Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Pre-Release Thread [ALPHA RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[GueulEclator]

A sci-fi post apocalyptic setting? Wow, so original. I totally never saw an rpg in that setting, especially recently. What's next, steampunk?

I was expecting better for the torment sequel. The whole plane/dimension fantasy was much more interesting. Now expect to see mostly nihilistic theme, and indoctrination bullshit with uber powerfull technological being messing your mind from the very begining, robots/human/dumb_object confusion, disregard of the whole soul concept and all the other good stuff associated with sci-fi. Great.
Sci-fi gives way too much power to entities that have figured out how to use technology, because unlike magic, technology potential is limitless, and they can just mess with the whole galaxy your in, at will. Which of course doesn't fit with the human dimension of an RPG.

Let's face it, humans become obsolete after the technology reach a certain point, and that's why fantasy is such a failure for a one-character focused RPG.
Or else they come up with ridiculous luck/plot twist like in mass effect, to explain why a random idiot like shephard can stop beings that could have anihilated the universe in the very first seconds of the game.

 

[Wulfstand]

For people like me who have no idea wtf Numenera is:

Numenera is a science fantasy roleplaying game set in the far distant future. Humanity lives amid the remnants of eight great civilizations that have risen and fallen on Earth. These are the people of the Ninth World. This new world is filled with remnants of all the former worlds: bits of nanotechnology, the dataweb threaded among still-orbiting satellites, bio-engineered creatures, and myriad strange and wondrous devices. These remnants have become known as the numenera.

Player characters explore this world of mystery and danger to find these leftover artifacts of the past, not to dwell upon the old ways, but to help forge their new destinies, utilizing the so-called “magic” of the past to create a promising future.

http://www.numenera.com

So basically, PS:T's spiritual successor will be set in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time?

 

[iZerw]

A high fantasy multi-dimensional setting? Wow, so original.

The devil is in the details, my friend.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/CMcComb/q/413403568855346007

Seriously, though. How do you feel about your work on Torment now? What will we see of the design philosphy behind it aside from themes in the new Torment?

I'm still happy with how Torment went, but looking back on it I can think of a number of ways I'd have improved my work. We'll be seeing deep reactivity and serious focus on tracking the player's actions; I was just discussing that this morning with Adam and Kevin, actually. We want to be sure to continue to subvert the standards of the genre, and we had a serious talk about how we might improve the metagame without catering to the metagamers.

Our basic pillars are: the thematic exploration, naturally; a deep and involved storyline focused on the player, rather than an epic struggle (though there will certainly be elements epic struggle, simply by virtue of who the player will be); memorable and reactive companions who grow and change throughout the story based on your actions with them; a hugely different setting (check!); and vivid, interesting writing - about which we'll have a lot more to say pretty shortly.

http://www.formspring.me/CMcComb/q/413423464976768772

How do you feel about the current use of morality systems in games?

I think they're a little limited. For one thing, they tend to be overly simplistic and absolute, and often are directed so broadly that there's no question what the right choice is. This Penny Arcade strip lays it out pretty well:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/3/27

The real problem is that morality is frequently not so black and white, especially not in the eyes of the people who are watching your actions. What you think is good might wind up doing serious harm to someone else, and your evil actions might wind up being beneficial to others. Part of this is due to the legacy of the alignment system; alternately, you see these systems in games where the universe itself rewards extremes of behavior (Planescape, for instance, or Star Wars). When you're talking about a world where the provable nature of Good and Evil no longer exists, however, you need to reconsider how to develop a morality system.

One of the discussions we have been having is about removing polar axes from our game and tracking individual decisions on their own merits. This is still entirely theoretical, but I think we might have the germ of something cool and something that allows for a greater degree of realistic choice.

Looks like they're gonna the Obsidian route as far as that stuff goes?

 

[Dexter]

I still don't know why they need the "Torment IP" for this game other than pure Marketing. It obviously doesn't have much to do with Planescape setting-wise and it'll likely be another 3D Unity-based games instead of going painterly-style, which game Planescape: Torment the look and feel it had.

 

[Kirtai]

Looks like they're gonna the Obsidian route as far as that stuff goes?

