-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
Thursday is finally here.
- Thread starter skallagrim
- Start date
Not a bad game if you use ArtMoney and add about 50 more skill points in the beginning of the game. That way you don't have to play it as a shit russian RPG (like "Zlatogorye") where you must meta for quests, searching for one quest out of ten which you can solve with your current skillpoints, just to search the second of a bunch to get more SP, so you could solve the third, and so on. Would also be able to do some combat and talking together for a more rich gaming experience, because classic combat (with warrior type armor and weapons) is broken and requires a lot of SP, and if you try to play some characters as combat oriented (like Praetor or Mercenary) you may find it impossible to finish the demo as some "classes" lack enough quests to get SP, unless you, once again, drop weapon skills and start to build diplomacy char. Or meta and put 10 in INT, which is always a way to solve some of the balance issues, I guess.
Other way is to play a Drifter, who has the richest access to quests and gets a hoard of loot for free in the beginning of the game. Pretty broken guy too, IMO.
A lot of stuff I was afraid of to happen, happened to this game.
Ok...
Game mechanics:
- Reminds of this:
Yeah, the rule of three fails, but here it's much more book adventure like. Remember those maybe, "choose 1, 2 or 3.. if choose 3, go to page 33 and read what happened.. haha, u dead". Makes sense sometimes, but not the times when, say, you need 9 DEX to climb a wall, and if you have any less (like 8) hey man, a wall is a wall, like an Ultimas grass, a harsh and unforgiving environment, you think you can climb some wall and live to tell the tale? Fuck you. Dead...
- Dialogue:
...also, it's a lazy DM's syndrome. People don't do those "rapeges" that way, if there is a situation like talking your way out of something, people usually ROLEPLAY it, not roll three checks with multiple skills included. If you want your gamer to invest in gameplay, sometimes he must feel insecure and pay attention to what's happening. So amazing RPGs (like Torment) give you a handful of options, none of which seem like "perfect choice", and let pick one. Will you character do diplomacy with good or evil intentions, will he say truth or lie, will he be kind to every stranger because his momma told him to, or swear all the time? Of course, if there is no way to judge player's skill in a fair way (combat, bold diplomacy, sneak, lock picking), you use that handful instrument - skill checks. But skill checks are just that, instrument...
- Narrative:
Now I know why all happened like it happened, it's because there are so many character archetypes and you can't write 5-10 strokes of dialogue for each of them. So it's probably a forced measure and a choice... but it does't make it a good choice. Sure, you are free to choose your story in the character creation screen, and (to some degree) in the game, but is it really the point when you write RPG, to have everything meta'ed in the beginning? Should't your character have a lot of options to go that side or other side?
Make narrative less tight and chained to picked "class", broad dialogue and give more "human" and "common sense" options which don't require skill checks, and not only game would become more friendly to people who don't like to reload 15 times, but it would probably make for a richier experience, even if classes would feel less personal.
Once almost any character was made, the gameplay felt for me tight like anus. You want to continue your story somehow, oh you better put those 5 SP right now, or save those 10 for later, and try that and reload, and put them in other skill, or screw you, ur dead!
- Combat:
Which would happen a lot. Unlike combat demo, you don't have combat gradually grow in difficulty here and teach you about itself, and inserted in a gameplay with such a fuckload of skill checks, the combat formula is really moking you and make you feel yourself miserable (sometimes I felt like I was mechanically "running out of luck", with death waiting for me at the end even if odds were suddenly in my favor... like game was cheating). In postapoc you must be prepared for combat and play it on your terms, which makes sense. And sometimes it does, and sometimes it's done well (thief ambush with explosions and crossbows... crossbows are weak? well not when there are 4 of them point blank on you after some boom-boom, shithead), but... you need non-combat skills to do it! Well, does make some sense too, BUT sometimes you need more than one skill, and inside your class narrative, SPs are tight, so... to prepare for combat and be a smart fighter, you should sacrifice fighting skills and do more dialogue.. effectivily making you less a fighter.. and not having fun by playing a fighter. Snake eats it's tail.
IMO demo needs something like combat demo arena. Maybe an underground fighting club with about three fights, which would add to (now really tight) SP pool, and in the meantime serve as a tutorial. Fallout had rats for it, Arcanum - wolves and lepricones.
