Thursday is finally here.

[Monocause]

Some basic impressions (some of these might've been already addressed):

1) Game is too unforgiving. Simple. Now, Vince, I know that this is a hardcore game, and being a p. hardcore guy I reloaded and tried multiple options until I got it right but most folks (including your target audience) won't. The codexers and ITS forum members know a lot about the game and have the idea that "the effort will be worth it", most gamers that haven't heard of you or AoD before simply won't, because it's not fun to start a reloading session during the first 5-10 minutes spent on the game.

A properly done challenging game always starts out relatively easy so that the player can familiarise himself with the game mechanics, the game world, basic tactics. AoD is like a big "fuck you" painted red all over the screen; the moment you make a mistake is the moment that you die. That's right, you're totally fucked until you 'get it right'. This is fine as long as the game has a learning curve to speak of, and this game has one only if the player is one persistent motherfucker.

Take the assassin vignette (and this is a good example as the "assassin" choice is one of the most enticing of all the options in chargen). Back when I first ran the game I started out with the preset stats, spread my SP along dagger, crit strike, dodge and sneak - sounds reasonable for an assasin to develop these. Now, at that inn I tried persuading the bodyguard to just leave, failed. Had the option to leave just with the parchment but hey "this guy is just a local brawler and I'm a trained assassin", I thought, "besides, this is the first fight in the game, right?". And then I saw the "you're fucked" message.

The first few challenges before the player should be relatively easy to overcome as long as he doesn't do anything really stupid. Pretty sure I didn't when starting out with the assassin, just that odds were way too even (or even seemed in favour of the other guy if I chose the 'throw crossbow' option and failed). I netted the guy, used aimed attacks and stuff like that and finally emerged victorious yet it still seemed that if the rolls would favour me less I'd be pretty much dead even though I used quite a few of the resources at my PCs disposal.

I think you were a bit too rigid with that hardcore thing. The game would be no less hardcore and challenging if you gave the player some breathing space at the very beginning. Let him get away with a couple of early mistakes so that he learns to avoid them in the future, make a poor stat/skill choice less punishing in the beginning so that the player can reroll at some point with a clue of what will be actually useful due to in-game experience, not wild guesses or 'common sense'; or, if you'd rather not do that then implement an in-game optional abstracted (as in, a fourth-wall breaking) tutorial where the player could create a character and you'd explain to him in a couple of combat and non-combat situations how he should capitalise on his strengths and avoid situations in which he would have to rely on his weaknesses, like "There are two well-armed guards before you. Are you confident that you can take them on? Because if you aren't, you'll probably die. Think carefully, combat is always dangerous." or "There are four well-armed elite guards before you. If you try to pick a fight you are certain to lose. Try to find a peaceful solution by using your strongest non-combat skills."

1a) When starting with a 4 CON assassin the chargen stated I've 30 HP while in the fight I somehow had only 20.

2) The soundscape is extremely lacking. Each and every place seems desolate; there are no sound effects to speak of and the rather gloomy reverb-heavy melodic music only adds to that. Even introducing a basic soft sound of footsteps would improve it a lot; ideally each distinct location type should have its own set of ambience. "City sound", "tavern sound", "cave sounds" etc.

You can look to Fallout for an example. The soundscape wasn't exactly rich but there was enough SFX to make it seem alive in many locations (guards checking their weapons, doors opening, some short ambient sounds repeated at a fairly random interval) and Morgan's music often incorporated some ambient sounds that fit the location (the sound of typing and a muffled 'radio voice' in the Vault, some muffled yelling at the Khans/the Den etc).

On the more budget side of gaming there're Vogel games which manage fairly well with what limited resources SW has. Locations have a simple and short (yet falling into the background nicely) ambient loop and there are some basic SFX like footsteps, doors etc. This is the least you could do for AoD.

Alternatively, if you can't be arsed to spend time and effort on the soundscape then you really need to change the music. It's not background music as it is, it's foreground music, grips the attention too much and becomes a distraction. It could work only if it were much more low-key than it is now - slower tempo, weaken the lead section and expand the rythmic one, sounds more sparse with half and quarter notes dominant.
And it definitely should use less reverb and be less reliant on constant pad and choir sound in the back. This works when there's a vibrant (and reverb-less) soundscape to fill the space. The current tracks would fit a movie more than a computer game; the result was that after fifteen minutes of gameplay I turned off the music altogether and my experience got better, but most folks won't notice that the music is getting on their nerves and just feel tired when playing.

