TOEE is orgasmic

[Lilura]

Patch 2 is playable, but still is plagued with bugs that will often not allow you to finish the game.

Never not been able to finish. And I've played through patch2 about 20 times. No one has denied that it's got bugs and glitches. I've mentioned the big ones in my retrospective.

Still, it's about time someone did an in-depth write-up on the Co8 mod.

 

[Melcar]

Patch 2 is playable, but still is plagued with bugs that will often not allow you to finish the game.

Never not been able to finish. And I've played through patch2 about 20 times. No one has denied that it's got bugs and glitches. I've mentioned the big ones in my retrospective.

Still, it's about time someone did an in-depth write-up on the Co8 mod.

Obviously you have a higher luck score.

 

[Roguey]

This is fake news until you cite where I said "Co8 are arrogant".

I'm the one who called them arrogant specifically citing their own words on the matter https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/toee-is-orgasmic.128943/page-3#post-6246934

 

[Lilura]

Obviously you have a higher luck score.

It's not luck. It's just knowing how to play a buggy Troika game. Go and check out the original forums. Lots of people got through the game. And loved it.

ToEE would have cult status and be played to this day without Co8. And so would Vamp Bloodlines and Arcanum without their modding communities.

Modding communities are not saviors. They are popularizers that get newbies like Max Damage retroactively appreciating Troika's games, after the horse has bolted.

 

[Lilura]

I'm the one who called them arrogant specifically citing their own words on the matter https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/toee-is-orgasmic.128943/page-3#post-6246934

Yep, that's arrogant. I don't want their content or AI updates forced into my game, just the bugfixes. I remember when killap snuck a tiny change into Fallout 2; the veterans noticed immediately.

 

[Jason Liang]

ToEE's bugginess is a feature! It's how you can reanimate infinite Charmed NPC companions permanently (as well as check out all their stats) similar to the Dominate Will trick in Arcanum. That freedom to break the shit out of the game is one of the greatest joys of a Troika game (as opposed to Black Isle's Fallouts which noticably lack such degenerate bugs/ freedom). I've a feeling that's not how Lilura plays ToEE though.

It's also why I'm pretty surprised that Lilura rates Arcanum and ToEE so highly. They and JA2 (and NWN Swordflight) are completely different beasts gameplay-wise. The Troika games, especially in their vanilla state, have combat so ridiculuously broken it's basically a joke if you play it that way.

I'm not too sure about unmodded Arcanum. Arcanum is already borderline unplayable even with Drog's patch, can't imagine it in its "vanilla" state.

 

[Lilura]

I've a feeling that's not how Lilura plays ToEE though.

Depends. Some bugs, glitches and exploits can be fun or interesting, like the ones you cited and the one I cited on the first page.

I'm not too sure about unmodded Arcanum. Arcanum is already borderline unplayable even with Drog's patch, can't imagine it in its "vanilla" state.

Again, I've done many runs of final patch VtMB/Arcanum, and can't remember one run where I quit in a huff because I couldn't proceed. Maybe I reloaded to an earlier save to get by a glitch, but it wasn't like I couldn't get through the game.

 

[Fairfax]

The frogs aren't a threat to veteran players; I've seen numerous posts from people who have struggled with them. I thought they were difficult myself the first time around and that was with a level 2 party that had completed the Hommlet daisy chain.

If the modders wanted to make the encounter more faithful, they should've made the frogs more dangerous. In T1, the encounter is quite difficult even for veteran players. Then again, it was always going to much easier in a CRPG due to the medium (and ruleset, in this case).

co8: pure fan fic

After his ouster, Gygax said Greyhawk was handed to envious designers who ruined his world. The 'Circle of Eight' was one of the casualties, so I suppose the name is fitting.

 

[Jason Liang]

Thinking back I do remember some bizarre hostility bugs and summoning bugs in vanilla (patched) ToEE, as well as broken quest chains.

iirc there was also an infinite quest xp bug where you could keeping getting the xp reward for one of the missions. Just weird sloppy shit like that.

 

[Max Damage]

When I started playing ToEE, I had very limited (if any) access to Internet. I bought the game despite very lukewarm reception from the press. And no matter how much piffle and hipster bullcrap you bring in, my review of the vanilla will be same any year. Citing the last Troika's release, "Good effort. Execution needs work". Now please proceed with your retardo parade further without me, for my head hurts from all the
Jason Liang one can never forget getting gold from enchanting weapons because of overflow.

 

[anvi]

Man the moathouse ambush was one the moments I enjoyed the most while playing Circle of Eight.

I loved the battle, but they should make it so it happens as you leave the moathouse map, not the moathouse itself. That way you can at least rest in the tower. Fighting while encumbered is bad enough but fighting with no spells is >.> I would rather have a battle that is 10 times harder but at least let me use some spells. Especially seeing as I like caster focused parties.