This feels like it fits a faction style system more than a morality system. Especially the "in the eyes of the people who are watching your actions" bit.

 

[Infinitron]

it'll likely be another 3D Unity-based games instead of going painterly-style, which game Planescape: Torment the look and feel it had.

We don't know that yet. If they're going from TB to RT then there's no reason why they wouldn't also go from 3D to 2D.

Unity has nothing to do with it, Project Eternity is using Unity.

 

[Surf Solar]

I still don't know why they need the "Torment IP" for this game other than pure Marketing.

Fargo's gonna Fargo.

 

[GueulEclator]

A high fantasy multi-dimensional setting? Wow, so original.

The devil is in the details, my friend.

What I mean is that now sci-fi/post apocalyptic is overused in great games. Any medieval/antiquity setting is only used in shitty iOS/browser games, nowadays.
And no, a setting like Planescape torment, involving a city in the center of the universe, full of portals that leads to fucked up dimension, was never used that much. Same for any LOW fantasy medieval game. Worst is antiquity/Meso-American RPG. They are completely untouched.

Also,

I was expecting better for the torment sequel. The whole plane/dimension fantasy was much more interesting. Now expect to see mostly nihilistic theme, and indoctrination bullshit with uber powerfull technological being messing your mind from the very begining, robots/human/dumb_object confusion, disregard of the whole soul concept and all the other good stuff associated with sci-fi. Great.
Sci-fi gives way too much power to entities that have figured out how to use technology, because unlike magic, technology potential is limitless, and they can just mess with the whole galaxy your in, at will. Which of course doesn't fit with the human dimension of an RPG.

Let's face it, humans become obsolete after the technology reach a certain point, and that's why fantasy is such a failure for a one-character focused RPG.
Or else they come up with ridiculous luck/plot twist like in mass effect, to explain why a random idiot like shephard can stop beings that could have anihilated the universe in the very first seconds of the game.

I believe that part is the most relevant.

 

[Dexter]

They're just setting up expectations they couldn't possibly fulfill, Wasteland was a long time ago and not nearly as iconic or well known as Planescape: Torment. Now they're gonna have to explain to a lot of people what this got to do with "Torment" and how it will be similar to Planescape instead of making a game in their own right they can present and promote on its own strong points. But I guess Fargo is betting on mentioning "Torment" and people blanking out everything else.

 

[Infinitron]

Here comes the butthurt!!!


Also, Monte Cook posted a Numenera Kickstarter update about this: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...roleplaying-game-from-monte-cook/posts/383127

Remember how I said there would be a cool Numenera-related announcement a while back? Well, here it is:

Numenera is now going to be a computer game as well as a tabletop RPG!

I recently made a deal with Brian Fargo of InExile Entertainment to make Numenera the basis for the new Torment game. The lead designer is my old friend (and fellow Planescape designer) Colin McComb. Here's more information in the form of an interview with Brian:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/09/planescape-torment-sequel/

I imagine after the success he had with Wasteland 2, Brian will Kickstart the new game. I don't have more to say at this time beyond the fact that I'm really excited about all of this!

Thanks, as ever, for all your support!

Monte

 

[suejak]

Sounds okay to me. Although sometimes I wonder if I liked Planescape more than I liked Torment.

Faction systems are the only good way I've ever seen morality/reputation done... Literally every game I've played with a coherent faction-based relationship/morality/reputation system has been amazing -- notably Fallout 2 and Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/CMcComb

 

[LeStryfe79]

Numenera is set a billion years in the future after 9 apocalypses.

 

[Surf Solar]

Does that guy mean with "Adahn" the TNO? Or just the person you could "create" with your thoughts? If it is the former, since when is this confirmed as the official name of the, duh, TNO?

 

[Jaesun]

TNO's real name is Steve.

 

[hiver]

A sci-fi post apocalyptic setting? Wow, so original.

Correction - a science fiction - post apocalyptic - fantasy setting, my dear.

