TOEE is orgasmic

[Roguey]

And as I said before, I consider mods that enhance the vanilla experience to be the way to go. I got your point already, if you want to argue the bugfixes and obvious exploits removal ruin first time playthrough - that's fine, but not what many people will agree with; and since you didn't take part in the delevopment, you don't get to speak for authors. The only one arrogant here is you.

Arrogance is forcing people to put up with your subjective balance changes and fan fiction if they want to play a game with fewer bugs. The BG modders didn't do things this way; you don't need to install SCS simply to fix bugs.

 

[Max Damage]

Arrogance is forcing people to put up with your subjective balance changes and fan fiction if they want to play a game with fewer bugs. The BG modders didn't do things this way; you don't need to install SCS simply to fix bugs.

Not familiar with BG modding, and nope, you trying to downplay developer oversights and mistakes doesn't make other arrogant. "Fewer" is a big fucking understatement, go read changelogs to see just how rushed vanilla is.

 

[Roguey]

Not familiar with BG modding, and nope, you trying to downplay developer oversights and mistakes doesn't make other arrogant. "Fewer" is a big fucking understatement, go read changelogs to see just how rushed vanilla is.

I've played through ToEE with 3.0.4 multiple times and never noticed any particularly huge issues. That's good enough for the most part.

 

[Max Damage]

As someone who finished vanilla once, I didn't run into any bugs that prevented me from completing the game, but I still wouldn't recommend it because there were plenty of annoying things that got fixed by community. No matter how I look, I don't see the point in playing ToEE unmodded, it isn't something you'd actively look out for if you have any sanity left. People continuing the work of author is not arrogance because developers are just people like you and me, for all I know Tim Cain wished the game to be played the way it is with community's contributions.

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain wished the game to be played the way it is with community's contributions.

Tim Cain was against player punches (it's why he hates Tomb of Horrors) and co8 has several (having the bandits and the frogs attack you at once at the entrance of the Moathouse and the Moathouse ambush).

 

[Fairfax]

Tim Cain was against player punches (it's why he hates Tomb of Horrors)

ToH doesn't have "player punches". The poem provides enough clues to finish the whole thing. PCs only die by being careless and doing something foolish.

and co8 has several (having the bandits and the frogs attack you at once at the entrance of the Moathouse and the Moathouse ambush).

The bandits attack outside the Moathouse?

 

[Max Damage]

I fail to see how any of those are player punches compared to getting ambushed when resting, or getting assraped by will-o-wisps when resting on surface. The frogs aren't a big threat even at lvl1, and by the time you finish Moathouse you're guaranteed to get lvl 3-4 so the ambush at the exit isn't something that's impossible to handle. Being moderately challenged isn't punching the player, especially in combat-centered game like ToEE. The vanilla's nubmer generator is way dirtier than any of those.

 

[Lios]

Man the moathouse ambush was one the moments I enjoyed the most while playing Circle of Eight.

 

[tenki]

As someone who finished vanilla once, I didn't run into any bugs that prevented me from completing the game,

Same here. Almost. After restarting once or twice.
iirc the evil path of homelette was scrambled, uncompletable

 

[Max Damage]

Enchantment is a perfectly valid school of magic. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

The bandits attack outside the Moathouse?

You have those two groups of enemies when you get to the moathouse, the frogs and the bandits. If you trigger combat with the frogs, the bandits come rushing down. If you sneak past the frogs and trigger combat with the bandits, the frogs come rushing from below. Too much to manage for the average player.

It should also be noted that this isn't even true to Gygax's vision:

If brigand sentries were at area 3 when the party approached (a 50% chance), they have retreated here, and the others are warned of the party's approach. At least one brigand always watches the escape route (the ruined wall in the southeast corner, and the stepping stones across the moat).
The brigands' actions vary by the party's apparent strength:
Weak:
The brigands hide in the clutter of wrecked furniture, gaining surprise on 1-5 (on 1d6).
Capable:
The brigands lock their door, and leave if it is battered. They take only their petty loot, leaving the rest safely hidden.
Overwhelming:
The brigands sneak out as soon as the party is detected, taking all of their loot and heading for greener pastures.

"They help the frogs" isn't listed there, nor vice versa.

