Well, to me it's definitely more weird to enjoy a nerdy circlejerk storyfaggotry of dubious quality than to actually explore the mechanics, but to each his/her own.
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Thursday is finally here.
- Thread starter skallagrim
- Start date
Well, to me it's definitely more weird to enjoy a nerdy circlejerk storyfaggotry of dubious quality than to actually explore the mechanics, but to each his/her own.
Alex
Arcane
Sorry for the derail, but...
Personally, I find overcoming challenges through creativity and quick wit on the spot much more fun than anything that a computer game can offer. Computer games can be a lot of fun, trying to put together what the designer is hinting you, finding details of a carefully construed world, mastering a mechanical system until you can put together really powerful characters. all of this is great! But P&P games aren't below computer games in any of these categories. But on the other side, they offer a possibility for creativity to figure in each of these things that computer games simply can't match.
Edit: Sorry, I kinda forgot to get to the point. Some P&P groups may have had preferences that put you off in the past, but if you can find a good game you can enjoy, I believe you will find it more fun than any kind of computer game.
Personally, I find overcoming challenges through creativity and quick wit on the spot much more fun than anything that a computer game can offer. Computer games can be a lot of fun, trying to put together what the designer is hinting you, finding details of a carefully construed world, mastering a mechanical system until you can put together really powerful characters. all of this is great! But P&P games aren't below computer games in any of these categories. But on the other side, they offer a possibility for creativity to figure in each of these things that computer games simply can't match.
Edit: Sorry, I kinda forgot to get to the point. Some P&P groups may have had preferences that put you off in the past, but if you can find a good game you can enjoy, I believe you will find it more fun than any kind of computer game.
Silellak
Cipher
Is allowing the PC to choose the starting position/situation for certain fights on the table? I think it'd add a lot if your skills/stats played a role in where/how you initiate combat. For instance, a character with high sneak would have a chance to start in a more advantageous position, while a ranged character could opt to stand further back from the main fight itself.
I think a lot of the frustration is coming from being "forced" into crappy combat placement, and allowing the player to have some control of that - especially if that control is related to their particular build - would go a long way.
Cowboy Moment
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2011
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- 4,407
It's just another symptom of Asperger's, nothing to be ashamed of (especially on the Codex).
Described by some as enjoyable != endorsed by everyone as enjoyable. Some people describe Twilight as "basically being enjoyable", but I'd rather pass.
vvvv
I'm not angry, I just pointed out that not everyone finds meltdown's description of P&P experience to his/her liking and if that's what P&P amounts to, then I'd rather pass.
Silellak
Cipher
I am very angry about how other people choose to have fun.
Excidium
P. banal
I personally prefer more serious RPGs, but sometimes you just want to pass time and have some laughs with your bros.
Why?
What about the surprise attack on the Raider Camp when you go there to rescue the noble with the assistance of the thief's guild?
The way it is, it just seems you wanted to ignore all logic and force the encounter there on the merchant's ambush.
This a hundred times, and it goes to show that Bee has, indeed, never played P&P with a good group. Because only there can a problem such as 'You come across a frozen lake, you'll have to cross it' be met with a reply 'I use my knowledge of survival and construction to build a 30 metre long ladder that will take us through the ice!'.
And then you roll them degrees of
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Darth, I understand that you don't like the game. It's your right. I didn't expect everyone to like it and I knew that some design decisions will rub some people the wrong way. Why attack me though as if I owe you money?B-but, they do exactly that if you hire the thieves to get rid of the raiders
To answer you, when you ask the thieves to help you with the raiders there is no actual fight and thus everything and anything is possible. The 'ambush' is an actual fight and must follow many rules enforced by the engine.
Obviously, an attack from the rooftops is the best possible ambush in this situation, but it wouldn't work here, unfortunately. What we can do is very limited and I'm truly surprised I have to explain that.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
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- 28,044
No.
sgc_meltdown
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2003
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- 6,000
Queen Buzzypants you make me sad
really, you would show up to sessions and go ALRIGHT GUYS LET'S WRECK THE ENCOUNTERS TODAY instead of thinking what to do about the succubi court's balance of power
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16425991/
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/15534481/
Because it's RPG Codex and raging incoherently about stupid things is all the, well, rage?
It does spawn a rather glaring inconsistency when the thieves are ninjas in one scenario, and roadblock cannon fodder in another one, doesn't it?
