Incline Tim Cain says there are no bad games only different preferences and budgets... Agree? Disagree?

[Not.AI]

Tim Cain keeps suggesting this on YT.

Bad games don't exist, you just don't like them, other people do, all it's just all design choices and budgets. Intentional.

"Bad" games are less often "design" or other mistakes; more often just different audiences.

So the games industry is just very different from every other industry. This is the proposed theory.

Agree?

Disagree?

Vote!

In another place (.../forums/viewtopic.php?t=2215), the vote spread reached
Yay:=2
Nay:=57
Forgot to post a poll here though

He also asked for a counterargument.

 

[Lemming42]

I think he's right in the sense there are no inherently bad genres. I think there are obviously bad games though, ones that fail to meet their own goals, have a clear lack of effort put into them, have truly awful writing and worldbuilding, fail on a technological level, things like that.

Which puts it in pretty much the same camp as every other medium - you can churn literally any old pile of shit out and someone somewhere will really enjoy it, so nothing's "objectively bad", but there are going to be works of undeniably low quality where most people think the writing is offensively bad amateurish horseshit, the gameplay is mind-numbingly tedious and wholly derivative, the world design is sparse and low-effort, the visuals are garish and ugly, etc. The Outer Worlds, basically. Sorry Tim!

His point would be better made about genres, rather than individual games - a lot of people hold up Call of Duty as an example of a bad series but really it's doing exactly what it aims to do, and it's persistently doing it very competently, so I don't think it's "objectively bad", it's just a style of FPS that's really uninteresting to me. Same for Diablo-style ARPGs, which I can never take seriously as more than a diverting timewaster, but some people have been playing Diablo 2 for like two fucking decades, so there's clearly something to it.

 

[cretin]

just one of those pathetic non opinions that are designed to avoid being disagreeable with anyone at all.

 

[luj1]

Sounds very political (and a little crazy)

 

[quixotic]

That’s the kind of argument I’ve heard when it comes to many different forms of entertainment, movies especially. It’s mental gymnastics that’s only pushed by people that can’t cope with the fact that they enjoy something that’s bad or subpar in some way, but like others have said it also plays a part in the whole “I don’t want to step on anyone’s toes” rigamarole. “Being opinionated is bad, everything is subjective so your criticism is invalid”, it’s from that camp of thought.

 

[luj1]

everything is subjective

thats what they want so the talentless can go rampant

 

[PlayerEmers]

He is one of those guys that is so positive, it could make someone else sick. This is one of those instances: he just can't admit that bad games exist. You simply can't open Steam, browse new released games, look at all the russian shovelware that gets released every week and say:
"yep, just because it looks like shit, feels like shit and plays like shit means nothing. at the end of the day, one retarded ruskie will like this game because it gives you 1000 achievements and trading cards... which means its not a bad game, you just dont like it lol"

 

[deuxhero]

There's published games out there that literally do not work and can't be played as released. Not VtMB bugs everywhere, but crap like Sqij for the ZX Spectrum which literally can not be played unless you mod it or use a memory poke (it forces caps lock to be on, but the controls are all assigned to lowercase inputs: Apparently the programmer was obligated to port X games for a publisher and put in the least effort possible into his last one hoping the publisher wouldn't even bother releasing it). Those are objectively bad games.

 

[Beastro]

Thinking of Star Citizen and how it's just a whale milker makes me chuckle thinking about this idea.

Yeah, it just needs a bigger budget, man.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

He's talking about subjectivity which isn't all that difficult to comprehend. Also he's clearly never played a Ubisoft game.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Remember, Forspoken is not a bad game. The people who are into annoying protagonist and cringe dialogues and like to skate through vast landscapes filled with nothingness just haven't discovered it yet.

 

[Hoodoo]

There are no bad games and you are a bad person if you think so.

 

[Tyranicon]

We're like two months away from "you shouldn't criticize game creators because that's very mean and they worked very hard and they need money why can't you just enjoy the slop just eat it just give me money and eat it."

 

[Funposter]

Postmodernist claptrap. Of course there are objectively bad games, as there are any work of art or media. Are we going to insist that E.T for the Atari 2600, Ride to Hell: Retribution or any of those other notoriously horrible games are simply perceived as such due to differences in taste or a lack of budget? Plenty of horrible games had far too large a budget, in fact.

