Game News Torment Kickstarter Update #9: Chris Avellone!

[tuluse]

Book analogy doesn't work. It's a solo activity. Video games are a collaborative art form. Compare it to music where your favorite musicians do an album together, or a movie.

Plus the structure of games is really different from a book too, which lessons the problem even more. In a book it would be a bad thing is chapter 3 was written by a different person from chapters 1, 2, 4, and 5. But that doesn't matter in a game, where you expect to not follow a linear narrative right down a straight path.

 

[Brother None]

Precisely that. I'd rather have a single writer going batshit insane than a bunch of them trying to reach consistency among them.

It currently has as many writers as Planescape: Torment did, only on ToN a bunch of em can only work parttime. So uh...what? Videogames of this scope don't usually get written by a single writer going batshit insane, not even PS:T was. MotB wasn't (six designers + six additional design). Take New Vegas; Lead Writer John Gonzalez, Writers MCA, Eric Fenstermaker, Travis Stout, Additional Writing seven people. Yeah.

 

[Kz3r0]

What is wrong with them keeping adding people, when they even hired an editor specifically to manage the consistency for this project?

Precisely that. I'd rather have a single writer going batshit insane than a bunch of them trying to reach consistency among them.

The only reason why the one guy myth exists in videogames is because many people were never given due credit, it has been already said that Avellone had other seven people writing the game with him, true, he wrote the most of the game, an unprecedented feat, but usually there are two or three lead writers.

 

[Orma]

AVELLONE!

 

[felipepepe]

The danger is that sometimes consistency becomes mediocrity. Sometimes the most memmorable stuff is exactly what stands out from the rest...I'm not sure if stuff like Mitsoda's talking stop sign, or even the Jew Gnome Conspiracy in Arcanum would get past a editor trying to keep "consistency".

Anyway, it remains to be seen. Those are just scenarios, and the outcome is decided by those playing In the end, is all about your thrust on the team.

Precisely that. I'd rather have a single writer going batshit insane than a bunch of them trying to reach consistency among them.

It currently has as many writers as Planescape: Torment did, only on ToN a bunch of em can only work parttime. So uh...what? Videogames of this scope don't usually get written by a single writer going batshit insane, not even PS:T was. MotB wasn't (six designers + six additional design). Take New Vegas; Lead Writer John Gonzalez, Writers MCA, Eric Fenstermaker, Travis Stout, Additional Writing seven people. Yeah.

Is very different to have one lead guy and some assistants to having lots of big shots that were saluted as strecth goals... people and egos are hard to manage.

 

[Monty]

The danger is that sometimes consistency becomes mediocrity. Sometimes the most memmorable stuff is exactly what stands out from the rest...I'm not sure if stuff like Mitsoda's talking stop sign, or even the Jew Gnome Conspiracy in Arcanum would get past a editor trying to keep "consistency".

Anyway, it remains to be seen. Those are just scenarios, and the outcome is decided by those playing In the end, is all about your thrust on the team.

So your argument has changed from not wanting lots of writers contributing ideas, to not wanting an editor inhibiting all these ideas?

I would be more inclined to agree with you if we were talking about a massive company hiring hundreds of staff for a project and throwing in extra layers of management. But we're talking about a small developer and the reality is if we want to see a top quality game they needed to add to the bare-bones approach they (understandably) had initially. So far it's good news.

 

[tuluse]

Bloodlines:

Design, Dialog and Story: Brian Mitsoda, Chad Moore, TJ Perillo, Jason D. Anderson, Leonard Boyarsky
Additional Design and Dialog: Stephen Bokkes, Tiffany Chu, David Webb

Arcanum:

Design: Sissie Chang, Tiffany Chu, Scott Jacobson, Cynthia Komm
Writing / Dialogue / Story: Edward R. G. Mortimer

Edit: Kind of odd that Cain didn't give himself any design credit for Arcanum, but Jason D. Anderson, Leonard Boyarsky, Timothy Cain all have "project leader" credits.