- Joined
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Modders will fix it.
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2005
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- 4,631
Just to add something to what I said previously: I don't want to put words in anyones mouth, but for me the logical consequence of dismissing all the "fluff" in RPGs is the conclusion that big, detailed cities like Athkathla or Tarant add absolutly nothing to RPGs except for tedious running back and forth with your character. And that, in my opinion, would be an absolutly crazy claim.
I love a good ruleset and challenging combat encounters as much as the next guy, but I sure as hell didn't play and enjoy Arcanum for the mechanics.
Anyways, this discussion is futile and purely academic. VD has chosen to design AoD in a specific way and this is not going to change. I may not like this particular design philosophy, but as I said previously I think there is still a lot of stuff left in AoD to make the game interesting, even if (judging from the demo) it's far away from my ideal dream RPG that I (naively) expected it to be.
Contrary to many here, I like the combat system and the challenge it provides. I'd like to chime in with those though who think that being able to chose your starting position in fights based on stat checks would be very nice.
I love a good ruleset and challenging combat encounters as much as the next guy, but I sure as hell didn't play and enjoy Arcanum for the mechanics.
Anyways, this discussion is futile and purely academic. VD has chosen to design AoD in a specific way and this is not going to change. I may not like this particular design philosophy, but as I said previously I think there is still a lot of stuff left in AoD to make the game interesting, even if (judging from the demo) it's far away from my ideal dream RPG that I (naively) expected it to be.
Contrary to many here, I like the combat system and the challenge it provides. I'd like to chime in with those though who think that being able to chose your starting position in fights based on stat checks would be very nice.
No you don't, you're just listening to sgc_meltdown talking about a style of P&P as though it was the only one.
I'm playing in a campaign right now with a tight challenge/dialogue-fight-challenge/dialogue-fight structure right now, for example, which is exactly what sgc described P&P as not being...
I don't really have anything to say about the rest of the exploration vs. non-interactivity debate. I haven't seen anything that explains to me exactly why exploration isn't just something someone likes and instead a fundamental element of any good RPG. Basically I think TftC summarizes it well here:
That I can understand. The attitude that the game is somehow less of an RPG because it lacks the interactivity and is therefore a worse game I can't.
Excidium
P. banal
I don't think sgc_meltdown meant that P&P is all about lulzyness, but it certainly is what most sessions degenerate into. Finding a good RPG group is the biggest chellenge ever, you have to hold it tight when you find it. Every few years I try to get into the "scene" here in my town and just give up in the end. God bless the internet.
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I was going to wait for a patched release but all the comments about the combat motivated me to try it out.
I beat the mercenary in the assassin vignette on my third attempt, using the default stat distribution and 40 in daggers and 32 in critical strike. Anyone who says that particular fight is too difficult is just a stubborn baby, though it does have some problems: there should be some indication on the starting character screen that raising your weapon skill to X points gives you a better version of that weapon and you should be given the chance to mess around in your inventory in the beginning instead of being immediately dumped into a dialogue screen and then combat.
Other than that I've just been messing around and not really furthering anything too much. I don't like the the rigid way skills are used but I knew about that going in. I also think there's a surprising amount of direct combat in the assassin quest-line. They're not very efficient assassins, are they?
I beat the mercenary in the assassin vignette on my third attempt, using the default stat distribution and 40 in daggers and 32 in critical strike. Anyone who says that particular fight is too difficult is just a stubborn baby, though it does have some problems: there should be some indication on the starting character screen that raising your weapon skill to X points gives you a better version of that weapon and you should be given the chance to mess around in your inventory in the beginning instead of being immediately dumped into a dialogue screen and then combat.
Other than that I've just been messing around and not really furthering anything too much. I don't like the the rigid way skills are used but I knew about that going in. I also think there's a surprising amount of direct combat in the assassin quest-line. They're not very efficient assassins, are they?
I guess maybe for some. Maybe it's different in Denmark. I have 4 or 5 groups of different people I play with. Only one of them where I'm sortta leery about some of the players. But in all of them we are grown people who can talk about our playstyles, which in mind is the most important thing if you want to get anywhere as a group.
But anyway, that wasn't the point.
Excidium
P. banal
Yeah.
I think you can avoid it for the most part with disguise and critical.