3) The UI still needs some work. I'd experiment with the transparency of the text boxes and look at the fonts again. I can't really name it but something seems off to me, reading isn't as easy as it should be. Chargen seems cluttered.

4) My very first experience with the demo: I click on "Options", the game crashes. Woot.

On a more positive note, the game does pull you in later on but I'm afraid that the first three points I mentioned will make most people uninstall. First impressions are always important and that's a department in which the demo is sorely lacking.
Hope you guys iron out all this before the final release

 

[Kaol]

Some basic impressions (some of these might've been already addressed):

1) Game is too unforgiving. Simple. Now, Vince, I know that this is a hardcore game, and being a p. hardcore guy I reloaded and tried multiple options until I got it right but most folks (including your target audience) won't. The codexers and ITS forum members know a lot about the game and have the idea that "the effort will be worth it", most gamers that haven't heard of you or AoD before simply won't, because it's not fun to start a reloading session during the first 5-10 minutes spent on the game.

A properly done challenging game always starts out relatively easy so that the player can familiarise himself with the game mechanics, the game world, basic tactics. AoD is like a big "fuck you" painted red all over the screen; the moment you make a mistake is the moment that you die. That's right, you're totally fucked until you 'get it right'. This is fine as long as the game has a learning curve to speak of, and this game has one only if the player is one persistent motherfucker.

Take the assassin vignette (and this is a good example as the "assassin" choice is one of the most enticing of all the options in chargen). Back when I first ran the game I started out with the preset stats, spread my SP along dagger, crit strike, dodge and sneak - sounds reasonable for an assasin to develop these. Now, at that inn I tried persuading the bodyguard to just leave, failed. Had the option to leave just with the parchment but hey "this guy is just a local brawler and I'm a trained assassin", I thought, "besides, this is the first fight in the game, right?". And then I saw the "you're fucked" message.

The first few challenges before the player should be relatively easy to overcome as long as he doesn't do anything really stupid. Pretty sure I didn't when starting out with the assassin, just that odds were way too even (or even seemed in favour of the other guy if I chose the 'throw crossbow' option and failed). I netted the guy, used aimed attacks and stuff like that and finally emerged victorious yet it still seemed that if the rolls would favour me less I'd be pretty much dead even though I used quite a few of the resources at my PCs disposal.

I think you were a bit too rigid with that hardcore thing. The game would be no less hardcore and challenging if you gave the player some breathing space at the very beginning. Let him get away with a couple of early mistakes so that he learns to avoid them in the future, make a poor stat/skill choice less punishing in the beginning so that the player can reroll at some point with a clue of what will be actually useful due to in-game experience, not wild guesses or 'common sense'; or, if you'd rather not do that then implement an in-game optional abstracted (as in, a fourth-wall breaking) tutorial where the player could create a character and you'd explain to him in a couple of combat and non-combat situations how he should capitalise on his strengths and avoid situations in which he would have to rely on his weaknesses, like "There are two well-armed guards before you. Are you confident that you can take them on? Because if you aren't, you'll probably die. Think carefully, combat is always dangerous." or "There are four well-armed elite guards before you. If you try to pick a fight you are certain to lose. Try to find a peaceful solution by using your strongest non-combat skills."

2) The soundscape is extremely lacking. Each and every place seems desolate; there are no sound effects to speak of and the rather gloomy music only adds to that. Even introducing a basic soft sound of footsteps would improve it a lot.

3) The UI still needs some work. I'd experiment with the transparency of the text boxes and look for some fonts. I can't really name it but something seems off to me, reading isn't as easy as it should be. Chargen seems cluttered.

4) My very first experience with the demo: I click on "Options", the game crashes. Woot.

On a more positive note, the game does pull you in later on but I'm afraid that the first three points I mentioned will make most people uninstall. First impressions are always important and that's a department in which the demo is sorely lacking. Hope you guys iron out all this before the final release

Yeah i agree with this, i'm all for things being challenging but often the game gives you unwinnable situations even though you made logical choices with your character.

