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Thursday is finally here.

zeitgeist

Magister
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
1,444
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.
No, that's how the game works. In a regular RPG, you'd have a handful of powergaming builds that make combat very easy, and a larger choice of RP builds that would work to some extent in situations you would reasonably expect them to work in (be very challenging in some situations and less so in others). Here, all you really have is that handful of the former, since the latter aren't viable, and most combat situations are similar enough for the same build to work the exact same way throughout the entire demo. Once you stumble upon the right build(s), that's it for the combat.
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
489
Location
Singapore
After watching Felipepepe's trailer and reading all the whining about combat difficulty (or just being HARD for illogical or luck-based reasons) I've decided to have a go at it myself since I kinda like to powergame through stuff and anything even the Codex community gets frustrated with gives me additional motivation. Don't think my opinion matters for much around here but I'll try my best to give the game a fair go and compile a short list of things/tips that can be done in combat in the demo to make it less intimidating. Basically going to try to 'break' the combat portion of the game as best as I can and hope the feedback is useful to VD and the players.

Downloading the demo right now and popping a magnum of wine to get my 'war-face' on and REALLY hoping all that hype about punishing combat isn't just tease. Wish me luck!

Edit: Oh god you guys are seeding the torrent HARD.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Messages
28,396
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
After watching Felipepepe's trailer and reading all the whining about combat difficulty (or just being HARD for illogical or luck-based reasons) I've decided to have a go at it myself since I kinda like to powergame through stuff and anything even the Codex community gets frustrated with gives me additional motivation. Don't think my opinion matters for much around here but I'll try my best to give the game a fair go and compile a short list of things/tips that can be done in combat in the demo to make it less intimidating. Basically going to try to 'break' the combat portion of the game as best as I can and hope the feedback is useful to VD and the players.

Downloading the demo right now and popping a magnum of wine to get my 'war-face' on and REALLY hoping all that hype about punishing combat isn't just tease. Wish me luck!

:lol: good luck bro. Save before you put points on skills.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Developer
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Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.
No, that's how the game works. In a regular RPG, you'd have a handful of powergaming builds that make combat very easy, and a larger choice of RP builds that would work to some extent in situations you would reasonably expect them to work in (be very challenging in some situations and less so in others). Here, all you really have is that handful of the former, since the latter aren't viable, and most combat situations are similar enough for the same build to work the exact same way throughout the entire demo. Once you stumble upon the right build(s), that's it for the combat.
I see. Well I don't like powergaming per se, so this cuts back my enthusiesm about the game a little. This doesn't mean that I give up upon AoD, but I expected something different.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.
It's an optional fight and it's hard for all builds at first.

I understand that most people expected the first few fights to be easy and maybe we should have done just that, but what's done is done. The way the game is designed, there are no casual combat encounters and if you decide to kill someone, there is always a good chance that it's you who will end up dead.

On the plus side, you're often given options to avoid combat, so you are not forced to fight these "impossible" battles. If you must, however, either prepare for a challenging fight with the merc or use persuasion or critical strike to kill him or soften him up.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.

By "the first fight", do you literally mean the opening vignette? Why do you even want to fight the guy when you can either kill him through dialogue or persuade him to go away?

It's actually something I really like about the game - violence just for violence' sake leads to difficult situations, and the merc/assassin opening is a great example of this. It's a relatively difficult fight on both ends, and requires a decent understanding of the combat system. Thing is, there is no in-game reason to even engage in it, for either side. Players only want to do it because they think the'll get skill points and loot if they win.

I dunno about the assassin, but the second fight as a merc, where you do have a reason to not simply walk away, is quite easy.
 

commie

The Last Marxist
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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
And environmental interaction? Roxor and commie, did you seriously enjoy going through all the random barrels and boxes in Neverwinter Nights, hunting down those oh-so-logical gems and gold coins, left lying around? Are you the sort of person who goes through every single house in every village and town in BG1&2 to loot them because their OCD doesn't allow otherwise? Fuck me.

