Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this?
-
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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread
- Thread starter Florian Gheorghe
- Start date
Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this?
Florian Gheorghe
Cipher
Another review written by a friend (it's really big) :
https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17617
https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17617
"Hello,
This review is intended to be read by anyone that:
1. is an inXile employee that wants to make a better videogame in the future, especially Brian or Kevin
2. fanboys of the original Planescape: Torment
3. people that like to read walls of text.
If you are not part of the above sum of people, it might be very hard for you to go through, you have been warned.
First about me: I've played most of the D&D and CRPG names out there starting from the worst which is ToEE to the best, which we all know what is, P:T. I am also a big fanboy of P:T and the Black Isle games in general.
I also would like to state the fact that while I've seen scores on reviews, I have not read any other than this one, but only to assess the view of a backer to this game. My opinion(s) are my own and unaltered by sites, other people or any other media in general.
Now about you: While my thoughts will be negative on most areas of the game, my critique is (I like to believe) objective. If, dear reader, you are a person unable to take negative criticism, or otherwise unable to understand people have their own opinion, you can feel free to be on your merry way.
That being said, let's begin.
1. Graphics and options:
Let's get this straight right out of the gate and right of the bat: I don't consider Torment: Tides of Numenera (and from now on I will be refering to it by just Numenera, because simply seeing the Torment word grafted onto it makes my stomach churl) a C as in COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME.
In my opinion Numenera is an RPG port from a platform - your call to choose which: PS or Xbone.
Why? Because the graphic options and options in general remind me of the Dark Souls 1 port. Little to nothing. Not even a keyboard zoom function. But anyway... I'm sure no one here is concerned about the graphics of the game, right? We're all concerned about other things, like story and so on, but I still have a question here:
What exactly is burning 8 GB of RAM and a boatload of resources for an isometric RPG?
Honest question. I seriously await a reply for that one. Planescape: Torment used just 64, just fyi.
Anyway... let's move on to 2. Character creation
Before I debate this topic here I would like to discuss something about the original, Planescape: Torment, and how this is the first clue that the creators of this game either forgot or never knew why P:T was so good, and that is the fact that P:T obliterated a lot of D&D and RPG standards.
For those that do not know, early D&D had 3 classes: warrior, rogue and cleric (magic user), which P:T made a mockery out of and said "I don't care about classes and norms, I care about a well-told story". That is why you can switch between them at any moment.
A second thing that seems that the creators of this game seem to have forgot, and as well as many of my peers too, is that P:T emphasized the idea that it doesn't matter who you are, you can be anything you want, and evolve in any way you want. Planescape: Torment is partially the reason why later D&D introduced the fact that you can improve a character via stats. In any way you want!
That is out of the box thinking. That is choice. Real choice.
So back to character creation: you have 3 classes to chose from.
Okay. (the colour for this is blue because of sadness. Get it?)
But we shouldn't be too anal about these things, right? I mean, it's a new setting, a new way of looking at things, let's roll with it. Is the character creation good?
At first, yes. It's great. Scenarios. Thought process. Results that mirror your way of thinking/solving a problem. Everything is looking good. Right?
Wrong. There are errors in logic even here.
Hey Kevin (Saunders) did you know that every 2 points in stats contribute to 5% either physical evasion or esoteric willpower, depending?
You did?!?
So then why do we have any pool modifying options AFTER the option to even out the points to our pool?
Logic -> window. The process involved? Throwing.
Now let's move on to point number 3. Story set-up and themes
The original P:T had a theme incorporated in the game from the first 5 minutes of playtime. And is the rule of three. You may not have noticed it, but your brain did.
The triangle puzzle. Rule of 3.
Number of echoes of Ravel. 3.
Number of options for last companion. 3.
3 Black-Barbed Charms.
3 Heart Charms.
3 reflections at the end.
3 ways to be lawful.
3 ways to be chaotic.
3 ways to be neutral.
3 options offered by Mebbeth.
3 classes you could be.
3 quests you needed to complete for Mebbeth to train you in the Art.
*sigh* Anyway... you get the point. They were all set-up by the triangle puzzle.
So what is the theme to Numenera?
After about 100 hours of gameplay I'm still struggling with this one.
Is it exploration? But that's not a theme, it's an action.
Is it solving problems through dialogue? But that's not a theme, that's an option.
I think the theme is that if you really struggle hard, and pull nostalgia strings you can get money to make a decent console port that people will buy.
Who should I blame on this one? Brian? Kevin? Which one of you is raising hands for this turd on the middle of the road?
Anyway... let's not be too hard here because this section contains one of the two hints of brilliance that somewhat reminded me of P:T. It was like a sniff. A distant aroma. A scent long forgotten. And here it is:
There is one oddity in the game called Fatherteller (Kina's cave). It's description says that the item shows you the face of your father, but in your case it shows just your face.
That's brilliant!
Why? Because, spoilers, (who cares?) as the Last Castoff you bear the last face your father wore, obviously, but it DOES NOT SHOW A NEW ONE And THAT could've been an amazing theme and set-up for the rest of the game.
