Game News Todd Howard talks about his plans to dumb down Oblivion

[merry andrew]

You've heard the *Less Choice= More Gameplay* argument for how many developers now? and you're still buying it??

Most RPGs that have horrible gameplay is due to their seemingly endless meaningless choices.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oh noes! I like bows over other weapons. OMFG. I'm so predictable!

Yes, and your lame dodging of the real issue is equally pathetic.

Did you miss the rest of my post?

 

[Whipporowill]

Rex, editing stuff in doesn't count. When I read Sheriff's post that second part of your's wasn't there - fair's fair now. :D

And have we, to this date, seen any developer that actually managed to deliver something good by actually cutting down on choices, to this date - wether be it weapons or anything else? I find it a sign of health that people are questioning the decisions of developers.

 

[Shevek]

RPG=LOTSA WEAPONS!!!!!

When a RPG is an action rpg, then defining how your character opts kill enemies is just about al there is to the character development system. Therefore, situationally, yes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We're talking about the grand implementation that Todd described. Graphical enchancements will aid with the immersion that the game provides. This seems to be something that the Elder Scrolls series has prided itself on: graphics and immersion. Everything else they do seems to be centered around those aspects of gameplay.

Fair enough, good point. In that case, you shouldn't really be surprised that some of us criticize such a move. It's not quality vs quantity then, as you stated originally, but choice vs immersion.

Having several types of weapons that act almost exactly in the same manner is more of a graphical choice than a gameplay choice.

Many people feel that using certain weapons (like mace and xbow from Whip's example above) is an important part of their character identity. Now, this choice has been taken away.

It seems that Bethesda has decided that for the immersion aspect, they'd rather have their ranged weaponry be quite distinct and believable rather than varied in quanitity yet not-so-varied in quality.

Maybe, yet it looks like that with every game Bethesda reduces and simplifies everything that could be simplified, WITHOUT adding any quality to balance it out.

DF had advantages/disadvanatges as a part of char creation, MW didn't
DF had a lot of skills (like climbing, swimming, medical, critical strike, dodge, streetwise, languages, etiquette, etc). In MW they were either grouped in one (athletics, speechcraft, etc) or gone.
DF had more then 20 (some say close to 30) guilds. MW had few, without improving anything.
DF had banks, horses, houses to buy, almost non-linear and actually interesting storyline, witch covens, vamps and werewolves, switches in dungeons, tons of guilds and orders, etc. MW either didn't have many of those, or dumbed them down.

Do you see the pattern?

 

[merry andrew]

RPG=LOTSA WEAPONS!!!!!

When a RPG is an action rpg, then defining how your character opts kill enemies is just about al there is to the character development system. Therefore, situationally, yes.

Actions RPGs with six standard novels worth of text, non-combat character progression, and a multitude of storylines (ala Morrowind)?

edit: I had to... : dialogue reference libraries, detailed armor (sets), diningware, various distinguished guilds, flower-picking, lonely nights at bars in new towns...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Fallout didn't have spears. That was a Fallout 2 thing, and it was retarded.

There were spears in Fallout.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Bows are just flat out cool. See: Rambo.

 

[Shevek]

Novels of text means nothing. I could stick the full works of William Shakespeare in Doom3 and that doesnt make it a rpg. Noncombat character progression means nothing if its implemented like crap and all you do is run around and kill. Storylines exist in other genres and are not a monoploy held by rpgs.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Fallout didn't have spears. That was a Fallout 2 thing, and it was retarded.

There were spears in Fallout.

Were there? I never used them. I just bashed things with my sledgehammer.

 

[merry andrew]

Novels of text means nothing. I could stick the full works of William Shakespeare in Doom3 and that doesnt make it a rpg. Noncombat character progression means nothing if its implemented like crap and all you do is run around and kill. Storylines exist in other genres and are not a monoploy held by rpgs.

I think you're trying to say that Morrowind is an action-rpg, similar to Diablo and Dungeon Siege. I'm saying, you're wrong.

