Thursday is finally here.

[Cowboy Moment]

I'm genuinely surprised myself.

It seems you just cut out to much fluff. Leaving the filler out is great, but in doing so you overexposed the mechanical aspects of the game, which now look to straightforward and simple. Most rpgs when thoroughly analyzed will be exposed as relatively simple games. AoD is probably more complex than any part of the holy trinity, but the mechanics are not obfuscated enough. Basically you should add more interactive but mechanically pointless stuff.

Totally this. If you remove the combat from Fallout, you're basically left with a bunch of talking and running around, and the occasional skill-check for something different. The problem with AoD is that, while the core mechanics are not that different, it ends up feeling like a railroaded text adventure - there's not much difference from using your Science skill on a computer in order to read Richard Grey's logs, and getting a dialogue prompt asking you whether you want to use your Science skill on the computer. The former just maintains the illusion of interactivity, and adds some flavor text here and there from using your skills on random stuff. Similarly, being teleported from quest objective to quest objective destroys any illusion of freedom the player might have.

I understand how you might reason "Running from objective to objective just wastes the player's time for no reason; let's remove it.". I think that's wrong. I would even argue against fast-travel inside towns. Running around allows the player to visually absorb the world you've built. Functionally, they can run into one of your little vignettes, but even if they don't, they'll keep seeing things that characterize your world just as well as all the text descriptions. Seeing the crucified bodies in front of the IG Barracks tells you as much about them as the exposition through dialogue. Or how their compound is a proper, heavily guarded fortress with stone walls, while Antidas lives in what's basically a run-down palace surrounded by a makeshift palisade. But nobody becomes familiar with an environment after only seeing it once or twice. Especially if they're being dragged around by dialogue-teleportation and having their gear switched around - seriously, that needs to go, it's annoying as hell for no good reason.

So anyway, my advice would be to:

1. Give the player as much freedom as you can. I'm pretty sure I've seen a screenshot of Antidas' throne room, so why can't the player walk around it a bit? (If you can, and I simply haven't found a way, then disregard this) During the ambush in the alley, allow the player to pass a PE or streetwise check in order to anticipate it and get better positioning and initiative. My first instinct in that fight was to net the attacker who hasn't engaged yet, but the initial positioning, and having to waste AP on equipping the net which the game arbitrarily unequipped, made this impossible. It's little things like this that add up to the feeling of not having any agency.

2. Add a bunch of fluff. Fluff dialogue that does nothing, but makes some sense for the character. Having a Cha check in order to hear Dellar's story was great, should be more of that on the major characters. Also add "interactive" fluff to the gameworld. Going back to the crucified people, allow the player to click on one and read a short description; then, if the player passes a skill/stat check, they can make an additional observation. Or, in Linos' office, one could click on his desk, and with high enough trading/etiquette, get a rough idea of what the documents there do. You can even give the player like 1 SP for succeeding in this. The point is, it should be something optional, and not thrown in their face the moment they enter an area.

3. As a rule of thumb, remove the teleportation wherever it's not absolutely needed.

By the way, is every single option always visible in dialogue, regardless of your skill values? Or do some of them not even show up if you're too low?

 

[Commissar Draco]

We removed it a few days before the release since people were going nuts with crafting. We'll tweak it in a patch.

Loled after being informed that Merchant Guilda keep Iron and Steel under the roof and founding only cheap bronze. So the BroRider will live as I hope there will be side quests to get money and steel in other way in full game.

You can join one House and one guild.

You should keep one Guild/House limit for greater repleyability and internal logic... I doubt person seen making errands for another group would be allowed to live.... Not in Theron.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Oh, I should have compared a isometric TB RPG to a first-person RT RPG like Gothic?

How is the difference between RT and TB significant when it comes to environment interaction?

Fallout had exactly one environmental interaction in the whole game, the radscorpion cave unless you want to count the bomb as a second one

Not to mention the countless others when running around trying to use repair or science on various shit that you keep finding everywhere? (more relevant in FO2 as far as I remember)

Plus the whole game was about exploration. Teron definitely isn't.

You know why Teron isn't about exploration? I'll tell you why, and it ties in directly with the non-existent environments.

When you visit any location, you are automatically on the lookout for anything out of the ordinary. If I run around Castle Galava in Nox and find a locked door, I KNOW that this is a puzzle here, and the door can be opened by, for example, taking control over a wolf that I can see through the window. You keep running around, looking for stuff to check out, yes, even fucking barrels and hidden stashes (hidden stashes are bad and OCD?), as well as try to keep analysing the whole map for any quirks that could be usable objects. This is called exploring a city.

