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Thursday is finally here.

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
think AoD in its current form has the ability to emulate P&P RPGs better than most (if any) other CRPG.
right now is that you're limited largely to what the developer thought of

I think what you mean is that AoD has unerringly emulated the abstracted-out downtime and selectively tuned out environment aspects of P&P

The thing is all that is merely a necessary byproduct of how to present a gaming session and have it remain coherent. Of course they aren't going to describe every passerby that walks past or make every house important. Does this mean the inability to say, use a passerby as a shield, or being able to duck in a deserted house and ambush pursuers?

No, a passerby or domicile will of course be there if the player character comes up with that idea. Likewise, a village rest stop could be created on the fly, and so on. That's the real strength of P&P that you really want but can't be emulated, not the fact that you don't need to find your way around a building for a quest or start dialog manually when you find the person you're looking for.

You're pretty much saying
Click on Junktown button from Vault 13, not see wavy line move or bother with map but teleport to Junktown gate instead = better emulation of P&P in Fallout

all this comes down to metaknowledge of videogame content/possible action border visibility issue, i.e. immersionfaggotry if you very much prefer
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
You're probably missing something or has your skill points too spread around. I could totally avoid combat in the demo with my Praetor.

Yes, that probably is/was the reason.
But I'm not sure if I like that design. A preator is advocated as something between a fighter and a diplomat, isn't he?
So why is the only viable option the social skills one?
That way there either is no difficulty, because I raised the right skills, or winning is impossible and I have to restart/reload.
Also it seems a bit arbitrary which skills I am supposed to raise. Of course those skills are logical in terms of the presented solutions, but it only becomes apparent after you saw the available solutions, so there is little more than guesswork in advance.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Social skills aren't the only viable ones, but you either focus on talking or killing. Spreading your points will just get you killed. That's the way it is.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
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Messages
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Copenhagen
Let's not take this to the level of "AoD took everything unnecessary out, and that's great that's because P&P RPGs are tr00 only if they take everything unnecessary out as well."

When did I ever go anywhere remotely there? The only ones who have even brought those kind of arguments into the discussion have been YOU PEOPLE :)troll:). Anyways, sgc, my only point is and has been that you're arguing about something you like not being in the game. Not because it is needed, not because the game tries to do it. Just because you like it. Obviously everything we all like being in there would be nice, but we can't have that. Hence my dog-cat argument.

As for the P&P discussion, no, read again babe :). I said you could very well have P&P without those things though I'll grant you it's not the norm.

And that's what the focus of P&P generally is. Somewhere in between

That should be double-bolded, in other words.


Interactivity is something you personally want in the game, it is not something it somehow requires to function (unlike the aforementioned shooters with no guns or RPGs with no depth).
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
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Copenhagen
I think what you mean is that AoD has unerringly emulated the abstracted-out downtime and selectively tuned out environment aspects of P&P

The thing is all that is merely a necessary byproduct of how to present a gaming session and have it remain coherent. Of course they aren't going to describe every passerby that walks past or make every house important. Does this mean the inability to say, use a passerby as a shield, or being able to duck in a deserted house and ambush pursuers?

No, a passerby or domicile will of course be there if the player character comes up with that idea. Likewise, a village rest stop could be created on the fly, and so on. That's the real strength of P&P that you really want but can't be emulated, not the fact that you don't need to find your way around a building for a quest or start dialog manually when you find the person you're looking for.

You're pretty much saying
Click on Junktown button from Vault 13, not see wavy line move or bother with map but teleport to Junktown gate instead = better emulation of P&P in Fallout

all this comes down to metaknowledge of videogame content/possible action border visibility issue, i.e. immersionfaggotry if you very much prefer

This is going to sound a lot more arrogant than it's intended, but is this in any way and important and/or necessary debate?

I mean, video games are video games, P&P is P&P. Why do we need to discuss what makes them different in order to evaluate whether AoD is good or not?
 
Joined
May 6, 2009
Messages
1,876,713
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Did you guys download this expecting Age of Van Buren? That's like asking to be disappointed.

Without the dialogue popup, you first have to talk to people to know what's going on, then try out some of your skills on the well to see if it helps.
Some? You mean, it took you several tries to figure out that Repair is the right skill? IIRC, you have this big honking well that's begging you to click on it. You click, it says that it's broken. You click Repair, click on the well, and now it's fixed. Victary at sea!

"Pickpocket! I'll steal the problems from the well, therefore fixing it!"

No effect.

"First Aid! The well is broken, so that could mean he's hurt and I have to heal it."

No effect.

"Er, doctor? Maybe the wounds are really deep."

No effect.