The frogs aren't a threat to veteran players; I've seen numerous posts from people who have struggled with them. I thought they were difficult myself the first time around and that was with a level 2 party that had completed the Hommlet daisy chain.

I think level 1 and 2 is generally just ass. I don't think anything in the game is really that challenging, it is just that even the frogs can 1 shot any of your team mates and then the next turn your entire team can miss their stuff. It is all about the luck of the roll, an enemy can kill you with one hit, or it can completely miss. The variance is as big as it can be. And your damage OUTput is the same deal, you can do a jumping spinny critical hit, or completely miss and do 0 damage. There is also the randomness of whether you go first or the enemies. With bad luck, the noob frogs can kill 1 or 2 of your team before you even get to do anything. Reload and the exact opposite happens. None of this is difficulty imo, it is just extreme randomness. And you can savescum as much as you want because you can even save mid battle.

At higher levels this doesn't really matter because a Fireball doesn't miss, and if my Fighter misses a few attacks, it doesn't really matter because at least he can dodge like a pro which is his main job anyway. Over the course of a fight, you win some RNG, you lose some RNG, but it all balances out. But at level 1 or 2, there is no time for things to balance out. You mostly win and lose based on who initiates first and gets a good hit.

I could dig it in the 90s but now it just seems old fashioned and bad design. You could reduce RNG to be less huge without it dumbing things down. No modern dev would ever get that right though, they either see things as 100% old school, or 100% newschool where every character is a superhero.

This is fake news until you cite where I said "Co8 are arrogant".

I'm the one who called them arrogant specifically citing their own words on the matter https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/toee-is-orgasmic.128943/page-3#post-6246934

They get carried away adding stuff and it can harm the balance of the game. Also the added encounters aren't as perfected as the base game (not that the base game was very perfected either, but still). I think getting ambushed at level 2 right after completing the final boss battle of the moathouse is just bad design. Yes it is satisfying to beat the fight using your last few spells and then relying on scrolls/potions, but it still seems arbitrary and needless. The opposite can be true as well, I am now level 8 and steamrolling the temple, yet I get a random encounter with some character called Ikian who is apparently an "Easter Egg" put in by modders. I gank him and his buddies and they drop a huge bunch of over powered gear. About three +1 swords, a bunch of magic armor and shields etc.

I don't dislike any of this, but when the original game is so good, it does seem arrogant to just start throwing in all sorts of new content. It would be nice if they could at least offer it in a modular way. Also the spelling and dialogue in all the Co8 added content is cringy. Not knowing the difference between their, there, they're, is weak. Also lines like, "Wow that sounds awesome" doesn't belong in an RPG.

 

[Lilura]

I bought the game despite very lukewarm reception from the press.

What do you want for that, some kind of reward? For fulfilling your duty to support Troika? For going against the press?

my review of the vanilla will be same any year. Citing the last Troika's release, "Good effort. Execution needs work".

You sound like the press.

 

[anvi]

I have some questions for you pros.

1) I keep forgetting to get a crafting feat on my level ups. I never usually craft anything in games, but it sounds powerful in TOEE. Is there 1 feat to rule them all that I could pick? I'd rather have crafting on just one guy. My party is fighter/cler/wiz/rog/druid. Gear on the casters seems mostly irrelevant. My fighter has a +1 sword, +1 shield, Magic Elven Chain which is quite ok, and he has 2 crappy rings. My rog has dagger of venom, a +1 dagger, +1 leather armor, no other items. I thought about buying buying something in Nulb seeing as I have zillions of gold and nothing to spend it on. I figured I could get the +3 bracer or something.

2) Where can you rest in the temple? I don't mind running to town because I like to hoard loot and then sell it all in the same trip as resting. But sometimes it would be nice to rest without going back home.

 

[Roguey]

Reload and the exact opposite happens. None of this is difficulty imo, it is just extreme randomness.

While levels 1 and 2 are too swingy, one can reliably kill frogs with good tactics and character builds.

2) Where can you rest in the temple? I don't mind running to town because I like to hoard loot and then sell it all in the same trip as resting. But sometimes it would be nice to rest without going back home.

iirc the gnome on level 1 will watch over you in his hideout.

 

[Fairfax]

I think level 1 and 2 is generally just ass. I don't think anything in the game is really that challenging, it is just that even the frogs can 1 shot any of your team mates and then the next turn your entire team can miss their stuff. It is all about the luck of the roll, an enemy can kill you with one hit, or it can completely miss. The variance is as big as it can be. And your damage OUTput is the same deal, you can do a jumping spinny critical hit, or completely miss and do 0 damage. There is also the randomness of whether you go first or the enemies. With bad luck, the noob frogs can kill 1 or 2 of your team before you even get to do anything. Reload and the exact opposite happens. None of this is difficulty imo, it is just extreme randomness. And you can savescum as much as you want because you can even save mid battle.