And then you have Teron. After running around for 5 fucking minutes, realising that all doors are locked unless there's a hueg 'HEALER!!!!!" sign in front of them, not being able to even talk with anyone, not even being able to LOOK at a fucking stack of chests in a house of a merchant that just lured you into a trap you simply say 'oh fuck this shit' and don't bother, instead hoppin' on the jolly good old rails going from quest to quest. You think any other city in AoD will be about exploration if Teron isn't in such a retardedly glaring manner? Think again.

And again, in 99% of CRPGS, environmental interaction means looting barrels and houses.

Herpderp and in 99% of CRPGS NPC interaction is romancing

All the other stuff you gave examples of could be integrated into the text adventures

A shame that they aren't, huh?

 

[Vault Dweller]

And again, in 99% of CRPGS, environmental interaction means looting barrels and houses.

That's the reason why we cut it.

All the other stuff you gave examples of could be integrated into the text adventures - that there aren't suitable examples in the demo is a valid complaint.

There are plenty of interaction in the ruins.

So anyway, my advice would be to:

Thanks. We'll consider it.

By the way, is every single option always visible in dialogue, regardless of your skill values? Or do some of them not even show up if you're too low?

Many options have 'on appear' check, which checks stats, skills, items in the inventory, conversations, and quest outcomes.

For example, if you made a deal with Cado, you'll have another option to convince Mercato in MG3.

 

[JarlFrank]

One little issue I have with the dialogue textbox on widescreen resolutions:
The text stretching from one end of the screen to the other makes for looong lines which is slightly tedious to read. Also I'd prefer the text box to be more opaque - maybe add an option to adjust the opaqueness/transparency of the dialogue box to the options screen.

Also, I am missing control options such as screen scrolling speed which I find a little too fast.

 

[circ]

Oh fucking awesome. I ignored the thief chick ambush, went for palace and did the usual crit strike my way in for kill count. Flavius was a tough bitch, few reloads later I got to another guard. SO MUCH FOR LOOTING ALL THAT SWEET SHIT. Disguise didn't work. RELOAD. Crit strike misses. FUCK. 2 points to spend, put them into crit strike so it's 47. CRIT STRIKE LAST GUARD AND I GET PRAETORIAN ARMOR TO KEEP. AWESOME.

I guess shit is in the bag now.

EDIT: OK. PEOPLE ARE DEAD. Took a few reloads, but with block at 56 I was half invulnerable. Had to take my helmet off and kill axe guy first. After that it was half a cakewalk.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Many options have 'on appear' check, which checks stats, skills, items in the inventory, conversations, and quest outcomes.

For example, if you made a deal with Cado, you'll have another option to convince Mercato in MG3.

Have you tried experimenting with making as many options visible as your game logic allows for? As in, a dumb brute would still get an [Int] option, it would just be shit. Or even, if the option requires an item, then show it, but make it unselectable? I'm wondering if it would help with the "I only have one/two choices in this situation" thing a bunch of people have complained about. I see nothing inherently bad about seeing a possibility that your particular character can't make use of.

 

[hiver]

I am a man of word:



..:p

Fun fucking awesome to the bone.



-edit-
quick! someone post it on RPS!

or, hmm... wait for their coming review?

-ah, ok, already done i see.

 

[Infinitron]

Many options have 'on appear' check, which checks stats, skills, items in the inventory, conversations, and quest outcomes.

For example, if you made a deal with Cado, you'll have another option to convince Mercato in MG3.

Have you tried experimenting with making as many options visible as your game logic allows for? As in, a dumb brute would still get an [Int] option, it would just be shit. Or even, if the option requires an item, then show it, but make it unselectable? I'm wondering if it would help with the "I only have one/two choices in this situation" thing a bunch of people have complained about. I see nothing inherently bad about seeing a possibility that your particular character can't make use of.

Wouldn't this amount to the game basically providing spoilers for its own replayability?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I see nothing inherently bad about seeing a possibility that your particular character can't make use of.

At the same time it's always nice to discover new options and paths (that you were completely unaware of) even after you beat the game several times.

 

[hiver]

I agree, and maybe seeing just some of them pop up while using different builds is enough of a hint?

I would recommend just looking at possibility of some NPCs mentioning that specific skills might have a beneficial effect, but in a discrete ways of course.
Although that may be seen as a bit too much... - something like assassin master mentioning you should improve your critical strike, or just noting its lacking, a merchant guild boss saying being smart in the ways of streets would be a good skill to have.... etc...
Just like the smith mentioned crafting and schematics...