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Well, take the second quest for example: As far as I can tell, you have no choice but to go in to their house in broad daylight and attack them like some idiot, giving them time enough to get their weapons ready. It's either that or just leave and fail the mission.
Edit: I've tried it with different stats/builds, nothing changes. This is the huge flaw in choose your own adventures, rather than come up with your own solutions to problems you have to rely on choosing only what was planned for you (and if the designer-in-the-sky didn't think "Wait, why would an assassin go through the front door in broad daylight to kill some spies?" then tough luck). Choosing between two idiotic options isn't a much of a choice at all, this quest is as bad as anything in Oblivion or Witcher 2.
sgc_meltdown
Arcane
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- May 8, 2003
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- 6,000
semantic error
that's not what I said, did I say P&P didn't have dungeon crawling encounters or stat rolls or the like? I mentioned those quite well enough. Read the Descent to Undermountain dungeon sourcebook, it's great. Anyway the relevance of your campaign here is beside the matter, it's saying that you should only bother with rpgs in that particular way is what I disagree with.
What I said was that rpg settings and rulesets aren't there just for the number crunching challenge or resolving tactical combat situations alone, otherwise why not play something more focused and without the irrelevant storyfag minutiae like Settlers of Catan, or Blood Bowl, or Warmachine? That way you don't have to deal with nerdy larp your feelings nonsense and can exercise your intellect as you please.
What you're omitting is everything else an rpg can do for : social combat, freeform approach to situations, will of player characters, out of the box thinking as regards to spells and equipment etc. Then add that to the tactical combat which I have never said was not an important facet, it's that rolling damage dice is not the only reason why people bother with P&P.
Let's not take this to the level of "AoD took everything unnecessary out, and that's great that's because P&P RPGs are tr00 only if they take everything unnecessary out as well."
Exactly. And what I mean here is that "winning or having fun" is not confined to "winning combat or having fun with combat". You don't need to be a super serious elf ear wearing tattooed character name on arm fellow to enjoy yourself when you're not calculating damage ranges, because the latter is the only thing you're allowed to enjoy in p&p am i rite
think about it, do you remember your fight with the dragon in purely narrative terms or in purely how much numbers did we have terms
somewhere in between, quite possibly
And that's what the focus of P&P generally is. Somewhere in between
I think its minimalist style can be witnessed by the fact that there are basically just two types of skills: those for 'combat' and those for 'dialogue'. Why even bother with breaking skills down into things like perception, craft, sneak, when their method of operation is distilled into the form of a dialogue check? All these various skills boil down to being just different names for the same two things: a dialogue skill and a combat skill.
Oh and VD, don't cry, I still liked the demo and the game is better than most AAA efforts, but as others have said, I expected something akin to a Fallout or Arcanum in overall design rather than a amalgam of several RPG parts held together somewhat disjointedly with a superfluous 3D world thrown in.
Actually mondblut would agree with those that want some hands on interactivity, being a fan of the older mechanical blobbers in which the active use of non combat skills in the game world itself was often essential for progress. No dialogue popups with skill checks when coming across that group of slimes, no siree..
Gord
Arcane
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- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 7,049
So, quite late to the party, but I got the demo and decided to check it out.
I choose the Preator background, adjusted it a little bit and started the game.
First "missions": I get teleported to a few places by my boss, the head honcho of my house.
First I am to deliver a message, then I'm to intercept a small group and can question one of them in prison afterwards.
All the time, my low-ish persuasion and etiquette is sufficient to "win" these missions.
So far, so good.
That is, until I'm supposed to go to this outpost and bandit camp.
Obviously my skills are too low to use the peaceful route here.
My combat skills are definitely too low to take up against a whole camp.
So what now? Am I supposed to start over with a new character?
Or am I missing something?
Edit: Ok, played a bit more with the Preator, this time leveling him a bit differently.
So far the game seems to be mostly about finding out which skills to raise how far to be able to succeed the missions.
Too bad that there isn't actually a way to find out in advance.
E.g. I got the mantra from the loremaster. As I get hacked to pieces by attacking the outpost, the only way to succeed seems to be to disguise myself as the loremaster I have imprisoned earlier. So I buy a fitting robe (nice touch here!) andteleport travel to the outpost. After putting enough points into disguise I can enter. Luckily I also put a lot of points into persuasion to deal with the bandits.