Also:
1) When you are bashed with a shield, it hurts. Giving Shield Bash some damage (1d3 to small shields, 1d4 to larger ones) and finishing moves would make shield combat more visceral and awesome and realistic.
2) Giving hits on opponents who are knocked down larger critical threat or something would do combat good too.
Also, some criticals should daze enemy for more than 1 round, imo.
3) I don't see a reason for restricted disengagement with enemy if you are hit by his AOO. AOOs are OK by themselves, but why do they restrict movement? What, a sword wraps around your hand like a snake or something?
- Interacting with game environment:
It was really easy in Fallout. You press a button, and a skill happens. Button -> Skill. They were connected. But then came the TAB button, and 3D, and everything, and the feeling of being smart by clicking right spot was lost. So, AoD is an isometric RPG, but you don't want to ressurect that awesome feature in it? Why? Test players perception, game knowledge and character knowledge by giving an option of using some skills on some objects (or just clicking on them, like in loremaster's house). For now, there is only combat and dialogue in the game, and they are separated so much, that RPGeenes feels almost absent. IMO, statics and items interaction is a big part of gameplay which adds to players immershun. So it's an RPG, but you can't even use a Lockpick skill on a door before you have a reason to do so by gaining some obscure rumour quest? Exploring + Interaction = Glue for other parts of the game. And freedom.
- Interface:
1) Place a marker for player on a map.
2) Move the dialogue screen for NPC talk to bottom, like in most of the other RPGs. There is a reason why it's done that way - when NPC portrait and his speech bubble is close to dialogue options, gamers eyes don't need to go up and down to read them, so it is both easer to read, comprehend and pick lines. You also keep your eyes on NPC's portrait, so its more immershun that way.
3) If you make small icons for various attacks (fast attack, power attack, etc.) and put them at the top of weapon box, you will save one mouse click.
- Loot drop and crafting:
I felt it was pretty balanced along the demo, you can get a lot of equipment and test it, and even if creating a "...bows like that are made in no less than a year" with some clicks is abstract, it's almost Arcanum fun (but game needs more gadgets and potions and stuff). Like the LBs and how important it for a fighter to also keep his equipment top notch.
Dirty tunics and sticks drops are other the top though, I think noone would miss loot from some dirty peasants, really.
- Setting:
Did't feel roman enough for me. IMO you missed the opportunity for true decadence, love and tears, drama and heroics (like in Spartacus), opportunity for fat half naked lords making full of them bellies laying with slaves on marble benches (insted your decadent lord looks like mage from Neverwinter Nights), rice and bean cakes, seven hills, antique buildings, truly smelly taverns... also, magic, the Augur one, and witchery and amulets, and rituals with incesties and birds shit, most of that was replaced by arabic and steampunk/lovecraft theme? Really? Dunnoh, it's certanly your and unique setting, but it's such a load of missed opportunities for tasteful setting with truly romanish decadence... just makes me scratch my head.
Think I've done. Don't really have anything more to say about game. Played it a lot, both fair and with artmoneyz to meta and see all the quests and all items and stuff.
P.S. If I won't know what blue jellyfish artefact does, I'll suicide.
Other way is to play a Drifter, who has the richest access to quests and gets a hoard of loot for free in the beginning of the game. Pretty broken guy too, IMO.
A lot of stuff I was afraid of to happen, happened to this game.
Ok...
Game mechanics:
- Reminds of this:
Yeah, the rule of three fails, but here it's much more book adventure like. Remember those maybe, "choose 1, 2 or 3.. if choose 3, go to page 33 and read what happened.. haha, u dead". Makes sense sometimes, but not the times when, say, you need 9 DEX to climb a wall, and if you have any less (like 8) hey man, a wall is a wall, like an Ultimas grass, a harsh and unforgiving environment, you think you can climb some wall and live to tell the tale? Fuck you. Dead...