 

[felipepepe]

So your argument has changed from not wanting lots of writers contributing ideas, to not wanting an editor inhibiting all these ideas?

Is the same thing, for having a bunch of writers imply that will be some form of moderation, be it from an editor or the group itself.

I don't say this out of the blue, in my line of work I've witness (and took part on some) the writting "brainstorm" process of many videos, documentaries and tv ads. The more people into it, the more the unusual points were cut out, going for something that doesn't bother anyone... in 2011 we won many prizes with a ad campaign for Nissan, staring "Dammed Ponies" (huehues here will remember that) and it only worked because the sole writter had the authority to stand for his script and avoid the edits that other people in the company wanted to make...

 

[Brother None]

Oh yes, game design is notorious for working just like TV advertisement production.

 

[CMcC]

it only worked because the sole writter had the authority to stand for his script and avoid the edits that other people in the company wanted to make...

Man, if only we had someone on this project who was responsible for the overall creative vision.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I think that this is analogous o a very thematically constrained anthology. I mean, they are writing semi self-contained, modular stories, dialogues, characters and assorted quantity of text for the game. Is not that they all will work on the same thing at the same time. Then an editor will stitch together all this pieces and weave a consistent, terse, plothole-less grand story of sorts.

Oh wait, this is the Codex. Sorry, I was carried away with the optimism... Yeah, totally agree with you, felipepepe. Too many cooks, too many big egos. This shit is going to be very bad.

 

[felipepepe]

Oh yes, game design is notorious for working just like TV advertisement production.

You're not gonna reduce this to "you must develop a game to be ale to talk about game development", are you bro? As far as I can tell, no one here has been in the writting team of a big RPG, so we are all talking based on our own experiences... (and that probably includes your knowledge on how TV advertisement production works).

it only worked because the sole writter had the authority to stand for his script and avoid the edits that other people in the company wanted to make...

Man, if only we had someone on this project who was responsible for the overall creative vision.

You're are missing the point completly. The person "responsible for the overall creative vision", was precisely the one trying to censor it, since it was clearly ouside the brand's image. The writer managed to press in, and what we got? The most awarded ad of 2011.

 

[tuluse]

no one here has been in the writting team of a big RPG

CMcC

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Eric Fenstermaker.

Man get THIS motherfucker involved, STAT!

 

[Brother None]

Eric's p awesome yeah. Underappreciated. Is he working on PE? Hope so.

You're not gonna reduce this to "you must develop a game to be ale to talk about game development", are you bro? As far as I can tell, no one here has been in the writting team of a big RPG, so we are all talking based on our own experiences... (and that probably includes your knowledge on how TV advertisement production works).

Planescape: Torment, VtM: Bloodlines, Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, you name it, they all worked with multiple writers and/or designers and - usually - one creative lead. Some more than Torment currently has, some less. You're the one making the claim that despite this being a proven methodology with all of these games, a few of which you've cited as good examples of creative vision, Torment following this same methodology is a bad thing. And your only evidence for this statement is "trust me, I know how this works, I work in advertising". How seriously did you expect me to take you?

 

[CMcC]

You're are missing the point completly. The person "responsible for the overall creative vision", was precisely the one trying to censor it, since it was clearly ouside the brand's image. The writer managed to press in, and what we got? The most awarded ad of 2011.

Creative tension can be a good thing. Plus, I'll note that all of our writers are professionals, and many of them have experience working under a lead and accepting that the overarching narrative isn't their responsibility, or else AS a lead and thus understanding the importance of not letting their egos get in the way. Nathan Long, George Ziets, Tony Evans, Chris Avellone, Brian Mitsoda, Mur Lafferty, Adam Heine - they've all been part of a similar production process. Pat already made it abundantly clear that he is going to treat this project as if I were the editor of an anthology with the freedom to cut his text as necessary. So I have to say that I'm really not seeing the problem you describe.

 

[Capitalism]

CMcC will be a good leader for the writing team.

 

[BobtheTree]

In before Codex goes broke getting this game to 3.5 mill.