Nice strawman with the barrels...Who was asking for this? :roll:
Yes, I sure as fuck enjoy going through barrels in NWN, and it says a lot that you are raising NWN as some sort of a pinnacle for RPG design here.

Oh, I should have compared a isometric TB RPG to a first-person RT RPG like Gothic? Shame on me for not realizing that. Fallout had exactly one environmental interaction in the whole game, the radscorpion cave unless you want to count the bomb as a second one. Plus the whole game was about exploration. Teron definitely isn't. And again, in 99% of CRPGS, environmental interaction means looting barrels and houses. The fucking puzzle-traps in BaK were a ridiculous gimmick that I hope never resurface in any other game. All the other stuff you gave examples of could be integrated into the text adventures - that there aren't suitable examples in the demo is a valid complaint.

Again with the strawman. Compare whatever you like, the point is that in other games there is environmental interaction. Shit, there are tactical combat isometric games like JA2 and Silent Storm that have more environmental interaction than AoD. You mention that in Fallout there was but one or two environmental interactions but you're lying through your teeth. You can interact with the environment almost anywhere: the act of placing a timed bomb anywhere in the world with the view to cause a distraction or act as a trap or blow out doors is an obvious one. You can interact in a number of ways with doors and machines to break them down or fix them(force fields anyone?) You can use shovels to dig in the dirt or graves...list goes on and on....or aren't those examples of environmental interaction? Oh and this is not a 3D third person ARPG, so you can't use that line to dismiss it.

Imagine how much more awesum AoD could be if by exploring around you actually added to your speech options for example? Say you wanted something from someone and they wouldn't give it to you. You could sneak around in real time using the correct skills around his warehouse and notice through perception skill that there's a scrap of some contraband jammed in the crack of the rear entry. You take the scrap and next time you see the guy, you can ask him about it, blackmailing him. Shit like this would add to the 3D world immensely.

As it is the actual 3D world actually reminds me of the type used in those cheapo Russian 'RPG' things like Hard to Be a God or Taras Bulba, right down to the chunky character design: an environment that exists for no reason apart from being a location for quest dispensers and combat.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Developer
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
16,947
Location
Pannonia
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.
It's an optional fight and it's hard for all builds at first.

I understand that most people expected the first few fights to be easy and maybe we should have done just that, but what's done is done. The way the game is designed, there are no casual combat encounters and if you decide to kill someone, there is always a good chance that it's you who will end up dead.

On the plus side, you're often given options to avoid combat, so you are not forced to fight these "impossible" battles. If you must, however, either prepare for a challenging fight with the merc or use persuasion or critical strike to kill him or soften him up.
Ok, I'm saying it now. This game is unbalanced as hell! I rolled a crossbow using assassin with dagger as a secondary weapon. At least I wanted to, because the first fight was unbeatable this way. I tried at least 20 times, with no luck. I had to pour every stat point to STR, DEX and CON and into daggers to win the fight. I managed to win the fight this way, and I quit afterwards, so maybe the following fights are more balanced, I don't know. And I know I'm emberrasing myself, because I bet that others didn't have problems, they are more pro than me. But I don't think that it is a idea to make the first fight so difficult to certain classes, that they want to pull their hair out.

By "the first fight", do you literally mean the opening vignette? Why do you even want to fight the guy when you can either kill him through dialogue or persuade him to go away?

It's actually something I really like about the game - violence just for violence' sake leads to difficult situations, and the merc/assassin opening is a great example of this. It's a relatively difficult fight on both ends, and requires a decent understanding of the combat system. Thing is, there is no in-game reason to even engage in it, for either side. Players only want to do it because they think the'll get skill points and loot if they win.

I dunno about the assassin, but the second fight as a merc, where you do have a reason to not simply walk away, is quite easy.
Thanks for the advice from both of you. I knew that a critical strike would help, but I didn't put points on the skill, so I always failed. Just like the persuasion. I thought I can win without them. I guess I was wrong. Now I rolled a character which had some extra points on critical strike, and I managed to soften up the merc with it. It was still a difficult fight, but I won for the first try. I have to remind myself that the combat focused gamestyle is not always the best in this case. I got used to that style in the last decade with all the actionRPGs released.