I fail to see how any of those are player punches compared to getting ambushed when resting, or getting assraped by will-o-wisps when resting on surface. The frogs aren't a big threat even at lvl1, and by the time you finish Moathouse you're guaranteed to get lvl 3-4 so the ambush at the exit isn't something that's impossible to handle. Being moderately challenged isn't punching the player, especially in combat-centered game like ToEE. The vanilla's nubmer generator is way dirtier than any of those.

Player punches are unexpected. When you rest in the wild, you know there's a risk of getting interrupted. "The entire area is going to attack you at once" and "when you beat the final boss, an additional unavoidable big fight will trigger before you can backtrack to a safe area to rest" can't be predicted.

The frogs aren't a threat to veteran players; I've seen numerous posts from people who have struggled with them. I thought they were difficult myself the first time around and that was with a level 2 party that had completed the Hommlet daisy chain.

Additionally, the ambush according to Gygax:

If Lareth is slain, there will be cautious and discreet inquiries in Hommlet, as the servants of evil therein make every attempt to find out what happened. If any of Lareth's possessions turn up, the slayers are revealed. An assassin of 10th level who can speak the alignment language of the individuals, as well as those of major allies, will come to the village in 5-20 days to eliminate the offender(s). DM, handle this as you see fit. Jaroo and Terjon of Hommlet will certainly aid those attacked. If the assassin is killed, nothing further will be attempted.

co8: pure fan fic

 

[Max Damage]

I played Co8 with NC, never had that happen in any of my playthroughs. How would that even work? The bandits are at least a couple screens away from frogs. Several preset ambushes in vanilla can't be predicted either (the frogs and bandits in Moathouse get first move on you, then the spider in tower does, then there're several mini-ambushes during certain fights + biggest ones if you follow Llareth's directions or go blindfolded to Hedrak), I don't follow your point. The ambush "according to Gygax" isn't present in vanilla ToEE, and if you want to go full pedant, ToEE as made by Troika isn't on the same edition as the original module, neither is it carbon copy of the campaign. By this point you are just sperging about random stuff, does any of this have any point?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I played Co8 with NC, never had that happen in any of my playthroughs.

Neither did I, and my last playthrough was only a couple of weeks ago. Since I don't use it, would it be a Temple+ thing ?

 

[Roguey]

How would that even work? The bandits are at least a couple screens away from frogs.

I'm going by what they write in their release notes.

- Made moathouse giant frogs and courtyard bandits trigger each other, so you don't get to kill them one at a time.

I figure they put in call-for-help scripts so that the battle gets them all to charge in your direction.

Pretty amusing if the script is bugged and doesn't even work.

Several preset ambushes in vanilla can't be predicted either (the frogs and bandits in Moathouse get first move on you, then the spider in tower does, then there're several mini-ambushes during certain fights + biggest ones if you follow Llareth's directions or go blindfolded to Hedrak)

This is fine because you can always backtrack to a safe area to rest on a reload if you don't win the first time. If you only use one save and saved after you killed Lareth, you're stuck.

The ambush "according to Gygax" isn't present in vanilla ToEE, and if you want to go full pedant, ToEE as made by Troika isn't on the same edition as the original module, neither is it carbon copy of the campaign. By this point you are just sperging about random stuff, does any of this have any point?

Tim Cain wasn't doing fan fic because he was being paid to adapt a Greyhawk module into third edition (later 3.5) as he saw fit.

I don't see how what co8 is doing is any different from "I'm going to correct all the typos and grammatical errors in this book and also insert paragraphs of my own."

 

[Sitra Achara]

How would that even work? The bandits are at least a couple screens away from frogs.

I'm going by what they write in their release notes.

- Made moathouse giant frogs and courtyard bandits trigger each other, so you don't get to kill them one at a time.

I figure they put in call-for-help scripts so that the battle gets them all to charge in your direction.

Pretty amusing if the script is bugged and doesn't even work.

Several preset ambushes in vanilla can't be predicted either (the frogs and bandits in Moathouse get first move on you, then the spider in tower does, then there're several mini-ambushes during certain fights + biggest ones if you follow Llareth's directions or go blindfolded to Hedrak)

This is fine because you can always backtrack to a safe area to rest on a reload if you don't win the first time. If you only use one save and saved after you killed Lareth, you're stuck.