 

[Grunker]

You can look to Fallout for an example. The soundscape wasn't exactly rich but there was enough SFX to make it seem alive in many locations (guards checking their weapons, doors opening, some short ambient sounds repeated at a fairly random interval) and Morgan's music often incorporated some ambient sounds that fit the location (the sound of typing and a muffled 'radio voice' in the Vault, some muffled yelling at the Khans/the Den etc).

On the more budget side of gaming there're Vogel games which manage fairly well with what limited resources SW has. Locations have a simple and short (yet falling into the background nicely) ambient loop and there are some basic SFX like footsteps, doors etc. This is the least you could do for AoD.

This is a good point.

 

[Infinitron]

Anybody posted these yet?

 

[Marsal]

VD should watch this one.

 

[Grunker]

VD should watch this one.

wow

 

[Pelvis Knot]

VD should watch this one.

So this is the audience bio and beth must cater to to be profitable... And you people wonder why their games are never accessible enough?

 

[Raghar]

It took me while before I discovered I don't have to prepare ammunition before combat.

In addition, there is glaring problem with start of the combat.
1. Your prepared weapons disappear for some reason, and are either replaced by something random, or you are unarmed.
2. You can't initiate combat at any point. I remember on what someone said about VtM :B. "... or you can kill them, you have always that option." That was nice thing on VtM :B, you had always this option, even in situation where it was stupid and counterproductive. For example in the museum. On the other hand when you played as Gangrel, you probably should go medieval, and the prince would be livid.

Spoiler

For example in that assasination mission with these spies. You can't decide to kill them when you are presented with options 1. look at bed 2. leave.
So ultimately it ends. 1. You are stabbed. 2. You don't, but you start for some reason close to them, and they have a surprise round.

Then you have problem with perception checks. Quick finding do depend on perception, you have a limited time to find stuff, thus perception, and experience in finding the stuff, matters. In long term searches Intelligence maters more.
So you could add a sentence for these who failed PER check, but didn't INT check. "After hour of searching by dividing floor into clusters, you were finally able to find these fucking documents. At least you gained some experience, thus you have + 2 bonus to PER because of your INT thus you are finally as capable as an average person, and all future searches wouldn't take HOUR+. That was embarrassing."

3. Streetwise doesn't give bonuses to disguise, and neither does etiquette.
4. And also. You start in quite bad positions for some reason. BG2. You are starting in bad scripted positions. KoTR. You are starting in bad scripted positions. Some people would learn from mistakes, and at least they will not make them frequent.
5. Demo was much harsher than the real game.

Skills don't show how advanced you are in comparison to a normal person. AKA no description: crappy, mediocre, somewhat passable...
Skills are flat. Thus they are encouraging to have extremely high skill numbers in two or three skills, and not care much about other skills.

 

[Angelo85]

That video is comedy gold! :D
I'm only half way through watching at the moment, still so far the failtrain hasn't disappointed.

Someone should forward that vid to Bioware so they can witness what they did to the current RPG generation first hand.

 

[likaq]

Author of that video should be sterilized to prevent his defective genes from passing to the next generation.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Played through the demo - it's a total clusterfuck. I won't go through my arguments for long since all those things were already said in this thread (and it's fucking scary to see Skyway right, for example), so simply and shortly:

1. Combat - is boring and dull. No, it's not hard - it's more, like, bifurcal, when it's hell when your build is shit and is a breeze when your build is right and you have good items. It's all abound your stats and how decently have you grinded, tactics almost don't matter - different attacks, for all their variety, are almost useful. I mean, called shots bring on limbs no real profit since they lower your DPS significantly for the sake of what? Wasting 2 AP on a single enemy? Yeah. Called shots on head are really hard to perform and DPS increase is just not worth the fuss, especially when the knockdown is much easier achieved with either hammers or crossbows. Crossbows, as well as bows, are horribly underpowered in the demo, but I guess that's cause you can't easily craft them, but I digress. Whirlwind is decent, but it's kinda popamole nobrainer choice in terms of tactics. Flurry is either hit or miss, totally build dependent. There are also nets and bolas and maybe some other stuff to help you against tough enemies, but they are also a nobrainer - oh, I am pitched against a single powerful enemy (like that centurion in the assassin's ending), what do I do? Ri-i-ight. Basically, combat is a turn based popamole - I commend, I commend.