Some more thoughts about the game:
- I like the graphics, I think it is quite good from the torque engine. Camera is OK, not perfect, but I can use it.
- Loving the interface, except the character generator screen. The only problem with it is that the character is too small on the screen, I can hardly see his face, so when I change the face, hair, facial hair options, I can barely notice the change. Not that it is important for me, but I noticed this anyway. But apart from that the GUI has a nice style to it. I didn't have a problem with the fonts on 1680x1050 resolution as others.
- Music is nice. I'd have liked that the NPC-s had one lined voiceovers (like in infinity games), but I understand that it would cost money, time.
- Is there (or will there be) a discription about the different attack types? I mean normal attack, dagger flurry, fast attack etc. I can see their different damage range and the AP, but maybe something about other modifiers?

So these are my first impressions, I will have more when I finish the demo.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Imagine how much more awesum AoD could be if by exploring around you actually added to your speech options for example? Say you wanted something from someone and they wouldn't give it to you. You could sneak around in real time using the correct skills around his warehouse and notice through perception skill that there's a scrap of some contraband jammed in the crack of the rear entry. You take the scrap and next time you see the guy, you can ask him about it, blackmailing him. Shit like this would add to the 3D world immensely.

This. Right now, the game would go into a dialogue window and show you the options "Examine the floor" and "Examine the walls" and you'd automatically know there's something interesting to find if your perception stat is high enough.
 
Joined
Feb 19, 2005
Messages
4,610
Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
Well yeah, instead of making environmental interaction more interesting than in other games it got scrapped altogether. This whole "lol do you like searching trough barrels in NWN??" argument is just a fucking cheap strawman and nothing else. After playing the demo I'll have to agree with what some of the others said. The AoD approach is interesting, but the 3D world is almost completely useless in this game, except for combat. I reckon with but a fraction of the funds spend on developing the game engine you could have hired a talented artist to draw you nice backgrounds pictures and just do the whole game in a 2D text adventure mode, except for combat encounters.

Anyways, judging from the demo AoD is still interesting and original enough to give the full game a try once it comes out, although I wholeheartedly disagree with the skip "useless filler" approach.
 
Joined
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Messages
489
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Okay these are my first impressions of the combat system and attached are mini-walkthroughs of the first 3 fights as a mercenary. I don't think anyone should have much trouble with combat if you put the points into statistics affecting combat (quite a no-brainer, right?). I am going to post more as I get into more fights but as a point, I am going to try to get into combat as often as I can.

Creation

I swung by the first assassin fight 2 times to look at AP values and find out more about the fundamentals of combat mechanics. It appears that flat DR is quite significant, and that a sweet spot for AP should be important.

If anyone played NWN (the first one) PvP arena servers, your instinct should tell you that the natural counter to flat DR (Stoneskin, etc.) is efficient (fast and high hit-rate), large damage. In NWN, you'll go with a big, regular criticals build but in AoD Demo, I haven't found out exactly how criticals work so I maxed out my Strength for a nifty +4 damage bonus.

AP next. It's the bread and butter of strategic turn-based combat to be able to do as many things as possible within a turn because if you think about it, every extra action you have in a turn on average quickly builds into a serious advantage over the course of a combat encounter. However, stat points are limited and when deciding how much AP you should have, it's always good to get the highest possible without having to deal with leftover points (which in AoD does not translate to extra AC, like in Fallout, I think). Since I am trying to make-do with an idiotproof swing-swing-swing tactic, 10 AP is the sweet spot. Why? Because accessing inventory (for disarms, and equips) is 4 points, same as with a normal attack. Fast attacks cost 3 AP. So on average, you are going to have 3 attacks a turn, or 2 with an inventory access, which should be decent. Why not 12 AP? Because stat points are precious in the AoD Demo, and because...

