Incline Tim Cain says there are no bad games only different preferences and budgets... Agree? Disagree?

[Utgard-Loki]

as if we needed more confirmation that fallout and arcanum were flukes.

 

[Drakortha]

They are all bad, actually.

 

[Not.AI]

Arcanum was fuckin' excellent (except the UI, which was kinda shit NGL)

I like Tim Cain and his channel overall. I think it's mostly good.

Some arguments of his are pretty clearly wrong though. The one this thread is about is extremely common too.

And it's a common attitude in Hollywood. "Everyone is just sooo talented. Everybody makes shit, but they're just amaaazing, wow, omg, can you believe it?" Answer: No.

The reason is that if you ever say a negative thing, however true, it could later mess up a deal. It's because deals depend on so many random (=not in your control and mixed) circumstances that they are too infrequent. They depend on too many decision makers who can break a deal but cannot make a deal, who also have no skin in the game, neither benefiting nor losing if a deal fails or goes through.

Yeah. That many games are flukes is probably true though. Most developers don't understand what they did that was great. They just did what they did, for intuitive reasons that did not get replicated.

Morrowind (no level scaling) => Oblivion (level scaling)

 

[Rövtomte]

People prefer different things, that's fair. But there are definately shit games out there. There is no wrong in admitting that some people are just shit at doing certain things, as making games. We're not all fit to do the same crap.

 

[Maxie]

it's never tim cain's fault shit is shit. he even had the gall to blame toee being shit on his renal stones.

 

[Rövtomte]

it's never tim cain's fault shit is shit. he even had the gall to blame toee being shit on his renal stones.

This made me chuckle quite a bit.

 

[Ash]

I absolutely hate the mass delusion that is the "everything is subjective" narrative. Love the results of this poll so far. 72 to 1.

-Like with most things, there are both degrees of subjectivity and objectivity involved.
-Examples of objectively bad elements can include a game that isn't even finished, or so buggy it crashes every 5 minutes guaranteed, or is extremely shallow and its elements are not in any way synergistic or complimentary of one another.
-Oftentimes, most commonly, people can like low quality crap because they lack perspective or experience. Have an inability to comprehend and analyze what they are experiencing, or have absurd priorities e.g only play video games for achievement farming as one example. This is not a respectable state of mind. This is a mental defect and simply enjoying games wrong, not as they were designed, and on a very shallow level at that.

 

[bionicman]

there are no good games

 

[flyingjohn]

he even had the gall to blame toee being shit on his renal stones.

You would think the stones would inspire him to make every encounter in TOEE a nightmare worth remembering instead of the snore fest we got.

Like with most things, there are both degrees of subjectivity and objectivity involved.

Degrees is the problem. Normies can't understand that and are too binary.

Examples of objectively bad elements can include

Action games having bad control + camera/input lag are objectively bad, list goes on. There are fundamental stuff game genres need to have gotten right, that can't be dismissed under the guise of "subjectivity".

Oftentimes, most commonly, people can like low quality crap because they lack perspective or experience.

This is a mental defect

They just think game is fun, therefore it is good. But fun is a meaningless term, what you want from games is engagement, not plain "fun".
For fucks sake, Arcania and Oblivion can be fun if you just play for the bugs/memes, doesn't mean the games are good.

 

[processdaemon]

I am interested in the opinion of the one person who said no objectively bad games exist. What was your reasoning? Or does Tim have an alt that he still logs into the Codex on?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

he even had the gall to blame toee being shit on his renal stones.

ToEE was pretty good considering the time which the module was made. Even with the old tropes of the original module when they were still figuring out "role playing", it was still a better game than the NWN OC. The 3.5E implementation was fairly robust, better than any other 3.5E implementation at the time. The combat was very well done especially considering the previous turn based D&D game was Pool of Radiance 2 and it was highly rushed.

 

[Be Kind Rewind]

He also asked for a counterargument.

There cannot be any debate when people have radically different interests. Timothy "Fairy" Cain has good reason to not just give handjobs to his fellow "creatives" so they offer him more opportunities and jerk him off in turn, but he also has a vested interest in people not using objective metrics of quality since everything he made after Troika was shut down has been dogshit, and even back in the day his main responsibilities, which was programming and things relating to it, were always dodgy, leaving it up to modders to fix the games for him down the road.

People buying games have a limited amount of time and money to spend so even the worst corporate bootlick like Morgoth/Wirdschowerdn/Kiketurk has to make a reasoned choice from what the market offers. This makes us more liable to grade games according to both objective standards and personal taste, while someone who works as a developer has no incentive to care about that, it's just a job to them and these days odds are they aren't very good at it. It was different in the 90's when game developers were passionate about the medium and gamers themselves, but these days it's either just a paycheck or an opportunity to spread the message of the American state cult to the masses, which in itself promotes mediocrity over excellence.

