore CRPG players but don't research them on the net? I didn't expect that. I think I heard about kickstarter by reading about PE.
Well now you've changed the target from people who are interested in CRPGs to hardcore players.

I have a cousin who is as big of a BG2 fan as there is. He said he wished he heard about P:E when the kickstarter was running, and is planning on donating through paypal now. However, he didn't hear about it until I told him.

He either doesn't have the time or inclination to research what's going on with CRPGs. Hell, after ME and DA from Bioware, I almost gave up on CRPGs ever being good again and my interest waned a lot until the Wasteland 2 kickstarter.
 

Grunker

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You're arguing in circles Sacred_Path. First Wasteland became popular because people craved skill-based party-games, now Thorvalla can't because of it.
 

majestik12

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I like the new viking lady pic. It has that 80-s Sword&Sorcery vibe that I have a soft spot for. I hope they come up with more stuff like that.

The Kickstarter is looking better and better. Now they need to find a way to get exposure. The main problem is that nobody knows about their project.
 
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Sacred_Path

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Well now you've changed the target from people who are interested in CRPGs to hardcore players.

I have a cousin who is as big of a BG2 fan as there is. He said he wished he heard about P:E when the kickstarter was running, and is planning on donating through paypal now. However, he didn't hear about it until I told him.

He either doesn't have the time or inclination to research what's going on with CRPGs. Hell, after ME and DA from Bioware, I almost gave up on CRPGs ever being good again and my interest waned a lot until the Wasteland 2 kickstarter.

I think hardcore RPG players is the better term here since the RoA hook of Thorvalla seems to attract fewer people than the BG hook of PE. For years there has been a small but pretty vocal number of people craving oldschool games and acting mad because they were ignored as a target group. After the successes of Wasteland 2 and PE I thought they had proven there are enough of them to make a difference. Now with the lackluster performance of Thorvalla's KS it seems doubtful again. To me the most obvious explanation is that the audience is there, maybe slightly smaller than for PE, but it exists. They just don't pledge for Thorvalla. It's legit to think that they are satisfied with what they got out of KS so far and don't crave more.
 

Alex

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My point was that you assume he is doing this out of pettiness, while I assume he is doing it out of necessity. As far as I understand, here is what I think happened:

First, they could either release this kickstarter now or further on next year. I don't really understand why releasing a kickstarter during Christmas would be a bad idea, but let's assume that is true for the sake of the argument. If they waited, they could have worked on the pitch, made their ideas more throughly explained and think things through some more. Make better rewards for different support levels and get in contact with a few gaming sites like everyone in this thread said they should have. This is so obvious, I assume the reason they didn't is because they couldn't. Maybe they don't have enough money to keep their current set up running, or maybe some other thing I have no idea about (I mean, it is none of my business what problems he may be having or not).

Well, if his team is separating soon if this fails, or won't be able to keep working on whatever they want (maybe they will sign a long contract with a publisher or whatever?), then it is out of his hands relaunching the kickstarter. He wouldn't have much more to show than he has now in a week or two and more than that might be too late. Compounding with all this, he seemed reluctant on advertising features he wasn't so sure about yet. The whole card game thing, which he seems to have a good grasp of in his mind, but is probably untested. Also, I think he hasn't thought of it through as much as he would like. I am hoping he still wants to make the results of each attack, defense and action somewhat real, instead of completely abstract, and bridging systems like this is a tall order. So he withheld a lot of information from the original pitch. I agree, this was a silly move, after all, without much information, it is completely impossible to know what kind of game this wanted to be. Even PE and Wasteland 2 managed to give you an idea by mentioning their antecessors, but it was clear from the get go this wouldn't just be a straight Realms of Arkania game. But still, if I was in that kind of situation, where my two options are either going for broke or giving up completely, I think I would have done the same as Mr. Henkel.

Of course, I may be completely wrong here. Maybe Guido was really just lazy. I don't know that for sure, but I usually try to imagine the best of other people. So, assuming this is really the problem, we have each to decide what to do ourselves. I think RoA was such a great game that I will gladly pledge to this kickstarter, and I will try to convince others too. If you didn't, or if you think Guido is being malicious here (for whatever reason), then sure, you should withhold. I just don't think that is the case.
 

Moribund

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You can't just go six months with no work. But maybe they can try again in 5 years or something, with a little prototype to show people exactly what he means.
 

tuluse

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I don't think it was laziness, I think it was a misunderstanding of how kickstarter works and how to communicate with fans.

However, if the rest of your post is true, that doesn't inspire confidence that they can actually make this game.
 

Grunker

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My point was that you assume he is doing this out of pettiness

If you're talking to me, then no. I'm assuming he did it out of ignorance.
 

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