Edit: Another thing that's very important but I didn't write about... the AP cap on armor. I'm seeing around 10-11 AP cap on the starting suits so that's another plus for having 10 AP.

HP matters. From the perspective of a mercenary playthrough that tries for the swing-swing-swing strategy, the lack of HP bloat puts crazy value on being able to sustain 2-3 more hits. With 10 strength and 8 dex (for 10 AP), I decided 8 con (50 hp) will be enough to tip myself over most endurance fights (which is basically the essence of the swing-swing-swing strategy - outlast efficiently). Having the ability to last 2-3 more hits means potentially having access to your AP advantage in extra actions (against a neutral opponent - in Fallout and in AoD Demo, so far, BWARGGHGH I SMASH opponents usually have 2-3 attacks a turn, and FEEEWWWT IM SNEAKZ agile opponents range from 3-4 actions a turn, so far). So, you are AT LEAST matching the number of attacks your enemies have. This is important because being to survive 2-3 turns more on HP without the ability to AT LEAST match the number of combat actions your typical enemy has is counterintuitive; you are just building on their advantage.

I neglected Perception and Charisma, not being the point of my play, so they both get the min of 4. Int gets the leftover 2 points for a total of 6. Not being entirely sure of the returns of the critical strike skill investment, I stuck to the swing-swing-swing philosophy of high hit-rates and put most of my points in Hammer (choice of equipment is outside of the limits of my judgement, itemisation is a whole different beast). There probably will emerge builds with fast dagger attacks being viable for a pure thumping build but for simplicity's sake, I chose the weapon that looks like it will have the highest damage range cap per swing. This is also in-line with the swing-swing-swing methodology against flat DR mechanics by employing highest damage possible. This is made more efficient by the fact that AP for dagger fast swings are exactly the same as hammer fast swings, for example.

First Fight

I can see how this assassin will be frustrating for non-combat centric characters. But AoD is a good RPG in that it provides for that - JUST DON'T FIGHT HIM, MAYBE? But for me, I'll mash him. There should be no problems at all for a mercenary character in this encounter, as long as you don't think fancy. Just walk right up to him, and repeatedly fast/fast/normal him. Disarm every other turn? Should not be a problem as you still get your 2 fast attacks in at 10 AP. And your sweet starting armor DR and respectable HP, combined with a high hit and damage rate (DPS, basically) will expand the difference between your HPs rapidly until he is dead. I was getting between 50-60+% hit percentage per swing; will be great if VD can reveal hit calculations then I can refine this dumb build more.

Edit: After more replays, I can see how a string of criticals lowering your stats (?) will put you in the FUCKED zone pretty fast, haha.

Edit: Fight 1.5: the two thugs if you choose to follow Verdanis (?) to sell the dead guy's wares are simple, but Verdanis dies all the time, don't know if I can manage to save him.

Second Fight

It's easy, and I don't think anyone should have problems with it. You basically have 2 piles of meat to distract enemies with. I am not sure on the priorities of AI in combat but it seems they are not very willing to let go of a target once they get into range of it and lands a couple of swings. So, just let the 2 idiots engage first, then just waltz in and hit on their targets. Another very basic concept in the numbers game is that you always try to reduce the number of enemies first, as every additional foe = entire additional set of actions vs you. Concentrated fire is the key. Don't look at the enemies like they are separate entities, look at them collectively like a single encounter. If this 'encounter' has a total of 20 actions per turn, and concentrated fire over 2-3 turns can readily reduce that to 16-17 actions per turn, it's definitely worth it. The threat is reduced significantly with every enemy death.

Edit: Remember the Fallout combat AP attrition trick? Just have rough guesstimate of you opponent's AP and if you have more than him, try to negotiate a sequence of movement in a turn after an attack to force his next turn to be spent mostly on movement. I know there's a disengagement mechanic so the efficiency of this depends alot on your avoidance/DR.