The case against objective gradation of games is particularly something you'd see a modern developer spout, because the weight of the past hangs over them and they can't ever seem to escape the shadow of the greats that just so happens to have been young White nerdy men or northern Asians.

 

[Be Kind Rewind]

there are no good games

 

[Hell Swarm]

Remember, Forspoken is not a bad game. The people who are into annoying protagonist and cringe dialogues and like to skate through vast landscapes filled with nothingness just haven't discovered it yet.

Forspoken is a terrible example of a bad game. You might not like the presentation, the writing or the gameplay but it's not a bad game because of those things. It's one of the few games you could apply Tim's argument to and he'd have a point. It's a perfectly serviceable modern title with slick presentation, some what engaging combat and a beautiful world to explore. It's one sassy black lady removal away from being on par with Elden ring and all the other open world games released this decade. And there will be some faggots who really enjoy being the urban teen sassy black lady who will devour the game with delight. It has an audience, it's just an audience most people hate and want nothing to do with.

For an actual bad game check out a Steam house pipe and see how many walking sims run at 15 FPS and have barely any gameplay or visuals. Look at the countless student projects pushed onto steam at insane prices and nothing but endless broken mechanics. It's below even shovelware standards.

 

[Incognito/STK]

Tim Cain keeps suggesting this on YT.

Bad games don't exist, you just don't like them, other people do, all it's just all design choices and budgets. Intentional.

Oh yeah? Then explain Outer Worlds? Checkmate.

 

[blessed king of longing]

Tim Cain keeps suggesting this on YT.

Bad games don't exist, you just don't like them, other people do, all it's just all design choices and budgets. Intentional.

"Bad" games are less often "design" or other mistakes; more often just different audiences.

So the games industry is just very different from every other industry. This is the proposed theory.

Agree?

Disagree?

Vote!

In another place (.../forums/viewtopic.php?t=2215), the vote spread reached
Yay:=2
Nay:=57
Forgot to post a poll here though

He also asked for a counterargument.

tim cain is so deep in the cope, it's probably because outer worlds was such a turd. you WOULD say shit like this to cover for the fact that you exposed yourself as a hack. he's completely unable to levy any form of criticism towards anyone because that would open him up to it. this, and crying like a bitch about "the struggles of being a faggot" outed him as a total pseud. this is no different than saying there's nothing wrong with eating shit, you just don't like the taste of it. he's not even making a proper argument, so a counter-argument is not necessary.

 

[Semiurge]

That's like saying that there are no retards, only people of different mental ability levels.

They're making excuses for their lack of ambition and for the decline of the industry's ethics.

 

[Rövtomte]

That's like saying that there are no retards, only people of different mental ability levels.

They're making excuses for their lack of ambition and for the decline of the industry's ethics.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Alienman]

Tim is just being his nice little faggot self.
He doesn't want to infuriate anyone or to invite passionate debate on the subject.

"Nice". I'm getting a lot of repressed anger and resentment in that facade he has built up through his Youtube adventure. He is the lord of passive aggressiveness.

 

[Cohesion]

Tim is just being his nice little faggot self.
He doesn't want to infuriate anyone or to invite passionate debate on the subject.

"Nice". I'm getting a lot of repressed anger and resentment in that facade he has built up through his Youtube adventure. He is the lord of passive aggressiveness.

I hope he saw this thread and Ed Mortimer thread.

 

[NecroLord]

Tim is just being his nice little faggot self.
He doesn't want to infuriate anyone or to invite passionate debate on the subject.

"Nice". I'm getting a lot of repressed anger and resentment in that facade he has built up through his Youtube adventure. He is the lord of passive aggressiveness.

Well, he IS gay, so...

 

[Not.AI]

In the other thread&poll (.../forums/viewtopic.php?t=2215-tim-cain-says-there-are-no-bad-games-only-different-preferences-and-budgets-agree-disagree) somebody named Tim_Cain already created an account and voted.

Don't know if it's Tim or not. Probably not?

I'm stupid anyway and forgot to enable the who-chose-pikachu option in this thread and poll.

Somebody can petition the gods (mods) to enable visibility and find out.

Else it will remain an historical mystery. Like Patton and JFK.

 

[Valestein]

I always knew Bubsy 3D was not a bad game.

 

[rumSaint]

That's like saying that there are no retards, only people of different mental ability levels.

They're making excuses for their lack of ambition and for the decline of the industry's ethics.

Yup, 100% right. Dulling the language, to cover for own mistakes.

 

[laclongquan]

Tim Cain's argument is practically one used by every makers and producers ever. They just dont want to judge their products with objective eyes.

Is Fallout Brotherhood of Steel a bad game? Not even after two decades steeping here its judgement can get a turnaround.