Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Zorba the Hutt]

From what I've seen of Adam's blog, my guess is he plays a lot of Depression Quest

 

[DeepOcean]

Comparable to PTSD?.

Yes.

 

[commie]

lol

You left out the bit where I call Konjad a fucking cunt.

EDIT: (for Kony) What? If you need a trainer cause the 10 OPTIONAL combats in TToN are 'teh hard' for you then you must be a cunt! Don't pick the combat option if you don't have the build for it. Fuck me...

 

[Jarpie]

There is the fairly scary possibility that they actually think what they did is good. Which comes back to what Excidium said: Developers don't play RPGs... or even too many games, really. Otherwise I can't imagine how some things keep showing up in games even though they're universally hated.
So, ignorance is a very possible reason because when you're ignorant about what you're doing you just do it by a checklist.

Didn't Adam Heine blog about playing all the new RPGs to prepare for Torment?

I recall there were some suckers here who considered that a good thing, as if we were going to get unsullied 1999 again.

They also blogged about playing PS:T to death, just to be sure they'd get it right.

It's obvious that a lot of people who like/claim to like PS:T completely don't get it. I've sometimes suspected that they haven't maybe even played it and are just saying they like it because it's the thing to like. Upon further reflection though I think that just might not be true; they have played it, they did like it, and still managed to miss the entire point of the exercise.

That part I don't understand.

Most people wouldn't recognize great or even good writing even to savew their lives, I've seen so fucking many people to praise both PST and Fallout 3, 4 or Skyrim. Anyone who praises bethesda's writing is a fucking brainless moron. Most people also have fucking horrible taste, and even if they praise PST always take it with shitload of salt.

 

[Roguey]

From what I've seen of Adam's blog, my guess is he plays a lot of Depression Quest

Alas we'll never know http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198115716026

However through some reverse engineeeeeering I have figured out that he's played Sorcery! parts 1 and 2, Party Hard, and Captain Forever Remix.

 

[commie]

There's no end of stuff that call's bullshit on the whole concept of a billion years into the future.

As soon as I heard the game was set a billion years into the future I knew it was going to be horseshit. Even sci-fi doesn't bother going that far for its fantasy because once you go that far its inconceivable what humanity would be like.

And inconceivable means... inconceivable.

The idea that everyone is the same is probably more correct than not, but not from racial melding, but from the fact that humanity would likely gradually transform from being carbon/water based to something more ephemeral:

And the only reason that writer ^ put them in human shape is so that the viewer has something they can conceive. The reality of 1 billion years, assuming we even got that far, would likely be so removed from anything we currently are able to conceive that 'we' wouldn't even be 'us' anymore.

And aside from the nitpicking of what 1 billion years might be like, the mere fact that someone has even decided to promote the idea that their vision is 1 billion years in the future inherently proves that the person creating that vision is going to provide something really shit, because they don't understand the first thing about the fundamental concept of creating relatable/logical fantasy.

Right off the bat, on day one of development, the first point of the start of the retardation should have been called out, someone should have said "One billion years? Don't talk bollocks".

Eh..not really...there's a lot of non-human types in the game, and what's to say that everything has to keep mutating and evolving? Why wouldn't there be humans in a billion years objectively speaking? That's a bit of a nonsense argument as fantasy/sci-fi often does this. Maybe they had a technology that regulated climate etc in such a way that made evolution or mutation redundant?

I do however find the 'billion years into the future' thing a bit of a distraction precisely cause it creates this kind of autist discourse. Should have left it at 100,000 years as that would give enough time for 9 civs to come and go and still be short enough timeframe to not cause doubt about humanity's ability to survive.

 

[ga♥]

If I had read that, it disappeared from my memory. I found it http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-at-pax-prime-2015.101481/page-3#post-4117234

He seems so reasonable and spot-on... wtf happened?

 

[FeelTheRads]

If everyone would have a clue about about what the setting says about humans before talking it would be much better. There were not 9 civilizations of humans nor humans evolving and mutating for a billion years. The humans that exist currently in Numenera have appeared relatively recently essentially by "magic" probably just so Monte Cook can do his "diversity is when everyone is brown" utopia.

 

[Jarpie]

If everyone would have a clue about about what the setting says about humans before talking it would be much better. There were not 9 civilizations of humans nor humans evolving and mutating for a billion years. The humans that exist currently in Numenera have appeared relatively recently essentially by "magic" probably just so Monte Cook can do his "diversity is when everyone is brown" utopia.

The 9 civilizations would make much more sense if it'd be set something like 10,000 years in the future, even cursory clance in the history shows that around europe and mesopotamia there's already been lot more during known history.