2. Questing - when gaming becomes metagaming. Honestly, it's all about hoarding your skillpoints and savescumming to distribute them rightly. Sure, at times skillcheck fails open another path, but it's usually a significantly worse one and often no such things happen - you're just getting stuck with another "fuck you" death screen. Nice design, nice design, totally missing the point of C&C. And the point is that I, the fucking player, want to make the choice in the manner I want, not in the way you're shoving them on me. To bring out the derpiest example, if I am an assassin and I am sent to kill some spies in the building and I open the door to that building and I see them immediately in a combat unready positions and there's a fucking loaded crossbow in my hand, what do I do? I fucking unload it, then load it again and unload it some more, I don't fucking go and ask about their health issues because at the moment I AM their fucking health issue. Fuck, way, way too many times the game offers choice between being dumbfuck in one way or being dumbfuck in the other way (and mind you, I play with 10 INT and 6-10 PE on my chars), what's with the fucking bioware choice here? Yeah, that's right, a fucking biowhorish choice - the problem there is not in choosing between majestically good and extremely renegade, but in acting like a moron either way and it's the same shit here. Fuck.
Oh, and there's too much swearing in the game. Not that I mind, but take, for example, Fallout 2 - profanity there was written absolutely fun and it was joy to read all those combat insults, while here the enemies say what? Meager "fuck you"s? Intimidating.

3. Writing - is mediocre. There are some good parts in the game, but for the most parts it is pretty unexciting and, most importantly, there's too little exposition in the game, too little lore. I mean, so I have this choice to join house Daratan, but what do I know about it? Pretty much nothing. Oh, its leader likes the relics of the past and wants to reunite the empire, yeah, that's cool, but what about habits of the house? Its preferences, its tactics, its public outlook, what about that? I mean, take a look at Vogel's Geneforge games (good example since they're also indie, have greyscale morality and feature faction choices) - man goes through great lengths to define the factions and give you enough knowledge to either love or hate them (and, what was the best about first two Geneforges, or ignore them completely), but what is here? We have lots of factions, but they are all what? Tough motherfuckers who care only about their money and power because it's a grimdark world, after all? Cool. That's the biggest problem with grimdark settings - when everyone is shit, it's tough to sympathize with anyone, and while this can be avoided by having good, really good and charismatic characters (like, he's a motherfucker, but he is a good motherfucker), there are no good characters here, mostly due to the fact that dialogues are scarce and you don't get to know anyone. So you can't help but see the world just as the means to grind money, skill points and artifacts, which can hardly be called interesting.

4. Optimisation - game runs like shit, and, with the number of fixes team probably has to do and the number of team members, that probably won't change for better. Load screens suck.

5. Music - mediocre. It's not bad, but there's not much of it and it grows stale fast which is bad for a game that you should replay over and over and over again.

6. Wasted efforts - the game is full of embarassingly needless stuff. Like, it's cool to have a unique death message for every single battle (despite them being a huge "fuck you" from the developer to the gamer which is always a bad thing to do), but I'd rather preferred to see all those efforts redirected in creating more dialogues, since I've stopped reading death screens eventually and the game is catastrophically low on lore atm. Like, sure, if you'll play through it with all different classes and paths, you'll get enough lore(perhaps, I'm not sure), but who would replay it if their first run will be boring? And it doesn't change the fact that most NPCs are badly characterized and stuff. And that's just a single example, this game is full of extra corners while the main avenue remains unpolished and rocky.

Still, I've had some enjoyment with the demo, but not more than, let's mention them again, Vogel's games, and the old bearded troll basically shits them while final AoD version will come, like, when? And that guy, while not bereft of personality issues, at least doesn't go in a full retardo "John Romero will make you his bitch" mode. AoD can be enjoyed, I guess, but it has many flaws and is certainly not the cRPG messiah everyone was hoping for and question may be posed as for whether it is a fully pledged RPG at all because, as it is, it really is closer to adventure genre.