- Dialogue:
...also, it's a lazy DM's syndrome. People don't do those "rapeges" that way, if there is a situation like talking your way out of something, people usually ROLEPLAY it, not roll three checks with multiple skills included. If you want your gamer to invest in gameplay, sometimes he must feel insecure and pay attention to what's happening. So amazing RPGs (like Torment) give you a handful of options, none of which seem like "perfect choice", and let pick one. Will you character do diplomacy with good or evil intentions, will he say truth or lie, will he be kind to every stranger because his momma told him to, or swear all the time? Of course, if there is no way to judge player's skill in a fair way (combat, bold diplomacy, sneak, lock picking), you use that handful instrument - skill checks. But skill checks are just that, instrument...
- Narrative:
Now I know why all happened like it happened, it's because there are so many character archetypes and you can't write 5-10 strokes of dialogue for each of them. So it's probably a forced measure and a choice... but it does't make it a good choice. Sure, you are free to choose your story in the character creation screen, and (to some degree) in the game, but is it really the point when you write RPG, to have everything meta'ed in the beginning? Should't your character have a lot of options to go that side or other side?
Make narrative less tight and chained to picked "class", broad dialogue and give more "human" and "common sense" options which don't require skill checks, and not only game would become more friendly to people who don't like to reload 15 times, but it would probably make for a richier experience, even if classes would feel less personal.
Once almost any character was made, the gameplay felt for me tight like anus. You want to continue your story somehow, oh you better put those 5 SP right now, or save those 10 for later, and try that and reload, and put them in other skill, or screw you, ur dead!
- Combat:
Which would happen a lot. Unlike combat demo, you don't have combat gradually grow in difficulty here and teach you about itself, and inserted in a gameplay with such a fuckload of skill checks, the combat formula is really moking you and make you feel yourself miserable (sometimes I felt like I was mechanically "running out of luck", with death waiting for me at the end even if odds were suddenly in my favor... like game was cheating). In postapoc you must be prepared for combat and play it on your terms, which makes sense. And sometimes it does, and sometimes it's done well (thief ambush with explosions and crossbows... crossbows are weak? well not when there are 4 of them point blank on you after some boom-boom, shithead), but... you need non-combat skills to do it! Well, does make some sense too, BUT sometimes you need more than one skill, and inside your class narrative, SPs are tight, so... to prepare for combat and be a smart fighter, you should sacrifice fighting skills and do more dialogue.. effectivily making you less a fighter.. and not having fun by playing a fighter. Snake eats it's tail.
IMO demo needs something like combat demo arena. Maybe an underground fighting club with about three fights, which would add to (now really tight) SP pool, and in the meantime serve as a tutorial. Fallout had rats for it, Arcanum - wolves and lepricones.
Also:
1) When you are bashed with a shield, it hurts. Giving Shield Bash some damage (1d3 to small shields, 1d4 to larger ones) and finishing moves would make shield combat more visceral and awesome and realistic.
2) Giving hits on opponents who are knocked down larger critical threat or something would do combat good too.
Also, some criticals should daze enemy for more than 1 round, imo.
3) I don't see a reason for restricted disengagement with enemy if you are hit by his AOO. AOOs are OK by themselves, but why do they restrict movement? What, a sword wraps around your hand like a snake or something?
- Interacting with game environment:
It was really easy in Fallout. You press a button, and a skill happens. Button -> Skill. They were connected. But then came the TAB button, and 3D, and everything, and the feeling of being smart by clicking right spot was lost. So, AoD is an isometric RPG, but you don't want to ressurect that awesome feature in it? Why? Test players perception, game knowledge and character knowledge by giving an option of using some skills on some objects (or just clicking on them, like in loremaster's house). For now, there is only combat and dialogue in the game, and they are separated so much, that RPGeenes feels almost absent. IMO, statics and items interaction is a big part of gameplay which adds to players immershun. So it's an RPG, but you can't even use a Lockpick skill on a door before you have a reason to do so by gaining some obscure rumour quest? Exploring + Interaction = Glue for other parts of the game. And freedom.
- Interface:
1) Place a marker for player on a map.
2) Move the dialogue screen for NPC talk to bottom, like in most of the other RPGs. There is a reason why it's done that way - when NPC portrait and his speech bubble is close to dialogue options, gamers eyes don't need to go up and down to read them, so it is both easer to read, comprehend and pick lines. You also keep your eyes on NPC's portrait, so its more immershun that way.
