Mod News TOEE: Livonya's Mod Beta 1.0

[Sarvis]

No they didn't.

Wrong.

You can argue on almost any forum. I'm here 'cause I cana rgue about role-playing games.

You can argue about role-playing games on almost any forum. I'm just here because you guys are wrong much more often than people on other forums!

Wrong. It's combat SYSTEM is its rdeeming quality. It's COMBAT was poor.

Splitting hairs. Combat basically IS the combat system, poor encounter design is just that... poor design. Some of the encounters were great though, and yes the combat system was excellent.

That's retarded VD talk.

Welll, he's wrong slightly less often than you.

I mean, if I really wanted the game to be hard; I could always play a solo mage who only uses his fists. R00fles!

Then why are you complaining that it was too easy?

Do not compare FO tb combat to POR2 tb combat. Fo's was awesome. Moron.

Wrong.

If the modder is as good as I hope they are; their talents are better used improving games hat are already good; not games that simply suck.

By that logic there would be far fewer modules for NWN...

Besides, you said yourself that ToEE had a good combat system (or at least admitted it was the redeeming quality) but that it was underused. If a modder can fix that... well let's just say you have no idea how much I wish ToEE had come with a toolset like NWNs...

 

[Volourn]

"Yeah, that is one way of looking at it, but another way of looking at it is that now we might have even more good games as a result of the modding"

Nah. That would just more disc changing and besides I like bringing my crappy games back in for trade ins to regain the $5 they are worth instead of having them pollute my good game shelf.


"By that logic there would be far fewer modules for NWN..."

Nope. NWN is a good game. It's no coincedence it has 2 expansions, and an upcoming sequel not to mention the fact it's so damn good I'm still playing it and the funny thing even as you bash it you still are too. Idiot.

And, as long as you bash Fo you just prove your retardedness.

And, no, COMBAT and COMBAT SYSTEM are two different things. they're linked; but very much different. Only a moron would think otherwise.

 

[Sarvis]

Nope. NWN is a good game. It's no coincedence it has 2 expansions, and an upcoming sequel not to mention the fact it's so damn good I'm still playing it and the funny thing even as you bash it you still are too. Idiot.

No, NWN is not a good game. Even you have admitted the OC is not very good. NWNs redeeming quality is the toolset. The ONLY reason the game became popular enough to warrant 2 expansions is the quality modules people like Stephan Gagne and Beerfish put out.

And while I do still play player created NWN modules occasionally I would ditch the game and engine in a SECOND if there were modules available for ToEE. In the meantime I'm far more likely to replay the ToEE campaign with this mod than I am to ever play one of the NWN OCs again.

And, as long as you bash Fo you just prove your retardedness.

It's combat system just isn't that good, and made worse by the use of AI controlled henchmen.

And, no, COMBAT and COMBAT SYSTEM are two different things. they're linked; but very much different. Only a moron would think otherwise.

You just keep believing that. I mean, don't let the fact that combat is simply the act of using the combat system deter you at all there...

 

[Volourn]

"Even you have admitted the OC is not very good."

If you are gonna spread lies about MY opinion and the greatness of Fo you aren't worth it. Come back when you are actually gonna be truthful and moral.

No one bashes FO and no one tells ME what MY opinion is.


Have fun.

Next.

R00fles!

 

[Jinxed]

First off, I want to say: Great work, Livonya.


Vol: If you examine the combat in a game you can seperate it into encounters and the combat system used to deal with them, sure.

But if anyone is that specific, I don't understand how they think NWN was a good game overall. IMO, everything sucked about it except the toolset, so using the same logic, you can brake NWN into many different things, all of those things suck except one. Of course, you might think that NWN ruled in all of it's aspects. I won't comment that.

 

[Sarvis]

"Even you have admitted the OC is not very good."

If you are gonna spread lies about MY opinion and the greatness of Fo you aren't worth it. Come back when you are actually gonna be truthful and moral.

No one bashes FO and no one tells ME what MY opinion is.


Have fun.

Next.

R00fles!