At higher levels this doesn't really matter because a Fireball doesn't miss, and if my Fighter misses a few attacks, it doesn't really matter because at least he can dodge like a pro which is his main job anyway. Over the course of a fight, you win some RNG, you lose some RNG, but it all balances out. But at level 1 or 2, there is no time for things to balance out. You mostly win and lose based on who initiates first and gets a good hit.

I could dig it in the 90s but now it just seems old fashioned and bad design. You could reduce RNG to be less huge without it dumbing things down. No modern dev would ever get that right though, they either see things as 100% old school, or 100% newschool where every character is a superhero.

From a new school perspective, you're right that it's too random and swingy. However, that's a matter of different design philosophies and player mentalities, and it doesn't match the original module's. Modern players tend to believe that any encounter should be balanced around the party and winnable in a fair fight (in CRPGs, usually through system mastery). In old school RPGs, fair fights are usually for suckers. You don't rely on character sheets and the dice to win a fight. You use everything you can to tip the odds in your favour.

Here's how the encounter would normally go with grognards playing 1E:

1. Giant frogs surprise the party.
2. Player #2: "lol, frogs?"
3. One of the frogs hits and almost kills the Fighter.
4. Players: "Fuck, let's retreat".
5. PCs go back to Hommlet, buy (or steal) oil flasks and more potions.
6. PCs return to the Moathouse. A couple of PCs go on a hunt on the way there.
7. They lure the frogs with food, throw the oil flasks, and set the area on fire while most PCs were ready to shoot arrows.
8. Party kills the frogs and prepares to explore the area around the Moathouse.

And with new school players playing new D&D editions:

1. Giant frogs surprise the party.
2. Players laugh, Player #4: "Can I roll to seduce the frog? xD"
3. One of the frogs hits the fighter and takes half of their hp.
4. Players: "Omg, we gotta kill these frogs!"
5. Rolls for initiative, players stick around to fight the frogs.
6. PC #4 dies swallowed by a frog. #1 and #2 are knocked out, but PC #3 lives and takes their bodies while retreating.
7. Players: "This is unfair!", "these frogs are OP, and we're just on level 1!"
8. Player #4 posts a thread on reddit: "Is my DM an asshole?"

The giant frogs are a great encounter (especially considering it was the first encounter ever for many who played it), because they're a good way of teaching players valuable lessons. The main lesson is that you shouldn't underestimate your enemies, a recurrent theme in Gygaxian modules. Players will often laugh at the giant frogs, but they usually stop once the frogs, which attack at once and have a 66% chance of surprising the party, kill a 1st level PC with ease (or laugh even harder). The module as a whole teaches the importance of scouting areas, resource management, cautious exploration, not relying on character skill, etc. Many players learned the hard way, with the frog encounter alone killing countless PCs over the years, but the vast majority has fond memories of it. There's a reason Troika chose the supermodule, after all.

 

[Melcar]

Wait. People actually died at the frog encounter?

 

[anvi]

The giant frogs are a great encounter (especially considering it was the first encounter ever for many who played it), because they're a good way of teaching players valuable lessons. The main lesson is that you shouldn't underestimate your enemies, a recurrent theme in Gygaxian modules. Players will often laugh at the giant frogs, but they usually stop once the frogs, which attack at once and have a 66% chance of surprising the party, kill a 1st level PC with ease (or laugh even harder). The module as a whole teaches the importance of scouting areas, resource management, cautious exploration, not relying on character skill, etc. Many players learned the hard way, with the frog encounter alone killing countless PCs over the years, but the vast majority has fond memories of it. There's a reason Troika chose the supermodule, after all.

I mostly agree, but I still think all this could be done way better. Not back then because the budgets for games was tiny... but still. Like I would love it if you can retreat reliably, and then come back and do the oil + fire trick. But you only have limited scope, even in this game. Also I like it when a character gets incapacitated because it makes for a fun oh shit moment that you have to take seriously and then win with fewer people. But when a character actually dies, especially at level 1, I think that sucks. I guess you can take them to the cleric to get resurrected, but I just reload if anyone dies, and very rarely is it my fault. For example I am killing stuff in the temple quite reliably, then I come across one admittedly badass looking dude. He starts the battle by summoning about 10 flame elemental things, and one of them casts a fireball that kills half my group with one blast. Sometimes I like to retry and win, but some battles seem like you just have to come back once you gain a level.