 

[Shevek]

I think you're trying to say that Morrowind is an action-rpg, similar to Diablo and Dungeon Siege. I'm saying, you're wrong.

Good for you.

 

[merry andrew]

Fair enough, good point. In that case, you shouldn't really be surprised that some of us criticize such a move. It's not quality vs quantity then, as you stated originally, but choice vs immersion.

I was seeing it as immersion=quality, choices=quantity.

Many people feel that using certain weapons (like mace and xbow from Whip's example above) is an important part of their character identity. Now, this choice has been taken away.

Yes, hopefully there is something to roleplay with other than ranged weapon diversity. I get the feeling that Oblivion won't have a combat-focus on par with TOEE, so people should still be able to do lots of non-combatweaponofchoice roleplaying.

Maybe, yet it looks like that with every game Bethesda reduces and simplifies everything that could be simplified, WITHOUT adding any quality to balance it out.

DF had advantages/disadvanatges as a part of char creation, MW didn't
DF had a lot of skills (like climbing, swimming, medical, critical strike, dodge, streetwise, languages, etiquette, etc). In MW they were either grouped in one (athletics, speechcraft, etc) or gone.
DF had more then 20 (some say close to 30) guilds. MW had few, without improving anything.
DF had banks, horses, houses to buy, almost non-linear and actually interesting storyline, witch covens, vamps and werewolves, switches in dungeons, tons of guilds and orders, etc. MW either didn't have many of those, or dumbed them down.

Do you see the pattern?

Yeah, I guess I'm just not as worried as I could be. I've actually never played Daggerfall.

I don't remember Morrowing having no advantages/disadvantages as part of character creation.
Were all of those skills in DF as meaningful as the skills in Morrowind?
The guild thing sucks, if it is as you say. Same with the meaningful banks, horses, houses to buy, and non-linear interesting story.

Then again, Morrowind and Oblivion are a lot more graphics intensive than Daggerfall. When you add more visual detail, it's harded to implement things that have almost no visual detail. Does that make sense, at least?

 

[merry andrew]

Novels of text means nothing. I could stick the full works of William Shakespeare in Doom3 and that doesnt make it a rpg. Noncombat character progression means nothing if its implemented like crap and all you do is run around and kill. Storylines exist in other genres and are not a monoploy held by rpgs.

I'll be specific.

Novels of text mean nothing if they're just there on the screen, I understand. This text was included in story-related books and dialogue for Morrowind. The non-combat character progression in Morrowind was not implemented like crap, and there was a helluva lot more to do than run around and kill.

And as for the storylines of RPGs not being much different from the storylines of non-RPGs, I guess I just disagree. By storylines, I refer to the character's ability to be part of the storyline (since we're talking about RPG mechanics and not RPG storyline themes).

 

[Shevek]

The quality of an rpg system lies in how well deep its character development/creation system is and how well that is implemented in game.

Immersion can exist in lots of genres other than rpgs. Therefore, judging the quality of a rpg solely by how 'immersive' it is, is fundamentally flawed. This is similar to how many jrpgs may be very immersive, have nice stories and so on but most tend to be shallow/pretty piss poor rpgs because the meat of an rpg is either weak or nonexistant in those titles.

If Oblivion follows the trend set by Bethesda in moving from Daggerfall to Morrowind, the title will have an extreme combat focus. I will grant you that if the game picks up the slack from its increasing lack luster character development with respect to combat and makes an indepth stat/skill system with a noncombat focus on par with PST or FO then, yes, all is well. However, you have to judge these things based on what Bethesda has done. Moreover, I sincerely doubt Bethesda will go that kind of niche route with a XTrash title.

Then again, Morrowind and Oblivion are a lot more graphics intensive than Daggerfall. When you add more visual detail, it's harded to implement things that have almost no visual detail. Does that make sense, at least?

No. Pretty gfx are no excuse the dumbing down that occurred from DF to MW.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't remember Morrowing having no advantages/disadvantages as part of character creation.