Oh really? Maybe I just misinterpreted this then?

Ignore the fools. Play NWN. The OC may not be the best game evr

And Fallout's combat just wasn't that fun. Simple as that. Give me control over the party members and it'd have potential... I'll admit it might get better at higher levels, but frankly I lost interest in the game before I got to higher levels.

NWN's combat system is more fun.

 

[Sol Invictus]

NWN sucked. HOTU made it playable and even fun in some cases, but I'll be damned if you expect anyone to think the OC was 'good'.

 

[Flink]

Chirst! How much shit can one person spew? Vol really needs a new hobby...

I often end up playing old games instead of playing new games.

I replayed Jagged Alliance in 2003. That may have been my favorite gaming experience in 2003. Kind of sad when my favorite game was an old game that I played many times.

***

I would LOVE it if there were just a few great new games that came out every year so that I didn't have to go back to the old ones. But that just isn't happening.

- Livonya

I too have been doing this for at least 2 or 3 years. Replaying old games, waiting for something good to come up. It hasn't. Very few new games can live up to the classics, which is very sad. ToEE had potential, as previously stated. When I first booted it up I remember feeling like this was going to be a new classic, but ones I got beyond the Moat House I realized that it was not to be. The saddest thing is that it got so many other things right. The spark was there, but again in the end it was not to be.

Again, I wish you luck Livonya. I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

 

[Mefi]

First off, Livonya's mod is an astounding piece of work. Looking at what Livonya has posted it seems that a potentially great game got well and truly shafted - all NPCs having the same AI script is just crap.

I stayed well clear of ToEE because of all the problems I knew it had on release and then decided if the company which made it couldn't be arsed to support it properly then I couldn't be bothered to waste my money on it. I got it recently because I heard that Co8 had solved most of the major problems and it cost less than a pack of cigs. Liv's mod has just put icing on the cake.

Sure Fallout is a great game. But I'm damn tired of playing Fallout.

NWN is a truly awful game redeemed only by its modability and some excellent work by modders.

RPG games based on a party of characters are just not being produced in quantity (or quality) any more. Hell, I've been playing Bloodwych (ye olde donjon crawle) on my ST because I've been struggling to find anything else worth playing.

The market is saturated with 'over the shoulder' clones. Seeing even a two year old game of the type I want to play being patched and modded to respectability is great for an old pencil and paper gamer like me.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

NWN's combat system is more fun.

NWN's combat system was dreadfully boring until the expansion packs. Unless you're a spell caster, there wasn't much in the way of things to do in combat other than watch and occationally drink a potion. At least Fallout's combat system had AP management to give you something to do at it's most passive level, i.e. melee character completely surrounded.

 

[Sarvis]

I dunno, FO's system is basically the same thing except turn based so you have to click the enemy every time to attack.

I guess playing around with grenades and such might help, but what would REALLY have helped is full party control. It's both frustrating AND tedious to have your henchman run into the middle of a room filled with enemies instead of waiting outside with you to shoot them as they exit the building... it's like they got an early version of NWN's AI scripts to use for Fallout. Blech.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Splitting hairs. Combat basically IS the combat system (...)

No. A combat system is the underlying set of parameters that define the rules of combat, and the set of options and features you can use in combat. Combat is just the state of events where the options you have in the combat system come into use. As an example, Temple of Elemental Evil's combat system is great; combat is ocasionally simplistic. Which is to say, great combat system to use, but put to waste because the combat isn't structured to validate all those options.

 

[Jinxed]

I guess playing around with grenades and such might help, but what would REALLY have helped is full party control. It's both frustrating AND tedious to have your henchman run into the middle of a room filled with enemies instead of waiting outside with you to shoot them as they exit the building... it's like they got an early version of NWN's AI scripts to use for Fallout. Blech.

At the same time many would argue that full party control takes away a lot of the personality from fallout npcs. Hell, I know they basically do the same thing but I like it the way it is, if I had full control over them, it would be too easy.

Sulik you dumb fuck! You are getting in the way of my burst shots!