 

[felipepepe]

Planescape: Torment, VtM: Bloodlines, Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, you name it, they all worked with multiple writers and/or designers and - usually - one creative lead. Some more than Torment currently has, some less. You're the one making the claim that despite this being a proven methodology with all of these games, a few of which you've cited as good examples of creative vision, Torment following this same methodology is a bad thing. And your only evidence for this statement is "trust me, I know how this works, I work in advertising". How seriously did you expect me to take you?

Torment 2 may have a similar structure, but you're piling up many "hotshots" of the industry, all them with their egos, views, feelings and friendships. Regardless of business area, there is a huge difference from having one or two hotshots and some assitants to having a bunch of hotshots together... with MCA 7 "bonuses" designers are joining the team, incluiding Monte Cook. That's not something easy to manage, I think we can all agree.

And I expect you to take me as seriously as any other poster here. I am not from the game industry, but that doesn't mean that concerns or experiences I've gone throught are completly invalid for discussing games. I never said "trust me, I work in advertising", just as the rest of the people here don't sign with their professions beneath their post, for no one needs this sort of "justification". "Too many cooks spoil the broth" is not something I came up due my profession, but a valid concern on the matter of pilling up writers like this.

Creative tension can be a good thing. Plus, I'll note that all of our writers are professionals, and many of them have experience working under a lead and accepting that the overarching narrative isn't their responsibility, or else AS a lead and thus understanding the importance of not letting their egos get in the way. Nathan Long, George Ziets, Tony Evans, Chris Avellone, Brian Mitsoda, Mur Lafferty, Adam Heine - they've all been part of a similar production process. Pat already made it abundantly clear that he is going to treat this project as if I were the editor of an anthology with the freedom to cut his text as necessary. So I have to say that I'm really not seeing the problem you describe.

I hope you're right bro, and that you indeed have the vision to deliver us the most interesting works of your writters, not just the "greatest hits" and "radio friendly songs".

 

[Brother None]

Ok ok, I admit I was too terse, felipepepe, I apologize, but I think Colin's given you a good thoughtful reply now. Although...

Nathan Long, George Ziets, Tony Evans, Chris Avellone, Brian Mitsoda, Mur Lafferty, Adam Heine - they've all been part of a similar production process. Pat already made it abundantly clear that he is going to treat this project as if I were the editor of an anthology with the freedom to cut his text as necessary. So I have to say that I'm really not seeing the problem you describe.

No problem indeed, except for the pretty inevitable occurrence of you going into complete fangirl mode with Pat

 

[Mrowak]

I just pray to God they won't treat us with endless spam of cutscenes to "tell the story". If they manage to actually develop gameplay capable of achieving this feat, I am fine with any approach as long as they get the job done.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

If ever a game deserved a Codex fundraiser... it is this one.

 

[CMcC]

Ok ok, I admit I was too terse, felipepepe, I apologize, but I think Colin's given you a good thoughtful reply now. Although...

Nathan Long, George Ziets, Tony Evans, Chris Avellone, Brian Mitsoda, Mur Lafferty, Adam Heine - they've all been part of a similar production process. Pat already made it abundantly clear that he is going to treat this project as if I were the editor of an anthology with the freedom to cut his text as necessary. So I have to say that I'm really not seeing the problem you describe.

No problem indeed, except for the pretty inevitable occurrence of you going into complete fangirl mode with Pat

... did I mention that he has a soft beard?

 

[felipepepe]

Ok ok, I admit I was too terse, felipepepe, I apologize, but I think Colin's given you a good thoughtful reply now. Although...

Don't worry, you're still on my brolist.

And yeah, Colin gave a good answer. In the end is all about trusting the team to do their best, and now we can all blame him if the game doesn't delivers.

 

[CMcC]

I hope you're right bro, and that you indeed have the vision to deliver us the most interesting works of your writters, not just the "greatest hits" and "radio friendly songs".

Thanks. Sincerely. (just between us and the rest of the internet, I'm trying to avoid thinking about how monumental a task this is and am instead trusting to a) ksaun and his ability to organize, and b) everyone being a total professional in this gig.)