You could pick weapons/armor/metal restrictions (can't use silver armor for example), critical weaknesses, rapid healing, penalty for daytime/nightime, bonuses to skills and abilities, etc. If you had a lot of bonuses, you level up slower, if you had a lot of restrictions, you level up faster. Or you could balance them out carefully. It added a lot of depth to customization of your characters.

Were all of those skills in DF as meaningful as the skills in Morrowind?

Ha! You could actually climb castle walls - great for thieves, not some hills like in MW. You couldn't swim in heavy gear without a decent skill. I once fell into the water during a fight, and had to throw away all my armor to survive and get out, and then continue the fight without any armor.

The guild thing sucks, if it is as you say. Same with the meaningful banks, horses, houses to buy, and non-linear interesting story.

It is as I say. Banks were cool, you could keep your money there, borrow money and pay interest, etc. You could have a carriage to go with a hourse to carry all that phat loot, etc. You could even buy your own ships.

Then again, Morrowind and Oblivion are a lot more graphics intensive than Daggerfall. When you add more visual detail, it's harded to implement things that have almost no visual detail. Does that make sense, at least?

Nope

 

[merry andrew]

The quality of an rpg system lies in how well deep its character development/creation system is and how well that is implemented in game.

So their character development/creation system has no chance of being high quality if there aren't a lot of ranged weapons?

Immersion can exist in lots of genres other than rpgs. Therefore, judging the quality of a rpg solely by how 'immersive' it is, is fundamentally flawed. This is similar to how many jrpgs may be very immersive, have nice stories and so on but most tend to be shallow/pretty piss poor rpgs because the meat of an rpg is either weak or nonexistant in those titles.

Immersion in an RPG, for me, is determined by how detailed its character development system is AND how that system is implemented into the game. I really don't care how detailed it is if the details don't mean much. So when Bethesda decides that there's not gonna be a variety of ranged weapon types, I don't get worked up over it. I'm young and naive!!!

I don't see how 'variety in ranged weapon types' is part of the "meat of an rpg". Unless you're referring to an action-rpg, if so, then we're back to our difference of opinion.

If Oblivion follows the trend set by Bethesda in moving from Daggerfall to Morrowind, the title will have an extreme combat focus.

I don't think that Morrowind had an extreme combat focus, but okay. I've never played Daggerfall.

Then again, Morrowind and Oblivion are a lot more graphics intensive than Daggerfall. When you add more visual detail, it's harded to implement things that have almost no visual detail. Does that make sense, at least?

No. Pretty gfx are no excuse the dumbing down that occurred from DF to MW.

Nope

I thought that adding animations and graphical representations for things such as: banks, horses, houses to buy, tons of guilds (people, places, items, locations, etc.), climbing, medical treatment, complex dungeons, etc. would take a lot of time and resources. Thus, when you are working on a game that's pretty much trying to be on the forefront of graphics, it's tough to implement things the way that you'd like to that in previous generations (Daggerfall) required little-to-no intensive work for animations and graphical representations. I could definitely be wrong.

I'll ask some other people about this, perhaps.

 

[Shevek]

So their character development/creation system has no chance of being high quality if there aren't a lot of ranged weapons?

A big fan of circular arguementation, are you?

Immersion in an RPG, for me, is determined by how detailed its character development system is AND how that system is implemented into the game. I really don't care how detailed it is if the details don't mean much. So when Bethesda decides that there's not gonna be a variety of ranged weapon types, I don't get worked up over it. I'm young and naive!!!

Immersion is one thing: how connected you feel to the game world or, to put it a bit clearer, how immersed you feel. This could exist in sports titles, rpgs, adventure games action titles and so on. This definition does not change with genre. Of course, immersion is a very subjective thing so...

I don't see how 'variety in ranged weapon types' is part of the "meat of an rpg". Unless you're referring to an action-rpg, if so, then we're back to our difference of opinion.

Uh, huh.