Third Fight

Uhhh, again, the AI as mentioned above is exploitable here, in my experience. Just walk to a corner on your first turn, and let the 2 idiots sort if out. Kill the survivor. Done.

Summary

So far, the combat is fine for a combat-centric character, and not as randomised as I was led to believe from several posts in this thread. I will play on and try to get into those thematic fights where odds are stacked against me, and try to surmount them and share on how I did it. Other than the small text (1920x1080) I am liking the UI and animations in combat. Sound effects are great as well. Once I finish every fight as a mercenary and writing about it I might try how vastly difficult it is using a non-combat centric character archetype. But seriously, a game comes along that doesn't let non-fighters fight like a god in all good logic and people whine about it? Cannot process.

Edit: I also think the gravity of combat and its danger is quite well represented so far, in the demo. It's never a 'hey-it's-XP-time' like many other RPGs. I like the intensity of the decision to even engage in a fight, it's realistic in a way.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Thank you for restoring my sanity points. It's great to see someone starting the game and beating the first few fights without rage-quitting.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
Again with the strawman. Compare whatever you like, the point is that in other games there is environmental interaction. Shit, there are tactical combat isometric games like JA2 and Silent Storm that have more environmental interaction than AoD.
No shit. These are pure tactical games with RPG elements, especially SS, and the interaction is one of the main features. You need to be able to open doors or blow up a wall manually without any text windows getting in the way.

You mention that in Fallout there was but one or two environmental interactions but you're lying through your teeth. You can interact with the environment almost anywhere: the act of placing a timed bomb anywhere in the world with the view to cause a distraction or act as a trap or blow out doors is an obvious one. You can interact in a number of ways with doors and machines to break them down or fix them(force fields anyone?) You can use shovels to dig in the dirt or graves...list goes on and on....or aren't those examples of environmental interaction? Oh and this is not a 3D third person ARPG, so you can't use that line to dismiss it.
That's where we disagree.

Yes, Fallout had a lot of so-called interaction with the environment, but it wasn't much. Click on the force fields to disable them. Click on a lock to pick it. Click on a door to open it. Click on a computer to learn stuff from it. Click on the well to repair it. Click on a generator to repair it. Etc.

Click on an object, pass a hidden check, gain skill points. Ta-da!

What we have is approach an object, a text window pops up, select your options, pass checks, etc. How the fuck is it different? Does being able to move your mouse and successfully click on an obvious object all by yourself really fill you with a sense of accomplishment and make you feel that it totally justifies the gameworld?
 

Kaol

Educated
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
253
Okay these are my first impressions of the combat system and attached are mini-walkthroughs of the first 3 fights as a mercenary. I don't think anyone should have much trouble with combat if you put the points into statistics affecting combat (quite a no-brainer, right?). I am going to post more as I get into more fights but as a point, I am going to try to get into combat as often as I can.

Creation

I swung by the first assassin fight 2 times to look at AP values and find out more about the fundamentals of combat mechanics. It appears that flat DR is quite significant, and that a sweet spot for AP should be important.

If anyone played NWN (the first one) PvP arena servers, your instinct should tell you that the natural counter to flat DR (Stoneskin, etc.) is efficient (fast and high hit-rate), large damage. In NWN, you'll go with a big, regular criticals build but in AoD Demo, I haven't found out exactly how criticals work so I maxed out my Strength for a nifty +4 damage bonus.

AP next. It's the bread and butter of strategic turn-based combat to be able to do as many things as possible within a turn because if you think about it, every extra action you have in a turn on average quickly builds into a serious advantage over the course of a combat encounter. However, stat points are limited and when deciding how much AP you should have, it's always good to get the highest possible without having to deal with leftover points (which in AoD does not translate to extra AC, like in Fallout, I think). Since I am trying to make-do with an idiotproof swing-swing-swing tactic, 10 AP is the sweet spot. Why? Because accessing inventory (for disarms, and equips) is 4 points, same as with a normal attack. Fast attacks cost 3 AP. So on average, you are going to have 3 attacks a turn, or 2 with an inventory access, which should be decent. Why not 12 AP? Because stat points are precious in the AoD Demo, and because...