 

[Marsal]

I think you are being too harsh. I thought the guy was fairly intelligent, but conditioned by playing modern games with emphasis on action and combat. And I think not everything he did wrong was his fault. AoD is not the game with the best designed UI, if we're honest. Quite a few codexers didn't figure how to decompose things until told, it took me couple of minutes of frustration with character position not being marked on the map to figure out you could quick travel by clicking the locations on the map (this guy figured it very quickly). He did "adapt" fairly quickly, just didn't want or had the time to go in depth with how the game works.

This is how an average RPG gamer will react to AoD. Not an average Xbox kiddie, but an average gamer that plays and likes RPGs, but is not "hardcore" enough to read the manual or learn the rules beforehand and expects to be taught to play while playing. Now, VD may say "good fucking riddance", but IMO he is excluding a lot of potential players with this attitude. Not just Biodrones and Bethtards, but people who know no better than mainstream current generation games. How are you going to build an audience for a hypothetical "RPG revival" if you alienate the players that need just a little pull to be drawn to the dark side world of quality RPGs? Kickstarting Wasteland 2 and similar games only goes so far...

 

[Excidium]

This is how an average RPG gamer will react to AoD. Not an average Xbox kiddie, but an average gamer that plays and likes RPGs, but is not "hardcore" enough to read the manual or learn the rules beforehand and expects to be taught to play while playing. Now, VD may say "good fucking riddance", but IMO he is excluding a lot of potential players with this attitude. Not just Biodrones and Bethtards, but people who know no better than mainstream current generation games. How are you going to build an audience for a hypothetical "RPG revival" if you alienate the players that need just a little pull to be drawn to the dark side world of quality RPGs? Kickstarting Wasteland 2 and similar games only goes so far...

People that would also be a lot more forgiving of the dumb design decisions in this game because they simply don't know any better. Also, isn't playing super hard games the kool thing nowadays? I mean, the word that the plebs can barely get through the first fight should spread around the dark places of the internet...

 

[Grunker]

it's a total clusterfuck.

Sorry bro, but the only thing that is a total clusterfuck is your post.

I want to read - looks like you've put some thought into it. But make it readable first, please.

 

[Infinitron]

What's the meaning of "DPS" in a turn-based game? o_O

 

[Commissar Draco]

VD should watch this one.

So this is the audience bio and beth choose to whore themselfs to...

Fixed Also who was an author of 1st vid? Sounded somehow and knew you should not choose your PC according to boob size nor skip dialogues.

 

[Marsal]

This is how an average RPG gamer will react to AoD. Not an average Xbox kiddie, but an average gamer that plays and likes RPGs, but is not "hardcore" enough to read the manual or learn the rules beforehand and expects to be taught to play while playing. Now, VD may say "good fucking riddance", but IMO he is excluding a lot of potential players with this attitude. Not just Biodrones and Bethtards, but people who know no better than mainstream current generation games. How are you going to build an audience for a hypothetical "RPG revival" if you alienate the players that need just a little pull to be drawn to the dark side world of quality RPGs? Kickstarting Wasteland 2 and similar games only goes so far...

People that would also be a lot more forgiving of the dumb design decisions in this game because they simply don't know any better. Also, isn't playing super hard games the kool thing nowadays? I mean, the word that the plebs can barely get through the first fight should spread around the dark places of the internet...

Yeah, that "fan made trailer" by felipepepe is actually a very clever way to attract glutton-for-punishment type gamers.

My point is that the guy in the video clearly struggles with rules and UI, yet is willing to give the game a honest try. He even tries to flank the assassin provoking AOOs and wasting AP, but it's quite a clever and reasonable thing to do. AoD is neither popular nor hip indie title, so he must have seen some potential in it by deciding to play it and make a video about it (just guessing).

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, that "fan made trailer" by felipepepe is actually a very clever way to attract glutton-for-punishment type gamers.

How many people played I Wanna Be The Guy?

 

[felipepepe]

Author of that video should be sterilized to prevent his defective genes from passing to the next generation.

The guy is obviously faking it. He doesn't even knows how to attack or equip a weapon on the first try, but immediatly after he already uses hotkeys, controls the camera with AWSD, knows where is the map, center on character and quest journals....

Yeah, that "fan made trailer" by felipepepe is actually a very clever way to attract glutton-for-punishment type gamers.

How many people played I Wanna Be The Guy?