3) If you make small icons for various attacks (fast attack, power attack, etc.) and put them at the top of weapon box, you will save one mouse click.
- Loot drop and crafting:
I felt it was pretty balanced along the demo, you can get a lot of equipment and test it, and even if creating a "...bows like that are made in no less than a year" with some clicks is abstract, it's almost Arcanum fun (but game needs more gadgets and potions and stuff). Like the LBs and how important it for a fighter to also keep his equipment top notch.
Dirty tunics and sticks drops are other the top though, I think noone would miss loot from some dirty peasants, really.
- Setting:
Did't feel roman enough for me. IMO you missed the opportunity for true decadence, love and tears, drama and heroics (like in Spartacus), opportunity for fat half naked lords making full of them bellies laying with slaves on marble benches (insted your decadent lord looks like mage from Neverwinter Nights), rice and bean cakes, seven hills, antique buildings, truly smelly taverns... also, magic, the Augur one, and witchery and amulets, and rituals with incesties and birds shit, most of that was replaced by arabic and steampunk/lovecraft theme? Really? Dunnoh, it's certanly your and unique setting, but it's such a load of missed opportunities for tasteful setting with truly romanish decadence... just makes me scratch my head.
Think I've done. Don't really have anything more to say about game. Played it a lot, both fair and with artmoneyz to meta and see all the quests and all items and stuff.
P.S. If I won't know what blue jellyfish artefact does, I'll suicide.
sgc_meltdown
Arcane
- Joined
- May 8, 2003
- Messages
- 6,000
Shadenuat here reminds me of a more energetic and cranky CorpseZeb.
also
also
simply exquisite
Finished some more times the demo, all I can say it's the more I put into it, the more I like. There are fucking countless ways of doing everything, is kind of scary/exciting to imagine how big the full game will be. People are mentioning a strong CYOA books feeling, and I really enjoy it, it's a different concept from Fallout or Arcanum, but a good one nevertheless.
About the combat, yes, the first fight is possibly one of the hardest, but it's a skippable challenge, and every battle after is very balanced if you are doing a combat character. The final ones I did, attacking the caravan and latter escorting it, felt like a true Tactical RPG game (but with one party menber). I'm actually worried a little about the combat becoming easier as the game progress. My hammer/shield mercenary was getting quite powerful. I won the 3x1 fight against the asshole blacksmith, but didn't manage to beat the muggers hideout fight. Still, with that sweet armor & points I got from the gate final fight, I could probably do it...
Just one request: Allow me to not be teleported out immediatly after finishing the Merchant story...not being able to sneak through the bandit's ambush and having to fight at the very end, knowing that I just won like 10 skillpoints that I cound't spend was very annoying.
About the combat, yes, the first fight is possibly one of the hardest, but it's a skippable challenge, and every battle after is very balanced if you are doing a combat character. The final ones I did, attacking the caravan and latter escorting it, felt like a true Tactical RPG game (but with one party menber). I'm actually worried a little about the combat becoming easier as the game progress. My hammer/shield mercenary was getting quite powerful. I won the 3x1 fight against the asshole blacksmith, but didn't manage to beat the muggers hideout fight. Still, with that sweet armor & points I got from the gate final fight, I could probably do it...
Just one request: Allow me to not be teleported out immediatly after finishing the Merchant story...not being able to sneak through the bandit's ambush and having to fight at the very end, knowing that I just won like 10 skillpoints that I cound't spend was very annoying.
Oriebam
Formerly M4AE1BR0-something
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2011
- Messages
- 6,193
did you knock shit out often? how does that work?
I have 9 action points, and 10 perception so it's easy to hit even with heavy armor & shield (but I don't use heavy helmets). I focus on block and hammers, and mix power attacks and aimed shots to the head or hands with quick attacks and shield bash. I knock them down quite often with head strikes and even shield bash criticals. Ranged enemies almost never hit me, swords and daggers have lot's of trouble getting through my high DR and Block, and enemies with axes or hammers I take down quickly with head strikes or keep disarming them.