Edit: Another thing that's very important but I didn't write about... the AP cap on armor. I'm seeing around 10-11 AP cap on the starting suits so that's another plus for having 10 AP.

HP matters. From the perspective of a mercenary playthrough that tries for the swing-swing-swing strategy, the lack of HP bloat puts crazy value on being able to sustain 2-3 more hits. With 10 strength and 8 dex (for 10 AP), I decided 8 con (50 hp) will be enough to tip myself over most endurance fights (which is basically the essence of the swing-swing-swing strategy - outlast efficiently). Having the ability to last 2-3 more hits means potentially having access to your AP advantage in extra actions (against a neutral opponent - in Fallout and in AoD Demo, so far, BWARGGHGH I SMASH opponents usually have 2-3 attacks a turn, and FEEEWWWT IM SNEAKZ agile opponents range from 3-4 actions a turn, so far). So, you are AT LEAST matching the number of attacks your enemies have. This is important because being to survive 2-3 turns more on HP without the ability to AT LEAST match the number of combat actions your typical enemy has is counterintuitive; you are just building on their advantage.

I neglected Perception and Charisma, not being the point of my play, so they both get the min of 4. Int gets the leftover 2 points for a total of 6. Not being entirely sure of the returns of the critical strike skill investment, I stuck to the swing-swing-swing philosophy of high hit-rates and put most of my points in Hammer (choice of equipment is outside of the limits of my judgement, itemisation is a whole different beast). There probably will emerge builds with fast dagger attacks being viable for a pure thumping build but for simplicity's sake, I chose the weapon that looks like it will have the highest damage range cap per swing. This is also in-line with the swing-swing-swing methodology against flat DR mechanics by employing highest damage possible. This is made more efficient by the fact that AP for dagger fast swings are exactly the same as hammer fast swings, for example.

First Fight

I can see how this assassin will be frustrating for non-combat centric characters. But AoD is a good RPG in that it provides for that - JUST DON'T FIGHT HIM, MAYBE? But for me, I'll mash him. There should be no problems at all for a mercenary character in this encounter, as long as you don't think fancy. Just walk right up to him, and repeatedly fast/fast/normal him. Disarm every other turn? Should not be a problem as you still get your 2 fast attacks in at 10 AP. And your sweet starting armor DR and respectable HP, combined with a high hit and damage rate (DPS, basically) will expand the difference between your HPs rapidly until he is dead. I was getting between 50-60+% hit percentage per swing; will be great if VD can reveal hit calculations then I can refine this dumb build more.

Edit: After more replays, I can see how a string of criticals lowering your stats (?) will put you in the FUCKED zone pretty fast, haha.

Edit: Fight 1.5: the two thugs if you choose to follow Verdanis (?) to sell the dead guy's wares are simple, but Verdanis dies all the time, don't know if I can manage to save him.

Second Fight

It's easy, and I don't think anyone should have problems with it. You basically have 2 piles of meat to distract enemies with. I am not sure on the priorities of AI in combat but it seems they are not very willing to let go of a target once they get into range of it and lands a couple of swings. So, just let the 2 idiots engage first, then just waltz in and hit on their targets. Another very basic concept in the numbers game is that you always try to reduce the number of enemies first, as every additional foe = entire additional set of actions vs you. Concentrated fire is the key. Don't look at the enemies like they are separate entities, look at them collectively like a single encounter. If this 'encounter' has a total of 20 actions per turn, and concentrated fire over 2-3 turns can readily reduce that to 16-17 actions per turn, it's definitely worth it. The threat is reduced significantly with every enemy death.

Edit: Remember the Fallout combat AP attrition trick? Just have rough guesstimate of you opponent's AP and if you have more than him, try to negotiate a sequence of movement in a turn after an attack to force his next turn to be spent mostly on movement. I know there's a disengagement mechanic so the efficiency of this depends alot on your avoidance/DR.