But no. It's thrown in into an oddity, at one of the hard gates of the game, like some left-over thought.
You know... looking back, the triangle puzzle in P:T looks and is so brilliant, I seriously doubt anyone in this team of developers had anything to do with it.
Can you guys call director Chris Avellone for him to come back?
CHRIS? CHRIS? HELLO? ARE YOU BUSY? Can you come dig us out of this cesspool of poop we are in? HELLO? PLEASE?
*sigh*
Let's move on shall we? (I know some of you wish this were already over, and I seriously appreciate and respect anyone still reading at this point)
4. Game Mechanics
When it comes to game mechanics we have to address the main appeal of this genre of videogames. It is interacting with the world around you through highly flexible text.
Is Numenera good in regards to that?
Yes
It is actually one of the few steps forward that the game makes, where skill checks and the interaction of the world around is done organically and it is very immersive. I would like to congratulate any of the team members involved into making this amazing progress here. It is actually very fun to interact with the world around you, and unlike P:T not really being afraid of faliure.
It really is true. Sometimes faliure can be just as rewarding as success. The "must save" reflex gamers have is now put to test, and it's great.
Whoever made this work like this, I salute you.
However there is a flipside to this - the combat. *sigh*
Slow. Enemy + ally turns can take for ever. Allies can sometimes make the most baffling AI targeting choices (Malaise fight, Fist Castoff/Final Sorrow fight) resulting in unnecessary damage taken and complications. My first run I had ToEE flashbacks.
Hey guys...? Kevin? Did you play Temple of Elemental Evil? Did you like it?
If the answer is "yes", go get a head scan, brother.
Let's wade forward.
Character progression. It's brilliant. You feel rewarded apropriately for quests taken, events happening. Conversations/meres explored. Great.
Map design. Brilliant. Everything makes sense. Light sources. Where would people drink water from. Where would they be sleeping. Flawless.
UI. Horrible:
- another difference that you didn't notice, but your brain sure did: the lack of an attack button. Do you remember the choice to be a phychopath? To kill everyone in sight? Not there anymore. You can only battle in specific and contained scenarios.
We should call this Briancare. Thanks Brian for taking care of us.
- lack of party management: I can't move my party members around. I always have to recruit Rhin last, because I can't have a small child in front, so... logic -> window.
- lack of animated portraits. A game 20 years ago had animation in character portraits, but not one made in 2017. Okay.
-------- the horrible lack of narrative reason for the journal. Yet another reason why I think Kevin and/or Brian, and/or this whole team doesn't know why "I updated my journal" works. It's because Rob Paulsen tells us that maybe we should write stuff down in case we forget again.
Is there any such line in this game?
Who cares? Give us your money.
- The keybind for character opens up Last Castoff character screen regardless of whom you have selected. Like... this game was made for a console, or something...
- And now one of my favourite topics: FIELD OF VISION. A great source of comedy in this game is the cypher you're being given at 1 point "to see" the entire map. (sticha questline)
Why?
Our characters have field of vision that sees through walls. It's like they're flying above obstacles. Or it's like this game was programmed by 1st year students.
- lack of detailed portraits. Remember how nice it was to have pictures of your party members posing in their "hero shots"? Remember how it made you more immersed, stimulated your imagination and increased the overall flavour of the game?
Yeah? Well too bad. They're gone. $50 please.
- popping up inventory/ char screen/ journal DOES NOT pause the game. I don't know... it's like I'm forced to explain videogame elements to highschool students at this point.
- no snap-zoom from map to gameplay area on double click. Because this game is a console port. Right. Sorry. I forgot.
- no save marker/bar/notification on screen for autosaves. At this point even highschool students are baffled. Even Dark Souls 1, known as the worst console port of one of the best videogames ever made, HAD a bonfire light up on screen when it made a save.
- 0 control over summoned units. Balefire, Maw or any other. At this point, I feel like beating a dead horse pointing this out.
- fragmenting units of movement, but not fragmenting movement itself. You are limited to 2 moves only. If you need to go around an obstacle - tough luck. This makes Callistege, Matkina and a jack protagonist borderline OP because of their teleportation abilities. This is most obvious a problem during the Miel Avest crisis.
Ambience relative to story
This part is actually pretty good. And for one I have to give props to the artists that made that happen through nice looking loading screens and to Mark Morgan's music.
I would like to point out that Miel Avest feels like it should feel, a safe haven, a resting point. But more on music and sound later. I have a few gripes there too. But as far as this goes, the experience was/is immersive.
Item Progression: It's a joke.
- nanos don't get a proper weapon until act 3. Why? Who knows.
- heavy weapons dependant on speed for glaives that focus on speed, or jacks - are an afterthought that we discover in act 4.
- bizzare choice letting the Bloom Armour be affected by the healing skill, making it by far the most over-powered item in the game -> the Bradishes a Silver Tongue focus becoming obsolete. Nanos will take the skill that will let them wear the armour with no penalties. Same with Jacks. Glaives can wear it automatically.