The RNG though, it is just so huge. I just beat a fight of 3 huge trolls in the temple which I must have had to reload 10 times but I was determined to win because I knew it was doable and I enjoyed it. But the first time, the boss troll runs about a mile, past all my characters, and one shots my wizard dead. This right at the start of the fight, even with improved initiative on a bunch of characters. There is just nothing you can do about that. Second attempt was totally different, I got to move a few of my characters first, so I put my Fighter in the doorway to block the boss troll from running through and 1 shotting my group. I put him on full defensive while my group killed the other 2 trolls, and then we could all focus on the big guy. It was fun and each attempt was quite different, but I think it takes the right mindset to enjoy something like that.

 

[anvi]

If I play this again I wont be using a rogue! If the enemy focuses my Fighter she does ok. But lately they will just turn and gank her. She is good at dodging but only has about 2 hp so it isn't good. I would probably replace her with a Ranger which I bet can do similar damage but from a mile away. Although really my Fighter is so godlike, he does a lot of damage and barely takes any hits. And Cleric is so good at healing, if I can get the enemies focused on the Fighter I can keep him alive forever. I like summoning a lot of creatures to do the damage.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

For example I am killing stuff in the temple quite reliably, then I come across one admittedly badass looking dude. He starts the battle by summoning about 10 flame elemental things, and one of them casts a fireball that kills half my group with one blast.

The fire temple battle against fire salamanders is one of the most difficult fights in the game if you're unprepared (as in playing blind, no walkthrough or metagaming shenanigans). I got my ass handed to me the first time.

 

[anvi]

Yea I tried him 3 times but there is just no chance. I could cast a bunch of protection spells before talking to him but I don't really like doing that. I'll go back in another level and make him my biatch, and if not, I'll buff hell out of my guys first. There is also a room on the first level down which I cleared earlier, and now it has walls up blocking the entrance. I had a character glitch through the door by mistake and they offered me a quest, but if you smash the wall down you get attacked by about 50 ogres and trolls and all sorts of shit. I am looking forward to that fight I figured I would kill all the easy battles first.

 

[Sitra Achara]

The opposite can be true as well, I am now level 8 and steamrolling the temple, yet I get a random encounter with some character called Ikian who is apparently an "Easter Egg" put in by modders.

Nope, that's original Troika content.

 

[anvi]

Oh :/

I just had the most epic battle I've probably ever had in a game! I went down to level 2 of the temple, same route I always go, but this time I meet Kelno and a massive army. I am right in the middle of all of them and they surround my whole team so can't move anyone. I thought about reloading and going a different route so I can approach them from the side but I was curious if it was doable. I had to savescum several attempts but my god I did it! Must have been 40+ enemies. I basically had my Fighter and Cleric on Total Defense the entire fight, they just tanked half the stuff. I save scummed like hell to get my Wiz and Druid out of the pile, and gradually managed to kill the ones that chased them. And finally I could focus on the original pile and kill it all. Took me about an hour. Cleric managed to get off circle of protection evil which I think really helped. At one point I had summoned 7 different creatures to fight. It doesn't get more epic! On one attempt I won but my Fighter died and I used a scroll of raise dead, but once I knew it was doable, I reloaded and did it again and ended up not having him die.

Still disappointed with Rogue, but she was quite useful in that fight because she killed several enemies and took a lot of attacks but dodged everything. I guess that makes her good. But it is hard to beat my Wizzy with his 4 fireballs and whatnot. The Ice Storm saved my ass because although the damage is mediocre, it seemed to slow the movement speed of the enemies I was kiting. So I run away, use that spell, and the ones chasing me ended up falling behind rather than staying on my ass every turn.

 

[biggestboss]

I bought this game on GOG a while back but uninstalled it because it kept flickering between windowed and full screen mode every time the screen transitioned. I guess it's time to visit the authoritative source on TOEE and find out what I need to install in order to make it playable.

 

[anvi]

Damn I missed a batch of extra spells on my cleric in the domain tab. She only had 1 for 8 levels when I could have had several >.< Facepalm. I also haven't used any item buffs yet, I am gonna try using Magical Vestment now that I have some decent gear. Also I just looted the Holy Ranseur which has awesome stats. Sucks I already specialized my Druid to use a Longspear. I need to remember that for next time.

I bought this game on GOG a while back but uninstalled it because it kept flickering between windowed and full screen mode every time the screen transitioned. I guess it's time to visit the authoritative source on TOEE and find out what I need to install in order to make it playable.

This game is amazing, definitely worth getting it working. It might just work right away if you use Temple+, that changes a lot. Later graphics driver might make the difference too.

 

[biggestboss]

Just beat the tutorial and it seems a lot more playable than I remembered, especially now that I've implemented the fonts that come with Temple+ so I can actually read the text without needing a microscope. I'm also playing exclusively in windowed mode so that I can alt+tab to read Codex and beat off when I'm bored.