"Traps! Maybe someon installed a trap here that's preventing the bucket from coming up."

"Ah, fuck this shit. Let's try Repair."

Ding!

"Whoa! :eek:"
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Just finished the demo with a Loremaster joining the commercium, quite good for the most part. Except for the stupid ending.

You have to succeed either a sneak or dex check to avoid getting into a fight you can't win. The game doesn't even let you spend the 15 skill points you get after finishing the quest.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Actually mondblut would agree with those that want some hands on interactivity, being a fan of the older mechanical blobbers in which the active use of non combat skills in the game world itself was often essential for progress. No dialogue popups with skill checks when coming across that group of slimes, no siree..

But there is no mechanical difference between AoD and, say, Fallout 1. It's only the presentation that's different, which is why I'm endlessly amused by these complaints about lack of interactivity. Not that I don't understand them, I do, I agree with them, and I proposed a bunch of small fixes that would remedy this problem without requiring the development of a bunch of new systems. But it's still funny that the Codex, of all places, would be so adamant about this. As an immersionfag, I feel like I've won the war, and it's a double win because I like AoD as it is, despite its shortcomings.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Just finished the demo with a Loremaster joining the commercium, quite good for the most part. Except for the stupid ending.

You have to succeed either a sneak or dex check to avoid getting into a fight you can't win. The game doesn't even let you spend the 15 skill points you get after finishing the quest.
The ambush itself is avoidable though (if you convince Mercato instead of forcing him to join). I do agree that another option is needed there.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
Jun 14, 2007
Messages
9,199
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
Clockwork Knight

Yeah, if all it takes to repair the well is a skill check, then repairing the well isn't very difficult or fun in itself. But what was your point?

Edit: Oh, just saw you were quoting Vault Dweller. Sorry, my mistake :oops:
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
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Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Just finished the demo with a Loremaster joining the commercium, quite good for the most part. Except for the stupid ending.

You have to succeed either a sneak or dex check to avoid getting into a fight you can't win. The game doesn't even let you spend the 15 skill points you get after finishing the quest.
The ambush itself is avoidable though (if you convince Mercato instead of forcing him to join). I do agree that another option is needed there.
Hmm, I see. Maybe a bribe? With a [mercantile][streetwise] check to pay a smaller amount? They look like a bunch of hired thugs, not Imperial Guard.

Or maybe give us the option to hire some bodyguards. Or wait to travel with a caravan. I mean, it's a bit dumb that we're sent alone.
 

circ

Arcane
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
11,470
Location
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
You're probably missing something or has your skill points too spread around. I could totally avoid combat in the demo with my Praetor.

Yes, that probably is/was the reason.
But I'm not sure if I like that design. A preator is advocated as something between a fighter and a diplomat, isn't he?
So why is the only viable option the social skills one?
That way there either is no difficulty, because I raised the right skills, or winning is impossible and I have to restart/reload.
Also it seems a bit arbitrary which skills I am supposed to raise. Of course those skills are logical in terms of the presented solutions, but it only becomes apparent after you saw the available solutions, so there is little more than guesswork in advance.
Yeah that's doable. Personally I persuaded? not sure, some skill-ed the bandits into attacking the mine. Possibly only a merchant option.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
It's not exclusive to merchants. I think first you need to persuade Dellar into that course of action, then succeed on a mercantile or streetwise roll against the bandit leader.
 

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
you're arguing about something you like not being in the game. Not because it is needed, not because the game tries to do it. Just because you like it.

Product satisfaction is certainly a subjective thing, as is what would make a particular product more satisfying. I'm certain that applies to what is or isn't needed to whichever degree in AoD as well.

I don't think there's anything new to be said because my browbeating alert alarm is about to sound here

video games are video games, P&P is P&P. Why do we need to discuss what makes them different in order to evaluate whether AoD is good or not?

I think it's more of the perception of how to best provide an approximation of the P&P experience in videogame format

comparisons with the strengths of the source material and how to best translate them are inevitable since said videogame was inspired by the source material's structure and form and not a creation unto its own island

choices therefore have to be made on which aspects are now feasible and appropriate for the videogame format

people have opinions about the choices

the varied opinions have the consequence of heated international message board system user discourse or buttmad as experienced participants have described it

ROLE PLAYING GAMES HOBBY DISCUSSSIONNNNNNNN
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
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Messages
27,756
Location
Copenhagen
Escorts are planned but not implemented yet.

This is boss, and very important to me.