 

[Prime Junta]

Numenera is worldbuilding for people who don't like worldbuilding, and just want a big ol' sandbox where they can put whatever the hell they like. The beellion years thing with all that it implies is just a means to an end; a convenient excuse to provide that.

It's pretty clear that this is the focus for Monte Cook Games. Their next one, The Strange, takes this a step further. In it, the idea is that secondary worlds called Recursions more or less spontaneously appear, and players can shift in and out of them, becoming a version of themselves fitting each Recursion. Meaning, absolutely anything goes, even more so than in Numenera. The recursions described in the base materials includes boringworld (this), one that happened when something like World of Warcraft became a recursion, and one really old vaguely Cthulhoid sci-fi-horror one.

I can see how you could have fun with that. It's also not at all what I want from worldbuilding.

 

[ga♥]

around europe and mesopotamia there's already been lot more during known history.

I am pretty sure you mean South Europe and not the savages in the rest of the continent with their mud huts, cannibalism and human sacrifices.

 

[FeelTheRads]

If everyone would have a clue about about what the setting says about humans before talking it would be much better. There were not 9 civilizations of humans nor humans evolving and mutating for a billion years. The humans that exist currently in Numenera have appeared relatively recently essentially by "magic" probably just so Monte Cook can do his "diversity is when everyone is brown" utopia.

The 9 civilizations would make much more sense if it'd be set something like 10,000 years in the future, even cursory clance in the history shows that around europe and mesopotamia there's already been lot more during known history.

Being that some of those were non-human they can be anything. And the corebook makes it clear that it shouldn't be known what they were. The past is intended to serve as the fuel for the "magic" and the mystery. That's it. Whether you like that or not it's something else, but it's pretty pointless to analyze it when it's stated fairly clearly that it was intentionally left as barebones as possible.

 

[Sigourn]

I played less than 5 minutes of Tyranny and it is already better than Numenera. Cohesive art style, down to the very character models, nice looking interface, beautiful presentation down to the very CYOA Conquest section with the unseen person moving the pieces around.

Take some notes, inXile. That's how you make a compelling game.

 

[Jarpie]

If everyone would have a clue about about what the setting says about humans before talking it would be much better. There were not 9 civilizations of humans nor humans evolving and mutating for a billion years. The humans that exist currently in Numenera have appeared relatively recently essentially by "magic" probably just so Monte Cook can do his "diversity is when everyone is brown" utopia.

The 9 civilizations would make much more sense if it'd be set something like 10,000 years in the future, even cursory clance in the history shows that around europe and mesopotamia there's already been lot more during known history.

Being that some of those were non-human they can be anything. And the corebook makes it clear that it shouldn't be known what they were. The past is intended to serve as the fuel for the "magic" and the mystery. That's it. Whether you like that or not it's something else, but it's pretty pointless to analyze it when it's stated fairly clearly that it was intentionally left as barebones as possible.

Yeah, although it's huge missed opportunity, exploring and finding about old civilizations would give great sense of mystery.

 

[ga♥]

Yeah, although it's huge missed opportunity, exploring and finding about old civilizations would give great sense of mystery.

I have no exp with the pnp but I thought this is exactly ... what you do in the pnp?

You already have "fun" exploring the stuffs of previous worlds in TTON

 

[FeelTheRads]

Hey, I agree with that. Would have been more interesting to me than "this strange device sings the blues when the moon is full only because lololooool" but it is what it is.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah, although it's huge missed opportunity, exploring and finding about old civilizations would give great sense of mystery.

I have no contact to the pnp but I thought this is exactly ... what you do in the pnp?

You explore them yes.

Finding out about them is entirely up to the GM. The official materials have zip to say about that part.

 

[FeelTheRads]

In fact if I remember correctly the GM is encouraged to NOT explain them.

 

[ga♥]

Yeah, although it's huge missed opportunity, exploring and finding about old civilizations would give great sense of mystery.

I have no contact to the pnp but I thought this is exactly ... what you do in the pnp?

You explore them yes.

Finding out about them is entirely up to the GM. The official materials have zip to say about that part.

And that's clearly intended... and tbqh it looks nice to me having that kind of "freedom".

 

[Lacrymas]

Those are mysteries for mystery's sake though, they aren't in context. DRRMMMFSDDDDDDRRKAAAAAAAAAAAARRTTEEERMAAAAAPRRRRRRRAAAAAAALEEEEEMTTTAAAA. See, this is a mysterious thing, but it's not interesting because it's not connected to anything, you aren't even sure if the writer himself didn't just randomly press keys on his keyboard. This is Numenera in a nutshell, you aren't sure if the writer didn't just put random words together. A fountain of worms, a moon made of cheese, the soil is metal shards, a chair made of cats, a table with a live octopus on it, an orphanage for weirdos.