Now expect to see mostly nihilistic theme,

How do you know that? The answer is - you dont.

and indoctrination bullshit with uber powerfull technological being messing your mind from the very begining,

is science fiction somehow magically forced to use this particular trick?

robots/human/dumb_object confusion,

Er...what?

disregard of the whole soul concept

complete bullshit.

and all the other good stuff associated with sci-fi. Great.

o_O

Sci-fi gives way too much power to entities that have figured out how to use technology,

You read shit sci-fi. I suggest reading more science fiction - of a good kind.

because unlike magic, technology potential is limitless,

Bullshit - stupidity - a lie - serious misunderstanding.

and they can just mess with the whole galaxy your in, at will.

reading too much shit sci-fi.

Which of course doesn't fit with the human dimension of an RPG.

jesus fing christ....

Let's face it, humans become obsolete after the technology reach a certain point,

bullshit - unsubstantiated lie - serious misundertsanding of everything.

and that's why fantasy is such a failure for a one-character focused RPG.

o_O

Or else they come up with ridiculous luck/plot twist like in mass effect, to explain why a random idiot like shephard can stop beings that could have anihilated the universe in the very first seconds of the game.

Seriously... go and fing read some actual science fiction. Not shit games made by imbeciles or sci-fi.

 

[GueulEclator]

bullshit - unsubstantiated lie - serious misundertsanding of everything.

my dear hiver friend, It's a bit easy to simply contradict what I said for the sake of doing it. Especially since you don't come up with any defense remotely complex/insightful of the sci-fi setting. Your vocabular seems limited to ''bullshit'', ''jesus fucking christ'' and ''lies'' . You should al least try to understand that there is some thought behind what I wrote. The thing is, that sci-fi will always end up being what I described, be it shitty setting like mass effect, or good ones like Deus-Ex. Technology DOES make human obsolete, especially the Cyber one, who easily emulate, if not outmatch the human brain, and create a gazillion of uber-machine in a wink.
Unlike Magic, who's ''magic'' is the fact that it's random, impenetrable and mysterious at it's root. There is a reason while, even thought technology has more possibilities, magic remained as popular.
Because of it's limitless potential, mathematically speaking, technology ends up overcoming everything, and replacing everything, completely overwhelming the human/individual. Also, The more technology advance, the less single individuals can shape up history by themselves and everything becomes about collective dynamics more than anything.
I may sound off topic, but it was to prove my point : technology ultimately goes far beyond the limit of human capacity.

The worst is technology that mess with the brain. I'm sure we will see a shit ton of it (telepathy...). What people don't realize is that, in reality, if these existed, humanity wouldn't even last 1 hour, as the one in control of such a thing would literally reshape everyone's thoughts in an instant. That's why sci-fi setting have to rely solely on plot device to cover the illogical fallacy of working societies in possetion of such technologies.
If one being/group/community had access to 1/10, the whole dynamics of life would be completely different, and far beyond the comprehension of even the best philosophers/sociologist . So I never expected fat nerds to come up with any sci-fi setting that makes a iota of sense. Once technology reach trans-human level, it becomes, well... trans-human and beyond any grasp.

Here in our setting, we are 1 billion year in the future. 1 Billion years of technology, even scattered, is still something to behold. All this stuff is basically unreachable for a tiny single bunch of human cells.

I don't see our character having any influence in this unvierse, since at the very moment the game begin, he could be anihilated/reformed in incalculable ways by the un-avoidable omniscient beings using 1 billion year level technology.

PS : that being said, a flame war wouldn't be wise, and I'm sure you'll agree a rational debate would be more interesting.

 

[Kirtai]

One possible excuse I've seen used could be is if the transapients lived in time accelerated virtual realities (after all, living in physical is so slow) and that the external transhuman technologies are trinkets pulled from what's left of their extinct wreckage.

But yes, I'd expect that for a normal human in a post-human technological environment there'd only be two questions

1. How thoroughly screwed are you?
2. Would you even recognise it?

 

[GueulEclator]

One possible excuse I've seen used could be is if the transapients lived in time accelerated virtual realities (after all, living in physical is so slow) and that the external transhuman technologies are trinkets pulled from what's left of their extinct wreckage.