Third Fight

Uhhh, again, the AI as mentioned above is exploitable here, in my experience. Just walk to a corner on your first turn, and let the 2 idiots sort if out. Kill the survivor. Done.

Summary

So far, the combat is fine for a combat-centric character, and not as randomised as I was led to believe from several posts in this thread. I will play on and try to get into those thematic fights where odds are stacked against me, and try to surmount them and share on how I did it. Other than the small text (1920x1080) I am liking the UI and animations in combat. Sound effects are great as well. Once I finish every fight as a mercenary and writing about it I might try how vastly difficult it is using a non-combat centric character archetype. But seriously, a game comes along that doesn't let non-fighters fight like a god in all good logic and people whine about it? Cannot process.

Edit: I also think the gravity of combat and its danger is quite well represented so far, in the demo. It's never a 'hey-it's-XP-time' like many other RPGs. I like the intensity of the decision to even engage in a fight, it's realistic in a way.

To be honest those fights were really quite easy, i found the difficulty ramped up significantly in the next two.
 

empi

Augur
Joined
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Messages
452
In Fallout etc. you spot something, then you decide to interact with it, perhaps examining it first. You can easily miss these things; you can play through the game several times without realising you can blow up the scorpion cave. If you had the same scenario in AoD, you'd have a dialogue window and "[Perception] Investigate for structural weak spots" or similar. They aren't the same, you can't miss a big fucking dialogue option telling you what to do. Seriously, why spend all this time creating nice artwork, 3d environments etc., then not allowing us to explore and interact with it? Could've gone for darklands approach and focused on improving the writing, the characterisation, the meaningful choices etc.
Why can't you save, use skillpoints, equip weapons/armors before you get teleported to the next encounter?
Why in a game where the main appeal is the choices, are almost all the choices determined by the skills you arbitrarily took at the beggining?
Why in a dialogue based games are almost all the characters just quest givers who you test your skills against? There's a difference between removing fluff and removing what makes a game interesting.
Why, in all your months of polishing and beta testing, were none of these questions asked?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
What we have is approach an object, a text window pops up, select your options, pass checks, etc. How the fuck is it different? Does being able to move your mouse and successfully click on an obvious object all by yourself really fill you with a sense of accomplishment and make you feel that it totally justifies the gameworld?

For one, it makes the interesting bits of the game less obvious, and therefore adds to the "immersion" and sense of discovery.

If upon approaching the town well, a dialogue pops up that says "The town well is damaged and the people crowding around it are scratching their heads." you know that it's damaged without asking anyone before, you know you can probably do something about it based on the choices presented to you in the dialogue window, and that's that.

Without the dialogue popup, you first have to talk to people to know what's going on, then try out some of your skills on the well to see if it helps. No, it's not a big accomplishment at all, but it feels more natural and less like the game is trying to show you all the awesome choices and skillchecks it has by automatically opening up a dialogue window whenever you approach a point of interest. It feels, like Darth Roxor said, a bit like railroading.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
In Fallout etc. you spot something, then you decide to interact with it, perhaps examining it first. You can easily miss these things; you can play through the game several times without realising you can blow up the scorpion cave.
Easily replicated with a perception check, which, in my opinion, is more appropriate. We do have it in the demo. You can't spot some things unless your Per is high enough. Better than pixel hunting.

If you had the same scenario in AoD, you'd have a dialogue window and "[Perception] Investigate for structural weak spots" or similar.
No. Many checks are hidden. For example, when you get "enter the mine" line, there are checks attached to it that determine which text node you get. Things like that.

They aren't the same, you can't miss a big fucking dialogue option telling you what to do.
Again, many options aren't there. We use 'on appear' checks a lot - different conditions for lines to show up: stats, skills, rep, faction, quests completed, which way their were completed, etc.

It's a mistake to think that you see all the options the game has.