Combat doesn't happen exactly the way you want and that makes it more exciting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Think it's too easy? Take a weaker party."

That's retarded VD talk. I mean, if I really wanted the game to be hard; I could always play a solo mage who only uses his fists. R00fles!

Don't you know that it's impolite to flame a person who isn't participating in a conversation? Didn't your mama try to teach your obviously stupid ass some manners?

Anyway, as I told you many times before, first, the game aint THAT easy (you're well aware of how many people complained that it was too hard). Now KOTOR 2, that's too easy. ToEE is simply not very challenging for EXPERIENCED players who understand DnD and its mysterious concepts. Second, unlike K2, there are many different classes, and multiclass options, that can create a huge variety of parties ranging from extremely easy to impossibly challenging. This is not the same as nerfing a party on purpose.

Having said that, there is no denying that ToEE could have been more challenging and magic should have played a much stronger role in combat, what with it being a temple and all.

PS. You are still a dick though.:wink:

 

[Spazmo]

Okay, so your major complaint is that ToEE combat was too easy?

Then why, praytell, are you so unhappy about a mod that mostly makes combat tougher?

 

[Volourn]

Ex: "but I'll be damned if you expect anyone to think the OC was 'good'."

LOL I don't expect the idiots here to think anything. They usually don't think at all. Obviously, you have totally ignored the fact that many people DO think that the OC was good. Yeah, yeah. I know. Those people are just fnaboys and morons. R00fles!


SP: "NWN's combat system was dreadfully boring until the expansion packs"

Bullshit. The combat is the same all the way throuygh. Afterall, knockdown, called shots, and the like were all available from the start. NWN has th second most combat options in any RPG that I've played. Only TOEE has more. Only an idiot would think otherwise.\


VD: "Don't you know that it's impolite to flame a person who isn't participating in a conversation?"

And? It's the 'Codex. I'm just following the Codex Gods' example.


"Didn't your mama try to teach your obviously stupid ass some manners?"

Yes; but I was fucking your mum so I didn't hear what she said.


"Anyway, as I told you many times before, first, the game aint THAT easy (you're well aware of how many people complained that it was too hard)."

Hahaha. I could point to the NWN baords and show ya how many people had a hard time with NWN. or worse, the idiots who had difficulty with KOTOR series combat. This proves nothing.


"Now KOTOR 2, that's too easy."

Now, go ahead and please point out where I stated matter of factly that TOEE's combat was easier than KOTOR2's. You'd be ahrd pressed to as I never said that. Nice try; though.


"You are still a dick though."

Exactly why I fit in here.


Spaz: "Okay, so your major complaint is that ToEE combat was too easy?

Then why, praytell, are you so unhappy about a mod that mostly makes combat tougher?"

Because, I have absolutely nod esire to reinstall a game *just* to play a mod no matter how good it is when I play games I actually enjoy.

Remember folks, I'm not bashing the modmaker here; but the game. I just think she's better off using her talents on other games than a crap game like TOEE.


That is all.

 

[Vykromond]

What the hell is wrong with Age of Wonders? That's a fantastic game.

 

[Sarvis]

Splitting hairs. Combat basically IS the combat system (...)

No. A combat system is the underlying set of parameters that define the rules of combat, and the set of options and features you can use in combat. Combat is just the state of events where the options you have in the combat system come into use. As an example, Temple of Elemental Evil's combat system is great; combat is ocasionally simplistic. Which is to say, great combat system to use, but put to waste because the combat isn't structured to validate all those options.

Yeah, whatever.

I guess playing around with grenades and such might help, but what would REALLY have helped is full party control. It's both frustrating AND tedious to have your henchman run into the middle of a room filled with enemies instead of waiting outside with you to shoot them as they exit the building... it's like they got an early version of NWN's AI scripts to use for Fallout. Blech.

At the same time many would argue that full party control takes away a lot of the personality from fallout npcs. Hell, I know they basically do the same thing but I like it the way it is, if I had full control over them, it would be too easy.