But yes, I'd expect that for a normal human in a post-human technological environment there'd only be two questions

1. How thoroughly screwed are you?
2. Would you even recognise it?

The last part sums up what I wrote. In the age of virtual reality, and telepaty, you can say your already screwed. That plus the tons of other technology that can screw you before you are born if under the hands of anything with an intention.
The problem with the wreckage is that even thought they are wreckage, they are still there, and enough to fuck up everything, reality itself included. When reality itself is beyond you and is constantly altered, how the hell do you expect to do anything.
Also there is the question of who came up with all that stuff, and how they didn't screwed themsevles before reaching that level. And also why after always succeding in surviving their own tans-human technology, everything fucks up. If it was so easy to break, it would have broke from the very beginning.

But mostly is that once it's post-human, as you said, you can't guaranty your not screwed from the very begining. And in fact, you should be, especially since as they said, there seems to be transcendent being who surely have some clues as to have to use that reality altering technology.

 

[hiver]

Im not your friend.

I did not just simply contradict what you said. For many of these inanities you splurged there doesnt need to be any kind of special detailed counter explanation.
Saying they are stupid quite suffices. As they obviously are.
You apparently think... for god knows what incredible reason, that science fiction is limited to one particular idea, one particular outcome - and that is just plain wrong to anyone who has ever read any better science fiction book or a story.
The fact that you mentioned ass effect and deusX as some kind of staples only makes you look retarded.

Also, sci-fi is a shortcut for a form of science fiction of the lowest quality. Inane space operas and other cheap, shallow futuristic fantasy stories and settings of the lowest imaginable order.
Stuff that fox tv and biowhore would push around.
There is no limitless potential of technology. Technology is ruled by the same laws as everything else in the universe. Energy, resources and people capable of inventing, designing and building it. Just for starters.

For some insane reason, in your mind the fact that there is a "technology" automatically means it evolved into something godlike, limitless capable of... "controlling whole galaxies"?
Is that because you were exposed to ass effect too much as a kid?

Dont you think your should kind of prove these ridiculous empty brain statements upon which all of your retarded assumption lies?

The worst is technology that mess with the brain. I'm sure we will see a shit ton of it (telepathy...).

You are sure? You dont say... ?

What people don't realize is that, in reality,

First... are we going to play reality?
Or a science fiction - post apocalypse - fantasy game?

Secondly... why the fuck would anyone care what someone as inane as you think about reality? Do you fucking really think that even if there is telepathy - it automatically means it is limitless?
Do you think that is reality?

Can you be so bloody stupid?

Because of it's limitless potential, mathematically speaking, technology ends up overcoming everything, and replacing everything, completely overwhelming the human/individual.

Is there any sort of proof of this in actual reality or are you just imagining things out of your ass? Or out of some stupid, inane, retarded ass effect?

Here in our setting, we are 1 billion year in the future. 1 Billion years of technology, even scattered, is still something to behold. All this stuff is basically unreachable for a tiny single bunch of human cells.

You are extremely stupid, narrow minded and limited, moron.

and I'm sure you'll agree a rational debate would be more interesting.

With who? You?

 

[GueulEclator]

And you are an idiot that compensate his lack of reasonable demonstration with insults.
I proposed you a civil debate but I wasn't expecting you to reveal your faggot nature so quickly. At no point in your post I saw a rational deconstruction of all the points are made, especially since some of them are borderline common sense

''there is no such thing as limitless technology''. Thank god nobody believes that, not even the ones that write science fiction, even this one. I find technology that allows 4th dimension travel, FTL propulsion engine, full virtual reality, infinite power source to be obvious examples of limitless technology. And guess what? these are all found in any science fiction, especially this setting.
I find it difficult to believe that fallacy spewer like you are still spreading their ignorance here after 4K post.

Simpleton like you probably find it difficult to understand concept such as the limits of the suspension of disbelief, the credibility of a plot and the importance of the authenticity of a setting.
All those concept are far beyond your own basic comprehension.
These are trans- hiver concepts.

 

[hiver]

You mean lack of any demonstration or proof for your inane stupid assumptions that you paddle around as if they are absolutes,
while being just enough smart to try to use simple reverse psychology and accuse others of a thing you do from the start?
You mean you cannot understand simple sentences or admit they are there?

Fuck you and your "civil debate".

And your little shitty flaming.


Either prove any of those insanely stupid mental shitstained statements-assumptions with something, or shut the fuck up!
Or get called a presumptuous godamn moron for a reason.