 

[Mauman]

Take your meds Tim, you're senility is showing.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Tim Cain keeps suggesting this on YT.

Bad games don't exist, you just don't like them, other people do, all it's just all design choices and budgets. Intentional.
...
He also asked for a counterargument.

Counterpoint: Tim Cain unintentionally created a few good games, as the result of technical, budgetary, and publishing limitations that existed in the particular circumstances, without realizing what he was doing.

 

[Jacov]

Subjectivity is a factor. One can find something to like even in bad games. However, saying there are no bad games and it's ONLY the matter of subjectivity is just wrong. Mindset like this stops us from researching games, perfecting the game creation craft.

You don't need to understand what makes a good or a bad game. There are no bad games! Why something does or does not work? It's just you! The problem is in you!

Videogames is a complex medium, and it's hard to judge them, but game design's main purpose is that — to understand per aspera ad astra what makes your game good or bad. It's a scholarship, and saying that there are no bad games is to nullify decades of learning in this field.

Of course it's a little more complex than just good/bad. You need to dive in deep to truly understand which elements of the game are gold and which are rotten.

 

[ropetight]

Oh, Tim, you sweet, innocent summer child.
Having opinion about game developers as Tolkien talked about Elves or liberals about journalists; beings of pure light and creativity, unable to make shit or have bad intentions.
Tim being developer, with his solid amount of blunders, makes this not only naive and tonedeaf, but arrogant and preachy too.

Lets move away from the games that are badly made, and that will be better understood by different audience (my god).
It is as if he never saw slot machines and clickers camouflaged into games with big budgets.
Or games that are made to make as much money from subscriptions and cosmetics that are intentionally crippling the gameplay so you have to reach for your wallet.
Those games get worse with big budgets and are the majority of the industry you are defending as infallible, Tim.

Possible "but those are not "real" games" arguments are on the level that real communism was never really tried.

There is so much wrong with his opinion.
I blame postmodernism and lack of shaming for this mental decay.

 

[Gibson]

who tf is tim cain? as in "he hasn't been relevant for the last 20 years, so why does his opinion even matter?"

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Thinking of Star Citizen and how it's just a whale milker makes me chuckle thinking about this idea.

I don't know if it's a bad game or not, I just know there's no way in Hell I'm going to spend that much on a game. It could be an amazing game, fantastic even. The best of the best. I'll just continue playing No Man's Sky that I got on sale for $30.

Remember, Forspoken is not a bad game.

This.

There are clearly bad games. Games which were designed to push a message on people, particularly a message that the majority of the audience that buys games don't agree with, absolutely fail in the intended purpose of games. the Saints Row remake is clearly a bad game and it's because of this. They hired multiple DEI groups including Sweet Baby Inc and GaymerX to consult on the games, and I'd be willing to bet that was part of the reason why the game was also broken in a lot of areas. How much time do you think was spent changing things in the game based on the critique of multiple consulting groups that get paid in order to tell you to change things that have already been made?

Postmodernist claptrap. Of course there are objectively bad games, as there are any work of art or media. Are we going to insist that E.T for the Atari 2600, Ride to Hell: Retribution or any of those other notoriously horrible games are simply perceived as such due to differences in taste or a lack of budget? Plenty of horrible games had far too large a budget, in fact.

I would also say that sales aren't indicative of a "good game" either, just like the box office take isn't indicative of a good movie. The same thing goes for poor sales for a good game or any other form of media. The Force Awakens made bank, but how many people today think it's a good movie? If it were a good movie, then the sequels might have fallen suit but they didn't. Same thing goes for games like Starfield, which sold well, but I'm pretty sure it's not well liked.

 

[HansDampf]

just one of those pathetic non opinions that are designed to avoid being disagreeable with anyone at all.

The both-sides-ism of media consumption.

 

[Stokowski]

Sounds like Communism.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

I like Tim, but I have to disagree with him. "Bad" isn't simply a subjective category.

 

[NecroLord]

Tim is just being his nice little faggot self.
He doesn't want to infuriate anyone or to invite passionate debate on the subject.

 

[911 Jumper]

“There is no better or worse, only different.”