I've been playing some more, and I must say, I'm having fun. I just

got fucked over by Militades. I had seen it coming but I thought "what the hell". I then thought I had him pressed nicely into a corner after which he fucked me again. Nice :lol:

I died horribly of course. Was at three HP when the second fight broke out. The death-screen was glorious. This was one instance where I didn't mind dying at all. I mean, it made sense that I couldn't restore my wounds between the fights, and with my Praetor I'm not exactly a fighting machine (good block and hammer skill, good armor, but 30HP and 5STR), so it made sense. I shouldn't be able to live through that encounter, no way, and I don't see why the game should allow me to magically get out of the situation because I'm the PC.

It was an extremely nice encounter, and a very unique one at that. I don't remember any other game where a non-plot related but realistically deadly situation like this wasn't magically a non-issue because the PC is the PC.

Two things still suck though: the dialogue was awful. Cringe-worthy. I'm definetely dampening my expectations there. At some point I'll be able to read through the dialogue as information only, but it's sad in a game like this that dialogue doesn't support what the C&C is trying to do. The dialogue is pulling me out of any immersion I might have had, so the game is something of rollercoaster-ride between being immersed and being forcefully pushed out of that immersion by the dialogue. The other is my returning argument about combat difficulty. I won the fight against Militade's first two dudes very easily because I kept knocking one guy prone with my shield bash. Just to check, I reloaded, and sure enough the second time it was much, much tougher (as I indicated above, I ended the fight with 3HP this time) because I got two push-backs and only one knock-down with the bashes. Furthermore, the problem of too little to do in combat still sticks out.

I have one concession though... I didn't really think about the fact that the RNG automatically becomes less of a problem later because of generally higher chances on everything. Not sure yet, but it seems that way.

Anyway, I'm having a blast.
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I can't really enjoy the game as much as I would like due to the writing. I mean to play a little more every day- and I definitely enjoy the way it handles skill checks and skills and attributes, good work there-

But the writing? I think it needs an editor. I think there's far too much cussing. People don't cuss for no reason, not without coming of as comical. This may have worked for Deadwood, but it's not working for AoD, not for me. It comes off as juvenile and try-hard, as if we were going for a gritty, desolate sort of mood without actually reaching it.

I'd suggest different, more colorful, more setting-appropriate swears, or just less swearing in general. The writing also needs an editor who is a native English speaker and is not afraid to mess with "your vision" and not too concerned with upsetting you- else things like the assassin description slip past. ("Blood is blood." - maybe this works in French - it certainly works in German - but it most certainly does not work in English in the context it was used.)

I'll be more specific when I get more time play. The combat is great, by the way. I can't find a thing that bothers me in it yet. Other than the camera. Font size and changing camera angle are also really annoying, but people harped about this enough already.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Copenhagen
sgc_meltdown:

my browbeating alert alarm is about to sound here

Really..?

I think it's more of the perception of how to best provide an approximation of the P&P experience in videogame format

My question was: "Why do this?" or as I put it:

video games are video games, P&P is P&P.

comparisons with the strengths of the source material and how to best translate them are inevitable since said videogame was inspired by the source material's structure and form and not a creation unto its own island

Inevitable but not necessarily relevant.

choices therefore have to be made on which aspects are now feasible and appropriate for the videogame format

Yes, but you don't have to make comparisons between P&P and vidya-games to do that. You just take concrete examples and debate how and why they should be in the game. You have no reason to define the P&P-experience and say "we need this" or some shit like that.

Fuck, this is getting pretty hypothetical and theoretical and stupid. What I'm saying is that what you're saying doesn't relate to why P&P and how it is played is relevant when judging AoD and its design? And that's even if AoD was designed with P&P-philosophies in mind. The point is "do these mechanics hold up, are they fun?"

ROLE PLAYING GAMES HOBBY DISCUSSSIONNNNNNNN

?

i have no understanding of this humor and i must laugh
 

sgc_meltdown

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2003
Messages
6,000
i have no understanding of this humor and i must laugh

I wouldn't think too much about dissecting humor

that's what we have steely-eyed investigative sleuths of humanity like our bro wyrmlord for
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
23,995
Well if that what was posted on mediafire was the demo it had some glaring problems.

Your location wasn't on the map.
Map wasn't centered on character.
Keyboard can't be used for movement.
Certain resolution prevents increase in INT.
The city is static.
The camera is a mess.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
My impression is so far, that the game is too much hit or miss.
Either you succeed without problems or you fail totaly (most of the time, there is admittedly a "bad" solution to the bandits).
You can play a diplomat or a fighter, but something in between seems almost impossible, at least in the demo.
If I raise combat skills, I cannot raise social skills much and will fail the checks. If I raise social skills I will suck at combat.
And at least my Praetorians have not encountered any easy fights yet during their missions, as both bandit camp and outpost will have you vastly outnumbered. So I am supposed to play a diplomat here?
I think this is more a demo issue. The two other cities and most minor locations are cut off to you, so there's no way to raise skills once you're done with all the encounters in the area. It's only at the very end that you start to reach situations where you can think about developing secondary skills. On the one hand, it encourages min/maxing early on, as well as "grinding" encounters to get skill points. On the other hand, that's the trade-off you make when you do away with scaling and want to make an open game world meaningful, unless you want an "easy city, medium city, hard city" setup, or to end up maxing out in one location and then facing no challenge elsewhere in the game.