Start with how the fuck do you know the details of the setting not even his creator knows, you dumbfucking shit.
And then go over the whole list pointed out above.

 

[GueulEclator]

You mean lack of any demonstration or proof for your inane stupid assumptions that you paddle around as if they are absolutes,

Sorry, you are the one speaking in absolute here. Calling something retarded does not constitute a proof. If you don't provide a demonstration, then one must believe everything you say is based on ridiculous assumptions.
I don't see why you wrote such relatively big post when you could simply write down ''I disagree with you'' and shut up.

I just proved those ''insanely stupid... assumptions''. Now you provide counter proofs.

Until now you are the one who is making assumptions.

And about the details, it seems you aren't exactly up to date, as they have revealed enough information to reasonably assume everything I wrote down. Altered reality, billion year technology and such are stuff that was revealed by the author of the setting (who was created before this planescape announcement, in case you are to stupid to read). ''and clouds of out-of-control nanobots'' Does ring a bell to me, the bell of nano technology (obviously?) and advanced numeric science. ''Genetically altered monstrosities'' sounds awfully like genome technology, which in case you didn't knew, was about completely reshaping living beings, including their brain and thought processing, once pushed to a certain extend (which is fairly easy in a billion year). And ultra-advanced genome technology, mixed with nanotechnology and reality altering devices does open the doors to you being screwed by another multi dimensional entity, from the very begining of the story. And by screwed, I mean that you don't even have a will of your own and is the equivalent of an informatics program.

PS : all this concentration of spewed insults and bad mood... Are you having your period?

 

[hiver]

No, i just hate morons who make empty statements and then try to worm out of proving any of those with anything else than their own stupidity, shallowness and cheapness.
Thats what being a long time on the codex does to anyone sane.
It also apparently gives me a fucking radar for dumbfucks such as yourself - which you just keep proving.

What you failed to notice, in that torrent of drivel is - this is a post apocalyptic fucking setting. Leaning to be more of a fantastical setting hiding behind old Arthur Clarke saying that "any advanced enough technology is indistinguishable from magic" - then anything resembling high technological one like you addled limited asshole imagines.
It doesnt matter how far in the future this is happening. A billion, a thousand, a 22,563 years.

The whole setting of Dune was happening even more billions of years in the future and it didnt have any omniscient AI gods nor technology removing importance of individuals. Quite the contrary.
And thats just one example of hundreds and hundreds of fucking far futuristic settings where technology isnt developed like you fucking believe it will be.

The point is that the setting consist of anything the writer decides to put in it.

There can be "genetical mutants" but that doesnt mean that genome technology is readily available to anyone - it may be a leftover from some past era that is out of control on a very limited piece of land - for example - asshole.
Nor does merely having nanobots out of control mean it has to be something global or anything without any limit since MOTHERFUCKING NANOBOTS ARE STILL LIMITED BY BASIC LAWS OF UNIVERSE MASS AND ENERGY MOTHERFUCKING CONSERVATION - if nothing else.
And that ELSE can be anything the writer wants. Like for MOTHEREFUCKING EXAMPLE these nanobots being run by some crazy "software" that behaves in totally different manner than you wold think in your blatant limitations. Maybe there is several strains of these nanobots warring with each other? Maybe some of those entities can control some of them? Maybe people can control some of them in some limited manner and use them to construct various tools or items or weapons or to achieve various capabilities?

Like shooting LIGHTBOLTS out of their ARSES!

Same goes for the rest of it.

I just proved those ''insanely stupid... assumptions''. Now you provide counter proofs.

How? Where? Are you completely insane? What do you think that just saying "i proved it" constitutes a proof?
I dont need to prove a godamn thing because i didnt come here claiming i know exactly what details this setting contains and how it will all play out!

You did - now prove it all!

Prove why and how all these entities, nanobots, genetically engineering, monstrosities and everything else will all together fall on my character right out of the blue sky and then
nano-genetically-telepathically-interdimensionally completely and utterly destroy-change-zombify-relocate my ass the second i press fucking PLAY.

Of course this is purely rhetorical question since you cannot prove anything so retarded, stupid and nonsensical that you just pulled out of your ignorant asshole.