Anywho, Im hoping off the circular arguement merry andrew go round now.

 

[merry andrew]

A big fan of circular arguementation, are you?

Thanks for answering my question. I'm sorry, I forgot that this entire thread isn't about the variety of ranged weapon types in Oblivion.

Immersion is one thing: how connected you feel to the game world or, to put it a bit clearer, how immersed you feel. This could exist in sports titles, rpgs, adventure games action titles and so on. This definition does not change with genre. Of course, immersion is a very subjective thing so...

I thought this was the RPGCodex, not the "this aspect of a game exists in every game"Codex.

Anywho, Im hoping off the circular arguement merry andrew go round now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I thought that adding animations and graphical representations for things such as: banks, horses, houses to buy, tons of guilds (people, places, items, locations, etc.), climbing, medical treatment, complex dungeons, etc. would take a lot of time and resources. Thus, when you are working on a game that's pretty much trying to be on the forefront of graphics, it's tough to implement things the way that you'd like to that in previous generations (Daggerfall) required little-to-no intensive work for animations and graphical representations. I could definitely be wrong.

Don't underestimate the importance of simple message boxes: banking requires a building and a message box to communicate; buying a house is merely a formality (almost everybody "owned" that Council Club in Balmora), it requires a few available houses in every city; horses do require graphics, but considering the development length, I don't think it's such a big deal, they could have used guars (existing models) as mounts, climbing could have been done via a message bx too if animating it was such a big deal - they don't show you how you ride a bug when travelling after all, same could have been done with climbing: "Using your mad climbing skillz you have successfully climbed the wall", etc.

 

[merry andrew]

Don't underestimate the importance of simple message boxes: banking requires a building and a message box to communicate; buying a house is merely a formality (almost everybody "owned" that Council Club in Balmora), it requires a few available houses in every city; horses do require graphics, but considering the development length, I don't think it's such a big deal, they could have used guars (existing models) as mounts, climbing could have been done via a message bx too if animating it was such a big deal - they don't show you how you ride a bug when travelling after all, same could have been done with climbing: "Using your mad climbing skillz you have successfully climbed the wall", etc.

Makes sense. Although, if they really wanted to just use message boxes for such things, they probably wouldn't spend so much time on the graphics in the first place.

 

[Vault Dweller]

One can work with another. What they can't do in shiny colours, they can do in message boxes.

 

[merry andrew]

One can work with another. What they can't do in shiny colours, they can do in message boxes.

I know.

Just by "graphics", I mean animations and all that. If you're trying to produce a game where its visual quality is a prime concern (like Todd was describing in that article, how the arrows appear to realistically penetrate different objects, the arc of the arrow, arrows in a quiver on the character, where it is possible to visually distinguish what kind of arrows are being used), putting in message boxes for all the stuff that you can't implement visually probably isn't the best feeling. So instead of trying to satisfy every RPG nut they can by adding tons of features regardless of if they can be represented with their graphics engine and intended development time, they'll just stick with what they're sure they can do very well.

It's certainly a different approach from Daggerfall, in which they probably tried to implement every character specification and interaction that they could, but their focus has obviously changed. Past games have been more reliant on the imagination than the latest games, due to advancements in graphics. And since having tons and tons of gameplay detail (regardless of how relevant it is) doesn't seem to be the key factor in what makes a great RPG, developers are probably becoming less concerned with it.

 

[geminito]

I'm happy about this decision. Save throwing weapons and crossbows for an assassin-themed expansion pack. "TES IV: Dark Brotherhood"

Add javelins and discus in another expansion pack. "TES IV: Tamriel Olympiad".

Really, who actually cares about this? Who throws a shoe? Really??

 

[Deacdo]

If they weren't so obsessed with pumping out the game on a bunch of different platforms they'd have the resources they need to do a lot more. I didn't expect much from Morrowind (thankfully) and I don't expect much from Oblivion.

Bethesda is too busy trying to style themselves as the EA of RPGs to worry about petty little details in their RPGs