The ambush "according to Gygax" isn't present in vanilla ToEE, and if you want to go full pedant, ToEE as made by Troika isn't on the same edition as the original module, neither is it carbon copy of the campaign. By this point you are just sperging about random stuff, does any of this have any point?

Tim Cain wasn't doing fan fic because he was being paid to adapt a Greyhawk module into third edition (later 3.5) as he saw fit.

I don't see how what co8 is doing is any different from "I'm going to correct all the typos and grammatical errors in this book and also insert paragraphs of my own."

The ambush has solid footing in the pnp module - the description of Turuko and Kobort says they will spy on larger parties returning from the moathouse and attack when they're reduced by deaths and wounds. I guess what the scenario lacks is a modicum of telegraphing.

As for the Frogs and bandits, you misinterpreted "each other" - it means the frogs will trigger the slightly more distant frogs, and likewise for the bandits. In vanilla you could often trigger them one at a time and easily pick them off, which was just plain silly. Also I scripted that

 

[Sitra Achara]

This is fine because you can always backtrack to a safe area to rest on a reload if you don't win the first time. If you only use one save and saved after you killed Lareth, you're stuck.

By the way, regarding this - if by that time the player doesn't stock up on supplies (including healing potions and/or magical scrolls), and just barely makes it through the encounter, it means they did a poor job and should be mercilessly punished

 

[Max Damage]

I have no idea how one would get past Llareth and then get stuck on Moathouse exit ambush. I still don't see why you single out that encounter, just exit through courtyard? By that logic Temple shouldn't have tower ambush because you can stumble upon it on your way out, it is your fault if you don't keep your party healthy and stocked on supplies.

 

[Melcar]

The first time I played that ambush I was down on supplies, like 25% of what I originally stocked. Still beat the encounter. Took a while but it was satisfying.

 

[Lilura]

No matter how I look, I don't see the point in playing ToEE unmodded, it isn't something you'd actively look out for if you have any sanity left.

This always happens when mods gain traction. You get these little butterflies thinking they're better than others because they play Co8 for ToEE, SCS for BG2 and 1.13 for Jagged Alliance 2. And putting down people who want to play the original. Modding fanbases are the worst, which is why I take them to task on my blog.

I've taken 1.13 to task and SCS to task. Looks like it's time to take the Co8 mod to task, too. I've never liked that mod, anyway.

 

[Max Damage]

Okay? We're talking vanilla ToEE here, for Cuthbert's sake. If it weren't for mods, I'd never return to the game. If people prefer it - that's totally fine, but that doesn't make modders arrogant. Also twisting that into putting people down somehow

 

[Lilura]

Okay? We're talking vanilla ToEE here, for Cuthbert's sake. If it weren't for mods, I'd never return to the game. If people prefer it - that's totally fine, but that doesn't make modders arrogant. Also twisting that into putting people down somehow

Co8 is overrated; it's a bloated monstrosity. Patch2 is playable as I've proven in my write-ups. I've played it on and off for years. And my commentary on ToEE and Temple+ gets read.

Where did I say modders were arrogant? Many of them are, but where did I say it? I haven't said that about Co8 yet. But there's your quote, clear as day: "People who play the original are insane".

 

[Max Damage]

I'm talking about what you wrote in the context of the thread, which you quite conveniently chose to ignore sans the triggering part that fits into your agenda. Don't let this stop your righteous crusade though, best of luck

 

[Lilura]

I'm talking about what you wrote in the context of the thread, which you quite conveniently chose to ignore

This is fake news until you cite where I said "Co8 are arrogant".

Don't let this stop your righteous crusade though, best of luck

I don't need luck. I've done this several times before.

 

[Max Damage]

dear xir, you've been on 'dex for how long? And "insane" is what you want to take offense to? I'm not going to play along, and I doubt you'll find many people who can testify your sanity either way.

 

[Melcar]

Patch 2 is playable, but still is plagued with bugs that will often not allow you to finish the game. My first few plays were with vanilla patch 2, and non I could complete due to bugs. These days I just use CO8 with no extra content.