But I still don't understand aimed attacks well...I didn't see much difference in doing power attacks and head strikes with the hammer, perhaps because is a blunt weapon. I'll try a 12 Action Points Rogue doing only aimed shots with daggers & swords to understand the difference...
Excidium
P. banal
Aimed shots on the legs may cripple the target, and on the arms may disarm them.
Clockwork Knight
Arcane
Fallout confirmed for awesome button.
edit:
Even better than the gamer tales are the neckbeards raging about the story of how a guardsman succeeded at something other than dying horribly, because grimdark
It takes talent to make 40k sound boring, but fa/tg/uys are fucking amazing at it
"So they have this really horrible genocidal thing that they use as a last resort, you see...but they use it all the time! Often for shits and gigges! They're just that nasty!"
Just remebered, the demo already has a help guide: :p
So a rogue with daggers against a armored foe should use Torso attacks to get past DR, not power ones...good to know.
Also, my bro stats at the end, just after winning the gate fight:
14 bodies and 1 epic combat count! Proably that's why my intimidate worked so well on the mercenaries.
Sweet armor and masterwork hammer. Before the battle I was using the 1200 gold amor the blacksmith sells.
EDIT: BRBRBRBR combo! É duas da manhã, vamo dormir galera!
So a rogue with daggers against a armored foe should use Torso attacks to get past DR, not power ones...good to know.
Also, my bro stats at the end, just after winning the gate fight:
14 bodies and 1 epic combat count! Proably that's why my intimidate worked so well on the mercenaries.
Sweet armor and masterwork hammer. Before the battle I was using the 1200 gold amor the blacksmith sells.
EDIT: BRBRBRBR combo! É duas da manhã, vamo dormir galera!
Reject_666_6
Arcane
Please VD tell me what Jellyfish device is for! 
Gord
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 7,049
At least for my Praetor that option didn't present itself.
Don't know if I'm maybe just lacking the necessary skill or if it's not available for a Praetor.
Or maybe I'm just dumb or blind and didn't see what to do.
I looked around the town in hope to find something, like hire a few mercenaries in the tavern, or such, but did not get much dialogue at all from most people.
The Praetor in the demo seems to have a rather confined list of options:
Build etiquette, persuasion, disguise and ancient lore, then just click through the dialogue options. Not much deviation possible so far.
Will continue when I'm back at home though and also test other characters to see if they offer more potential variety.
Lumpy
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2005
- Messages
- 8,525
Uh, no, you can go and solve each Praetor quest by killing everyone involved.
And, solving the last quest through combat leads to a 'bad' ending, so investing points in talking is strongly supported.
Johannes
Arcane
The solution to people being forced to min/max and grind for encounters/quests, is just giving skillpoints earlier instead of later.
Now the hard part of the game is to metagame to get every skillpoint your measly starter PC can get, but it eases from there especially when you have the whole world open to you.
Just ease on the early game a bit, and give people enough points to spread around a bit right from the start - then if the game overall feels too easy, cut down on quest rewards. And/or make certain options (for example, combat solutions where you didn't get any advantage from other skills beforehand) tougher than they are now.
circ
Arcane
Ok gaize? Who do I kill not to a. get driven the fuck out and b. not be constantly hassled by the fucking guards?
Slaves give 0 SP's, so that's pointless.
Slaves give 0 SP's, so that's pointless.
circ
Arcane
I killed a slave and got a wooden stick, that worked for decomposing. Anyone with a stick I guess, you get a few of those later in the thief guild quest, but by then it's probably too late.
Excidium
P. banal
I knock people unconscious all the time with my shield bash. It either does that or push them back a square or two.
You're right about the skills, but some streetwise and trading also helps.
I'm guessing you're blind then. :p I just did it with a Preator and here's the whole text-adventure for that path: http://imgur.com/a/4Ip9H
You're right about the skills, but some streetwise and trading also helps.
I knocked some bros down with the shield, but they get up on their turn. With the hammer attack on the head they sometimes stayed 1-2 turns in the floor, but I don't think you can make people uncouncious for more than that...
Gord
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2011
- Messages
- 7,049
Ah, it's an high-INT option. I had reduced the intelligence by one point, making that option not show up.
I went with the disguise option, after enough reloads I had the requirements figured out and could beat the mine that way.
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.