So now I have to deal with the machine, but as I have not put any points into ancient lore (why would I?), I'm again stuck, although I got the mantra earlier...
My impression is so far, that the game is too much hit or miss.
Either you succeed without problems or you fail totaly (most of the time, there is admittedly a "bad" solution to the bandits).
You can play a diplomat or a fighter, but something in between seems almost impossible, at least in the demo.
If I raise combat skills, I cannot raise social skills much and will fail the checks. If I raise social skills I will suck at combat.
And at least my Praetorians have not encountered any easy fights yet during their missions, as both bandit camp and outpost will have you vastly outnumbered. So I am supposed to play a diplomat here?
Why is a Preator then described as a kind of diplomatic fighter when early game revolves completely around diplomacy?
So I understand that you wanted combat to be dangerous and the game to be challenging, with bad choices leading to bad consequences. That's great, really!
However, I still think that you should provide the player with some sort of learning curve, not a learning wall, especially in terms of combat. And if the only way to do a mandatory mission is either to exclusively raise the right set of skills or impossible combat, something went wrong (probably just in my understanding of the options I have at hand, though, so please tell me if I missed something)-
Another thing I noticed is, I raised axes, as the axe skill was the highest combat skill (somehow that made me think a Preator should use axes), but my starting weapon was a sword. Maybe you could adjust starting equipment accordingly.
I also encountered a bug during combat, where my character had his weapon or shield unequipped, so I had to enter inventory. In the case of the weapon I had to do it again in the second round.
I did not live long enough to see if he kept the weapon euipped in the third round.
Guess I'll try a different character next...
I choose the Preator background, adjusted it a little bit and started the game.
First "missions": I get teleported to a few places by my boss, the head honcho of my house.
First I am to deliver a message, then I'm to intercept a small group and can question one of them in prison afterwards.
All the time, my low-ish persuasion and etiquette is sufficient to "win" these missions.
So far, so good.
That is, until I'm supposed to go to this outpost and bandit camp.
Obviously my skills are too low to use the peaceful route here.
My combat skills are definitely too low to take up against a whole camp.
So what now? Am I supposed to start over with a new character?
Or am I missing something?
Edit: Ok, played a bit more with the Preator, this time leveling him a bit differently.
So far the game seems to be mostly about finding out which skills to raise how far to be able to succeed the missions.
Too bad that there isn't actually a way to find out in advance.
E.g. I got the mantra from the loremaster. As I get hacked to pieces by attacking the outpost, the only way to succeed seems to be to disguise myself as the loremaster I have imprisoned earlier. So I buy a fitting robe (nice touch here!) and
So now I have to deal with the machine, but as I have not put any points into ancient lore (why would I?), I'm again stuck, although I got the mantra earlier...
My impression is so far, that the game is too much hit or miss.
Either you succeed without problems or you fail totaly (most of the time, there is admittedly a "bad" solution to the bandits).
You can play a diplomat or a fighter, but something in between seems almost impossible, at least in the demo.
If I raise combat skills, I cannot raise social skills much and will fail the checks. If I raise social skills I will suck at combat.
And at least my Praetorians have not encountered any easy fights yet during their missions, as both bandit camp and outpost will have you vastly outnumbered. So I am supposed to play a diplomat here?
Why is a Preator then described as a kind of diplomatic fighter when early game revolves completely around diplomacy?
So I understand that you wanted combat to be dangerous and the game to be challenging, with bad choices leading to bad consequences. That's great, really!
However, I still think that you should provide the player with some sort of learning curve, not a learning wall, especially in terms of combat. And if the only way to do a mandatory mission is either to exclusively raise the right set of skills or impossible combat, something went wrong (probably just in my understanding of the options I have at hand, though, so please tell me if I missed something)-
Another thing I noticed is, I raised axes, as the axe skill was the highest combat skill (somehow that made me think a Preator should use axes), but my starting weapon was a sword. Maybe you could adjust starting equipment accordingly.
I also encountered a bug during combat, where my character had his weapon or shield unequipped, so I had to enter inventory. In the case of the weapon I had to do it again in the second round.
I did not live long enough to see if he kept the weapon euipped in the third round.
Guess I'll try a different character next...
Excidium
P. banal
You're probably missing something or has your skill points too spread around. I could totally avoid combat in the demo with my Praetor.
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