 

[FeelTheRads]

DRRMMMFSDDDDDDRRKAAAAAAAAAAAARRTTEEERMAAAAAPRRRRRRRAAAAAAALEEEEEMTTTAAAA. See, this is a mysterious thing

What tier is it?

 

[Hobo Elf]

There's no end of stuff that call's bullshit on the whole concept of a billion years into the future.

As soon as I heard the game was set a billion years into the future I knew it was going to be horseshit. Even sci-fi doesn't bother going that far for its fantasy because once you go that far its inconceivable what humanity would be like.

And inconceivable means... inconceivable.

The idea that everyone is the same is probably more correct than not, but not from racial melding, but from the fact that humanity would likely gradually transform from being carbon/water based to something more ephemeral:


And the only reason that writer ^ put them in human shape is so that the viewer has something they can conceive. The reality of 1 billion years, assuming we even got that far, would likely be so removed from anything we currently are able to conceive that 'we' wouldn't even be 'us' anymore.

And aside from the nitpicking of what 1 billion years might be like, the mere fact that someone has even decided to promote the idea that their vision is 1 billion years in the future inherently proves that the person creating that vision is going to provide something really shit, because they don't understand the first thing about the fundamental concept of creating relatable/logical fantasy.

Right off the bat, on day one of development, the first point of the start of the retardation should have been called out, someone should have said "One billion years? Don't talk bollocks".

Eh..not really...there's a lot of non-human types in the game, and what's to say that everything has to keep mutating and evolving? Why wouldn't there be humans in a billion years objectively speaking? That's a bit of a nonsense argument as fantasy/sci-fi often does this. Maybe they had a technology that regulated climate etc in such a way that made evolution or mutation redundant?

I do however find the 'billion years into the future' thing a bit of a distraction precisely cause it creates this kind of autist discourse. Should have left it at 100,000 years as that would give enough time for 9 civs to come and go and still be short enough timeframe to not cause doubt about humanity's ability to survive.

The Numenera world is 1 gorillion years in the future. Humans, however, are not. Humans magically reappeared some hundreds (or thousands, can't remember exactly when) years ago. It's a perfectly acceptable explanation for why humans still look like humans. It does not, however, explain why all people have to be mixed. I can digest the mystery of humans reappearing out of thin air, but the arbitrariness of it being impossible to make people of different skin hue reappear makes it transparent that it's just pandering to the SJW.

 

[ga♥]

Prime Junta review is pretty spot on; but I feel you have been unfair to Mark Morgan.

What made good the OST of PST was that it melted perfectly with the companions and the story (let's not forget every companion or pivotal NPC had his own theme, that also played when you talked with them).

What would you think about PST OST without the story hearing it for the first time? Pretty much what you think of it with TTON.

[...]Mark Morgan, the composer for the original Planescape: Torment, wrote fifty tracks for the game, but somehow none of them manage to be the least bit memorable. They become background ambience or a generic combat soundtrack, not the emotional high points they are in Planescape: Torment or Fallout.[...]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=10572

 

[Lacrymas]

That's what developers want though, ambient sounds. They get scared if they hear anything not generic, I've personally been rejected because I didn't sound generic fantasy-ish enough. And it was for the main theme. They want long sustained notes for the overall tracks and some drums here and there for the battle tracks.

 

[Prime Junta]

In fact if I remember correctly the GM is encouraged to NOT explain them.

Yeah, no, maybe. All they have firmly stated is that they're not going to explain them. The closest they come to this is in the GM section, "Realizing the Ninth World." From pages 354-355:

Describe, Don't Define

Because mystery is so important to weird, the Ninth World is never about strict definitions or concrete quantifications. "Describe, don't define" might be the number one rule. It not only leaves room for further development later, but it also keeps things mysterious and weird, and that's the most important characteristic of the setting.

Actually, perhaps the rule should be, "Describe rather than define, and if you msut define, never quantify." In other words, when talking about abhumans, I might describe them as "misshapen, brutish humanoids that live outside human society." However, you might have to distinguish (define) them from mutants at some point during a game, because in the Ninth World "mutant" means something different (some abhumans might be mutants, but not all mutants are abhumans ... but I digress). I would never say, "There are six types of abhumans, and they are..."

That kind of quantification is the death of mystery.
​

Make of it what you will.

(What, me? I think those are good general rules in communicating a setting to players. It doesn't mean you haven't figured it out for yourself though. And while I understand the reasoning, this is the main reason Numenera leaves me cold while I loved Planescape to death. I do want to know, so I can riff on it and fill in the gaps.)