Nothing too direct as my examples may seem.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

It would be a spoiler for further replays, but a relatively insignificant one, imo. You only get to see a possible way of dealing with things, not how the situation would continue to develop or the long-term consequences of that choice. In any case, I think the game needs a way to take the edge off "this is the only way you can proceed" situations. Being more explicit about alternatives is the simplest way of making this happen, that I can think of.

 

[circ]

Ok, mercenary kind of locks himself in in the demo. I intimidated the bandit camp, not really tough with like 19 kills. I don't think I could have persuaded them to attack the mine like with my merchant. Shame about the 1k gold too that would have given me, and easily. Anyway, it's just the mine left, and well even with juiced up armor and good skills, 3 warriors with excellent armor +2 ranged characters hitting you, although getting deflected most of the time, isn't doable. Specially when said ranged guys knock you down. Well there's one assassin quest to go, the raid on something, guess I shouldn't have much probs with that and that should be demo over.

Paid the fare for some beggars at the gate as someone mentioned them, but can't find them again. Oh well.

Anyone with high crafting find out what happens in the cellar?

 

[JarlFrank]

Also, I think what AoD mostly resembles - and what some people like Darth Roxor don't like about it - is a CYOA book with combat and stats. The way dialogues (or "text adventures") pop up whenever you enter a location, instead of the game just letting you click on everything yourself in order to check it out, can be irritating. Personally I like AoD's style, but was irritated by how often the game would pop into a "dialogue" window as soon as I enter a place. For example the tower full of squatters. Why do a popup dialogue/text adventure, if you could just let the player check out that hatch by clicking on it?

It does feel a little like making sure the player doesn't miss any of the awesome content. I might have overlooked that hatch if there hadn't been a popup dialogue that showed me all the interesting choices. Same with the wall in the basement.

 

[Infinitron]

AoD's spiritual ancestor?

 

[Silellak]

Staying outside and head-shotting the two guards outside may have been the best choice, if not for the dumb teleport into melee range. If my PC is a bowman, and the archers up top are distracted by the meatshields storming the tower, he shouldn't walk right next to the soldiers. There should at the very least be an option to not charge right next to them.

This is a solid point, I think. Is something like this under consideration? If the game is going to teleport me into combat then - if it's feasible for the situation - I should have the ability to choose where I start the combat, whether it's actually selecting the specific square, or at least deciding close/medium/far distance from attackers. I think, for example, that the bandit quest would be more interesting if someone with higher perception/sneak had the ability to come in from another part of the fort. In fact, since one of the solutions to that question is to have high Perception and explain the best way to assault the place...it seems like my character should be able to take advantage of that information, too.

To that that a step further - it seems weird that the game lets me climb walls in SOME places but not ALL places - like I can wait until night to sneak into the Outpost, but not the Bandit Camp. I realize you can't account for every single possible player action, but when those two quests are given at the same time, then the juxtaposition makes it more apparent. Is there any in-game reason, for example, that I couldn't sneak into the Bandit Camp at night, try and slit the throats of whoever is on guard duty, and pick the lock of the prisoner? That seems fairly similar to the sneaky-non-combat solution to the Outpost.

 

[Grunker]

Vault Dweller: I'll give you one thing... lots of people complaining that a cat isn't a dog ITT.

I.e. lots of folks complaining that you didn't make their particular favourite type of RPG. I guess AoD was hyped enough that some people ignored your features-list and hoped for their particular brand of RPG. I mean, why exactly, Darth Roxor, is explorative interactivity an essential part of RPGs? I get that it's what YOU love, and that's fine, but it's hardly fair to judge AoD based on what IT IS NOT. Judge it as WHAT IT IS. Complain about the combat if it doesn't achieve what it tries to in a good way, but complaining about about lack of world interactivity is like saying JESUS CHRIST THIS CAT IS NOT A DOG WHY IS IT NOT A DOG?!?

I have lots of criticism when it comes to AoD, especially about the combat so far, but I'm not angry that it isn't Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Temple of Elemental Evil or Knights of the Chalice, some of my personal favourites, because it's quite obvious AoD isn't that type of game.

If you don't like cats and would rather have a dog, well, it sucks that you thought AoD would be a dog. Doesn't mean there's any merit in complaining that it isn't though.

Seriously.

 

[bminorkey]

Very nice game, liked it quite a bit. Here's one bug I encountered:

Spoiler

Playing a grifter, I did the merchant's guild plot and killed the guard commander, then got Mercato (sp?) to join the noblemen house. Ending the demo I started fighting the bandits which ambush you. Midcombat I tried spending my newly acquired stat points, and the window opened and let me do so, but I could not close it and the game went unresponsive.

Another small complaint I have is that sometimes clicking a dialogue option somehow clicks the next one as well. You should lock the dialogue tree for like half a second to prevent this.