Comparisons to Fallout and "don't go to the Glow at level 1" or "don't fight the Raiders immediately after Shady Sands" are very apt, but we just can't see that because the demo is only a small part of the full game. And, I can attest that once you do boost up some of your secondary skills and spread things out, you start to see options pop up left and right. It's just hiding them from characters who have no skill that's throwing people off.

Why is a Preator then described as a kind of diplomatic fighter when early game revolves completely around diplomacy?
So I understand that you wanted combat to be dangerous and the game to be challenging, with bad choices leading to bad consequences. That's great, really!
However, I still think that you should provide the player with some sort of learning curve, not a learning wall, especially in terms of combat. And if the only way to do a mandatory mission is either to exclusively raise the right set of skills or impossible combat, something went wrong (probably just in my understanding of the options I have at hand, though, so please tell me if I missed something)-
I can't speak for every situation, but generally you aren't locked out of anything unless you just make bad decisions while building your character. Just like tagging Outdoorsman in Fallout and getting it to 100 ASAP, you can do dumb things. And while it's true in the demo, in the full game, my guess is there are no "mandatory" quests, because you can always go somewhere else. The fact is, there is no "idiot proof" path through the game. You cannot be a drooling simpleton with no skills and end up winning - your end will be a grave, and rightly so.

I do agree the early combat could be a little bit easier - but the unfortunate consequence is that you end up with a game where players go to combat for every situation and treat it as the default option, and that's definitely not what's intended. Balancing that curve would be exceptionally difficult given the variation in potential character builds. Fact is, if you pick Mercenary, keep your Strength, Dex and Constitution high, and put points into weapon skills and/or blocking, you will be able to finish that initial fight without too much trouble. And really, with shit equipment and little experience (it's made clear your character is only hired on for intimidation purposes, not because he/she's a great fighter), what do you expect to do against a seasoned assassin?

For the record - I died as a Praetor because I failed a skill check and ended up having to quell a peasant uprising by hand. Failure happens, but at least it happens both for combat and non-combat characters, and the early game Praetor path is definitely not exclusively diplomacy-focused. You can definitely be a fighter-diplomat, but that's the kind of thing that happens later in the game once you can actually survive and start accomplishing tasks. I mean, if you're a musician, do you practice guitar for a month and then move on to drums, and expect to be great at both? I think it's totally reasonable to expect players to have to specialize early on to get ahead.
 

Shiki

Learned
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
237
Location
Hell
This game could've been a visual novel with the combat parts attached as a special mechanics like in some JRPG. It plays too much like a VN when even the fucking sneak skill is a dialog option.
 

Cassidy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
7,922
Location
Vault City
I managed to mostly avoid combat with a thief, although it ended as very frustrating "raise skill x y times, see if will be enough, rinse repeat" process. In the end I had no option because I decided to attempt a thief build that is almost entirely about avoiding combat through stealth and subterfuge, only to discover that I invested way too much in disguise to get sneak high enough for a final check in the thieves guild quest line end. Fortunately thanks to upping critical strike allowing my character to take down a lone mercenary and having failed only once, in the final check, the battle was far more favorable than it would be otherwise, with all thieves having a nice distance from the all melee mercs when it began. With 50 crit strike, a repeating crossbow and lots of strong allies, despite having never invested a single point in the crossbow skill, I managed to score some devastating hits and to more or less win it unharmed. Of course 10 Dex and a high Per helped a lot too.

Speaking of the repeating crossbow, is it possible for characters other than members of the thieves guild to find one for sale? I presume it will only be available in a larger city in the final version.

Disguise, critical strike and sneak were the most demanding skill checks, followed by steal, streetwise and lockpick. Technically the critical strike and sneak checks can be replaced by persuade/streetwise depending on a different choice to get through in this one, but I decided to try a thief without investing in any conversation skill other than streetwise and disguise.

Some hints of what kind of skill you'll need most to get through would be very, very useful to make the game have less of such "Sierra game adventure where if you make the wrong choice you're screwed and have to play all over again from point x or even from the beginning", as would be to be able to get through avoiding combat with a bit less wide degree of demanding checks.
 

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