Seriously, why spend all this time creating nice artwork, 3d environments etc., then not allowing us to explore and interact with it?
Explained about the 'interaction' above. You can explore. The world is fairly atmospheric (in my opinion) and 3d environments work better than a bunch of static pictures, but it's subjective, I suppose. Suffice to say that we prefer it this way.

Why can't you save, use skillpoints, equip weapons/armors before you get teleported to the next encounter?
You can save and do whatever you want between quests. That's often enough, in my opinion.

Why in a game where the main appeal is the choices, are almost all the choices determined by the skills you arbitrarily took at the beggining?
Not sure I understand.

It's a stat and skill-based RPG, so a lot of choices should be determined by your stats and skills. Stats and skills that you picked. That's the fucking idea, isn't it? You get plenty of skill points and can easily expand your skill set as you go, which increases the number of viable options.

Why in a dialogue based games are almost all the characters just quest givers who you test your skills against? There's a difference between removing fluff and removing what makes a game interesting.
Subjective. What makes games interesting for you isn't what makes them interesting for someone else.

Take taking to random NPCs 'feature', for example. We don't have it as I don't see any value in it.

Hi there, adventurer. What can I do for you?
1) Tell me about this town.
2) What do you do?
3) I'm looking for a job.
4) Have you heard any rumors?

:shrug:
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,643
So your philosophy is basically that doing nothing (AoD) is better than doing something you deem shitty. I guess it works for you, but for me computer games were always about playing.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,038
For one, it makes the interesting bits of the game less obvious, and therefore adds to the "immersion" and sense of discovery.
But they don't. None of the objects you could interact with in Fallout were easy to miss.

If upon approaching the town well, a dialogue pops up that says "The town well is damaged and the people crowding around it are scratching their heads." you know that it's damaged without asking anyone before, you know you can probably do something about it based on the choices presented to you in the dialogue window, and that's that.
Sure, if you come up with a specific scenario and pretend that everything in the game works exactly the same way.

You go down to the cellar in the tower. If your perception is low, you see nothing of interest.

Without the dialogue popup, you first have to talk to people to know what's going on, then try out some of your skills on the well to see if it helps.
Some? You mean, it took you several tries to figure out that Repair is the right skill? IIRC, you have this big honking well that's begging you to click on it. You click, it says that it's broken. You click Repair, click on the well, and now it's fixed. Victary at sea!
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
ITT: Everyone's an immersionfag. If mondblut were dead, he'd be laughing from beyond the grave right now.
 

empi

Augur
Joined
Mar 7, 2010
Messages
452
You should just get a person who hates RPGs to design one instead, then they can leave everything out! 0% FLUFF, 0% BAD STUFF YAY!

Also, I'm not sure if you were purposely doing the politician style "I don't want to answer this question, I'll answer something else", or if you completely misunderstood me. Either way, you can still continue ignoring negative feedback and instead enjoy this flawed thing you've released yourself! AoD was much better left as a hopeful vapourware dream of what might come if we all closed our eyes and wished enough.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming!
Well you can laugh about immersion- and storyfags all you want, but one of the main appeals of computer games in general and RPGs in particular is escapism. And before anyone of you disagrees: CRPGs originated as emulations of Pen and Paper RPGs, which basicly are about providing a bunch of nerds the possiblity to pretend to be powerful heroes in a fantasy world. If that's not escapism, what is? Exploring the world, moving your character trough it, finding stuff, interacting with the world (even if it's something simple like using your repair skill on a well) - that's all part of the immersion and escapism.

If you strip your game of all that "fluff" and only leave the bare mechanics, what's the point of playing games? To be challenged? Sorry but I can think of hundred more meaningful ways to face a challenge (how about doing some sport?) than playing a useless computer game.

Even something as simple as navigating trough the world via the fast-travel map in Fallout adds to the game. Sure, you could just skip it and just teleport the character to the town he wants to go, after all it serves no real purpose. But it's still good that it's there. It should be expanded upon (for example by adding RoA-style survival elements that would very much fit to the post-nuclear scenario), but not scrapped all together.
 

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