Also, one minor suggestion, I'd appreciate some more detailed directions from some of the NPCs. I had to guess where to continue a quest a couple of times (for example with the refugees), got a little annoying.

Incidentally, I did like the teleporting. I hate walking around when the location does not bring me instant gratification has nothing of note to offer me.

 

[Darth Roxor]

but it's hardly fair to judge AoD based on what IT IS NOT. Judge it as WHAT IT IS..

Ok. The writing is banal shit boring and the combat sucks in this storybased RPG. Is that fine enough? Also, I happened to mention that previously.

Also, I have all the right in the fucking world to say that I'm bothered by no interaction here since it was supposed to be a Falloutlike, as far as I can tell, and it doesn't quite deliver on that front. Plus, if I play a shooter and see a 2 weapon limit and popamole tactics, I also have the right to complain about that (BUT OMG IT'S NOT THAT KIND OF SHOOTER). And I've mentioned at least twice that this whole deal is not really my cup of tea exactly because it's a glorified CYOA without those features that I like a lot (and those that I could like, like combat and writing, are crap), and it's really okay if there are those you like it, and it's really okay if there are those who want to release it as it is, so I don't get what is your problem.

But I'll be fucking damned if some cockrocking dumbfuck comes in and tells me that I should get back to Neverwinter Nights because it has exactly what I'm advocating. Stimulating discussion and all that.

 

[zeitgeist]

Vault Dweller: I'll give you one thing... lots of people complaining that a cat isn't a dog ITT.

I.e. lots of folks complaining that you didn't make their particular favourite type of RPG. I guess AoD was hyped enough that some people ignored your features-list. I mean, why exactly, Darth Roxor, is explorative interactivity an essential part of RPGs? I get that it's what YOU love, and that's fine, but it's hardly fair to judge AoD based on what IT IS NOT. Judge it as WHAT IT IS. Complain about the combat if it doesn't achieve what it tries to in a good way, but complaining about about lack of world interactivity is like saying JESUS CHRIST THIS CAT IS NOT A DOG WHY IS NOT A DOG?!?

If you don't like cats and would rather have a dog, well, it sucks that you thought AoD would be a dog. Doesn't mean there's any merit in complaining that it isn't though.

Seriously.

The game has a 3D world, yet no exploration and environmental interaction to speak of. The game has a CYOA dialogue/choice system, yet such a poor selection of choices (everything depends on stats/skills/build). The game has a turn-based combat system, yet no real tactical options (with party control).

Everything that the game actually is serves only as a reminder of what the game could've been, but isn't.

 

[Silellak]

The game has a 3D world, yet no exploration and environmental interaction to speak of.

I've explored the town and found a few random NPC encounters (that play out differently depending on build) as well as the ability to break into a certain NPCs house via the roof. Nothing mind-blowing, but certainly enough that I felt my exploration in the 3D world was justified.

The game has a CYOA dialogue/choice system, yet such a poor selection of choices (everything depends on stats/skills/build).

And, more importantly, previous choices. I'm not sure where exactly the flaw is here - what else should your choices depend on other that stats/skills/build/previous decisions?

I'd say the flaw is the text-adventure style guarantees your choices are limited to what the developer thought of, blocking any other player choices - see my example about more alternate solutions to the bandit fort.

The game has a turn-based combat system, yet no real tactical options (with party control).

I agree that party control would've been nice, but we've known since...uh...forever that the game wouldn't have it. Seems like a pointless thing to complain about now. I mean, I understand and agree with the statement that the game's combat would be better if you had control of more than one combatant, but, I've knew even before downloading the game that that wasn't the case.

 

[circ]

Well, I gave thief a shot. Seems a little fucked up. You can go sort of, a combat route or talky route, or something inbetween, except there aren't enough skillpoints to go around.

Needed persuasion pretty high to get the gate guards to let the shit through. Then trading 42 or something pretty high to get a discount. Should have maybe ignored trading.
Needed int 7+(?) to suggest forging shit, then perception 8 or 9 to do it. Disguise 30 to get close to the guy and finally stealing like 40 to steal his ring.
If you then drop everything into persuasion you can bypass the second check, but your crit hit will be too low to avoid combat that follows, and you're pretty screwed there with your sucky bow skill/dodge and crit.

Also a bug there. After you disguise to beg for money and try to steal the ring, you can't put on your thief clothes again.

 

[Curunír]

Funny, if it was made by Bioware [...]

What a ridiculous thought.

 

[adure]

even fallout 1 gave you a chance to survive the rats at the vault door...

 

[J_C]

Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.