Better yet, how many played Dark Souls and loved it? FFS their slogan was "Prepare to Die".

 

[Grimlorn]

I think you are being too harsh. I thought the guy was fairly intelligent, but conditioned by playing modern games with emphasis on action and combat. And I think not everything he did wrong was his fault. AoD is not the game with the best designed UI, if we're honest. Quite a few codexers didn't figure how to decompose things until told, it took me couple of minutes of frustration with character position not being marked on the map to figure out you could quick travel by clicking the locations on the map (this guy figured it very quickly). He did "adapt" fairly quickly, just didn't want or had the time to go in depth with how the game works.

This is how an average RPG gamer will react to AoD. Not an average Xbox kiddie, but an average gamer that plays and likes RPGs, but is not "hardcore" enough to read the manual or learn the rules beforehand and expects to be taught to play while playing. Now, VD may say "good fucking riddance", but IMO he is excluding a lot of potential players with this attitude. Not just Biodrones and Bethtards, but people who know no better than mainstream current generation games. How are you going to build an audience for a hypothetical "RPG revival" if you alienate the players that need just a little pull to be drawn to the dark side world of quality RPGs? Kickstarting Wasteland 2 and similar games only goes so far...

There's basically a mini manual in the help button on the UI. All you have to do is click through it and read everything to get a basic understanding of how the game mechanics work and learn there are other attacks to do besides normal attack. And that certain weapons are better for power attacks and certain ones for fast attacks. RTFM

I wonder how many people complaining about the combat didn't even know there were other attacks, or the benefits of using those different attacks.

 

[Marsal]

Author of that video should be sterilized to prevent his defective genes from passing to the next generation.

The guy is obviously faking it. He doesn't even knows how to attack or equip a weapon on the first try, but immediatly after he already uses hotkeys, controls the camera with AWSD, knows where is the map, center on character and quest journals....

I admit I skipped through some parts, but I got the impression he was well versed in modern RPG conventions (controlling the camera and hotkeys), can read tooltips and figure out the icons (map, journal and center on character), just can't into UI and AoD mechanics.

 

[Kaol]

Tbh i did pretty much the same as that guy.

I don't remember many games killing you in the first fight so its not unreasonable to expect the first fight to be abit of a tutorial.

I wish combat could have been made more tactical but perhaps it isnt possible.

Allowing the player control of friendly NPC's would be sweet.

 

[likaq]

This is how an average RPG gamer will react to AoD. Not an average Xbox kiddie, but an average gamer that plays and likes RPGs, but is not "hardcore" enough to read the manual or learn the rules beforehand and expects to be taught to play while playing. Now, VD may say "good fucking riddance", but IMO he is excluding a lot of potential players with this attitude. Not just Biodrones and Bethtards, but people who know no better than mainstream current generation games. How are you going to build an audience for a hypothetical "RPG revival" if you alienate the players that need just a little pull to be drawn to the dark side world of quality RPGs? Kickstarting Wasteland 2 and similar games only goes so far...

Fuck them.

Catering to idiots by ITS is the very last thing i want to see.

 

[Infinitron]

Tbh i did pretty much the same as that guy.

I don't remember many games killing you in the first fight so its not unreasonable to expect the first fight to be abit of a tutorial.

I wish combat could have been made more tactical but perhaps it isnt possible.

Allowing the player control of friendly NPC's would be sweet.

How about letting you shout at them who you want them to attack? It could even have an AP cost.

 

[Marsal]

There's basically a mini manual in the help button on the UI. All you have to do is click through it and read everything to get a basic understanding of how the game mechanics work and learn there are other attacks to do besides normal attack. And that certain weapons are better for power attacks and certain ones for fast attacks. RTFM

I wonder how many people complaining about the combat didn't even know there were other attacks, or the benefits of using those different attacks.

This is all quite reasonable and to be expected. Yet most people are not reasonable and require some guidance. I'm not advocating going full retard, not even reducing the combat difficulty. It wasn't a problem for me and for most of the Codexers, but not many players are going to persevere through multiple deaths in the first minute of the game. Ignoring (or accepting and doing nothing to remedy) this is a disservice to not only AoD revenues, but potential players and the genre itself by turning those potential fans into jaded and bitter opponents (something akin to bizzaro Codex).