Sulik you dumb fuck! You are getting in the way of my burst shots!

Combat doesn't happen exactly the way you want and that makes it more exciting.

No.

First of all, it doesn't give them any personality. It just makes them seem like retarded automatons.

SEcond, in a real situation I would be able to plan out a strategy beforehand with my teammates.

The specific example I have in mind is this one dude in the Hub needs his house cleared out of bandits. So I go there, and open the door thinking I can stand off to the side and shoot them as they come out... but my dumbfuck of a henchman just runs in there and gets himself slaughtered in a round. There is no reason I shouldn't have been able to plan out a strategy like opening the door shoot inside to get their attention, then both of us duck around the opposite corners for cover and shoot the bandits from both directions as they come out looking for us.

It's just retarded.

Frankly, here's what I think it would take to make FO combat actually fun:

1) Full party control
2) More AP cost for moving, less for shooting
3) Cover bonuses for being behind things
4) Ability to lean out and shoot around corners.


Without those options why not just have diablo style combat? It'd work pretty well for a shooting game, and would've been a lot more fun.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD: "Don't you know that it's impolite to flame a person who isn't participating in a conversation?"

And? It's the 'Codex. I'm just following the Codex Gods' example.

I see. I didn't know you were a "follower", I thought you had that individuality thing going , what with all the r00fles and retarded quoting.

"Didn't your mama try to teach your obviously stupid ass some manners?"

Yes; but I was fucking your mum so I didn't hear what she said.

She did mention a weird guy why couldn't get it up untill she dressed up as Aribeth. I should have realized it was you.

"Anyway, as I told you many times before, first, the game aint THAT easy (you're well aware of how many people complained that it was too hard)."

Hahaha. I could point to the NWN baords and show ya how many people had a hard time with NWN. or worse, the idiots who had difficulty with KOTOR series combat. This proves nothing.

The difference is in the gameplay. In KOTOR 2 it's almost impossible to make a mistake, and no matter what character you choose, it's easy. Same with NWN.

"Now KOTOR 2, that's too easy."

Now, go ahead and please point out where I stated matter of factly that TOEE's combat was easier than KOTOR2's. You'd be ahrd pressed to as I never said that. Nice try; though.

That was an example.

"You are still a dick though."

Exactly why I fit in here.

True dat.

Remember folks, I'm not bashing the modmaker here; but the game. I just think she's better off using her talents on other games than a crap game like TOEE.

Yeah, she should make a NWN mode like Volourn! Btw, speaking of your mod, show us what you've got.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Livonya you rock! good luck with all your work!

 

[Sarvis]

The difference is in the gameplay. In KOTOR 2 it's almost impossible to make a mistake, and no matter what character you choose, it's easy. Same with NWN.

THat's just not true with NWN. I just couldn't get through the second chapter of the OC with my first character, because I was completely unfamiliar with the rules and such so he basically sucked. I hear rogues generally have a pretty hard time too.

Yeah, she should make a NWN mode like Volourn! Btw, speaking of your mod, show us what you've got.

Nah, I'd rather see modules in a game with a GOOD combat system!

 

[Volourn]

"I see. I didn't know you were a "follower", I thought you had that individuality thing going , what with all the r00fles and retarded quoting."

You can follow someone's example and still be your own person. Afterall, I want game devloeprs to follow BG and FO as examples of great RPGs; but I sure as heck don't want them to make BG or FO. That be retarded.


"The difference is in the gameplay. In KOTOR 2 it's almost impossible to make a mistake, and no matter what character you choose, it's easy."

Again with KOTOR2. You are preaching to the choir if youa re trying to claim that KOTOR2 is easier than TOEE. Idiot.


"Nah, I'd rather see modules in a game with a GOOD combat system!"

Yet, you still play NWN mods, anyways. What a tool.


"Same with NWN."

Liar. And, I'm glad you called people like SP a liar as he claims rogues 'get screwed' in NWN. Hahahaha!


"Yeah, she should make a NWN mode like Volourn!"

Sure beats one for TOEE. Heck, it be better if she made one for MW and I hate MW 1 million times more than I hate TOEE.


"Btw, speaking of your mod, show us what you've got."

Why would I share a mod for agame the Codex doens't like? That be retarded. I'd rather wate your time with other shit. I have shown my mod (or what's done of it) with others; but I will not share it with people who I *know* won't like it. Afterall, you guys feel the graphics, music, game play, combat, etc. suck for NWN and all those things exist in my mod so why the hell would I worry what you think about it. It be a waste of effort to prove myself.

I have QA people (or should I say 2 since the others failed at their duty) helping me go through with it while I continue to work on doing the dialogue which give or take a few things is all that's left.

You will never see the Witchetas! Never!


"Nah, I'd rather see modules in a game with a GOOD combat system!"

Yet you continue to play NWN modules. What a tool.

 

[Sarvis]

Yet, you still play NWN mods, anyways. What a tool.

How so? Yes, I play a bunch of player created modules. The reason being that they often have engaging storylines and I DO enjoy leveling my characters and playing around with new abilities and such. Those are the things that have kept me playing NWN all this time, the combat system is what makes me get bored and not touch it for months on end. It's what made me not finish the last module I was playing, even.

NWN has some great qualities, it's combat system is not one of them.

Sure beats one for TOEE. Heck, it be better if she made one for MW and I hate MW 1 million times more than I hate TOEE.

Wrong.

Why would I share a mod for agame the Codex doens't like? That be retarded. I'd rather wate your time with other shit. I have shown my mod (or what's done of it) with others; but I will not share it with people who I *know* won't like it. Afterall, you guys feel the graphics, music, game play, combat, etc. suck for NWN and all those things exist in my mod so why the hell would I worry what you think about it. It be a waste of effort to prove myself.

I have QA people (or should I say 2 since the others failed at their duty) helping me go through with it while I continue to work on doing the dialogue which give or take a few things is all that's left.

You will never see the Witchetas! Never!

What he really means by this is that a Bioware AI script can't actually finish making a module for NWN... which is no surprise really.

"Nah, I'd rather see modules in a game with a GOOD combat system!"

Yet you continue to play NWN modules. What a tool.

ROFL! If I'm an idiot for replying to the same poster twice in a row, what are you for responding to the same comment twice in one post?

 

[Volourn]

"What he really means by this is that a Bioware AI script can't actually finish making a module for NWN... which is no surprise really."

Nice trolling. However, sadly for you, the mod is on its way to completion. Of course, I don't feel the need to send you a copy in some lame attempt to prove it either so keep up the good work in being wrong.

My mod may very well suck; but it will be completed. Then again, my 2-4 hour mod may very well end up with more dialogue than most full length games. R00fles! And, writing dialogue while I normally love to do cna get pretty tedious in game/mod making. I've learned this the hard way, sadly.


"what are you for responding to the same comment twice in one post?"

I've come to learn that with certain people you have to repeat yourself to get the point across. You happen to be one of those people.


"what are you for responding to the same comment twice in one post?"

I've come to learn that with certain people you have to repeat yourself to get the point across. You happen to be one of those people.

 

[Sarvis]

"What he really means by this is that a Bioware AI script can't actually finish making a module for NWN... which is no surprise really."

Nice trolling. However, sadly for you, the mod is on its way to completion. Of course, I don't feel the need to send you a copy in some lame attempt to prove it either so keep up the good work in being wrong.

My mod may very well suck; but it will be completed. Then again, my 2-4 hour mod may very well end up with more dialogue than most full length games. R00fles! And, writing dialogue while I normally love to do cna get pretty tedious in game/mod making. I've learned this the hard way, sadly.


"what are you for responding to the same comment twice in one post?"

I've come to learn that with certain people you have to repeat yourself to get the point across. You happen to be one of those people.


"what are you for responding to the same comment twice in one post?"

I've come to learn that with certain people you have to repeat yourself to get the point across. You happen to be one of those people.

Awww.... how cute. He thinks he has a point!