- bizzare choice giving Aligern "Medium Weapons", but giving none in the game that would scale with INT. You wanted us to give him edges in STR? Even more bizzare.
Action and reaction with the enviroment
This is the most amazing part of the game, in my opinion. The game, as in characters and quests, does react to your choices, represented by the Tides. Quests can also be influenced by time as well. It is a very well thought game, structurally speaking. The quest trees and the dialogue that accompany them are a showmanship of brilliance, skill, patience and overall desire to surpass Planescape: Torment.
Colin... ? Is this your work? Are the writers to blame for this part? If yes, then congratulations. It's one of the few things dragging this game forward. My respect to you.
PC relations with protagonist
While it's nice to look at the past with nostalgia rosey-eyed glasses, P:T didn't have that nailed down much either. I had expected a bit of a progress though. Oh well... I guess that's fine.
5. ("oh god he made just 5 points so far, I want to die" - is that what you thought? Yeah, I feel the same way) Characters
First off I would just like to say that is perhaps beyond me to criticise any work that Colin McComb wrote down. The writing itself in the game is beyond solid. I had immense pleasure of reading descriptions, dialogue and everything in between. It was the first time in a long time I actually hard the pleasure of seeing the word susurrus in a videogame, as well as me being forced to get a dictionary out because of a new word.
As such my critique of the characters, and later, of the script will be very short, and highly subjective. I imagine that any replies to this post that I will get as counters will be because of this part.
a) Aligern
- cardboard filler character. Nothing he was was relatable.
b) Callistege
- I would find her a long more interesting If I knew more about her background. Her backstory is really really thin. I mean, the pursuit of knowledge is great, but... shallow without a backstory.
c) Erritis
- tremendous amounts of fun, (real fun, the memorable kind
) encompassed into a tragic tale. Great character. Great story.
d) Matkina
- the thief with the heart of gold. She reminds us why Annah-of-the-Shadows is memorable. My second favourite character. Would bring along every playthrough.
e) Tybir
- who's he again? I forgot...
f) Rhin
- perhaps the best character in the game, and obviously my favourite. The most relatable. The most fun to have. The most memorable. Perhaps the best arc in the game too.
"my bread and hearth are yours to use"
^__^
And now: THE SCRIPT
It would be a titanic effort to completely and accurately judge how good the script actually is in its entirety. I assume this is the reason why so many critics gave such glorious reviews to this game. It is a very complex and well written script, and I cannot and will not venture out so far as to nitpick it (as it may seem I have done so far with everything else).
I will discuss one thing that I thought was weak (and I say "weak" very very carefully here) which is the overall premise.
Planescape: Torment had to deal with many abstract ideas. Life. Death. Circle of life. Torment. Regret. Change. Love. Survival. And many more.
Torment: Tides of Numenera is a step back, by fleshing out an actual physical thing to create tension.
P:T had an unseen "villain" all the way until the very last act. T:ToN shows its villain at the end of the 2nd act (showing that the director loves his art too much).
P:T "villain" turns out to be just an entity trying to ensure its own survival. T:ToN villain turns out to be a borderline mindless guardian.
I'm really sorry Collin, you are a brilliant man with a brilliant mind, and I respect you and your work deeply (as well as all the other writers), but I'm sure you can see the difference(s). I'm very sorry I have to point them out, but it's the truth...
I also mentioned hints of brilliance earlier - the second one is here: there's an apothecary in the Bloom that refuses to treat you because of you being a Castoff. Brilliant! World building! I loved it!
Another thing... and beside the diversity of the companions, which I'm sure it was pointed out in other reviews... what happened to LOVE. This game is so damned sterile. Where's the sex? Where's the hot scene where I kiss an amazingly looking half-demon, and her skin almost bursts into flame?
What happened? Did we forget romance?
How about the gay guy? Can he get something going?
How about about the old woman that teleports around? Is she a lesbian? Can she get something going? Or maybe adult Rhin?
GIVE US SOMETHING, KEVIN! WE WANT SEX!
*sigh*
6. ("oh god is he done yet?") Sound
Mark Morgan. I mean. He's a legend. You can't go wrong with his music.
We have music for loading screens now - that's nice.
We don't have scores for each individual character as we converse with them. I'm sure that was also Kevin or Brian, because I'm absolutely positive when I say that I'm sure Mark Morgan CAN compose music for each companion.
I also found very distracting that Lani Minella was the voice of Callistege. I kept having Skyrim flashbacks.
Also... what happened to Jennifer Hale? No money to get her 1 weekend to do a small voice over for 1 character maybe? I miss Jennifer Hale... *dreamy eyes*
If you stuck and read this far, you have my appreciation and respect. In your shoes, I would've lost interest like 15 minutes ago. As thanks... here's a list of annoying things/bugs I found:
- autochtons don't change lines if you make it night time in Circus Minor
- Solaire (Dark Souls) mutant guy doesn't stop praising the sun if the sun goes out in Circus Minor
- sticha lair and CG sanctum options when you talk to sticha leader, lead ( haha obvious pun) to the same place
- door noise when entering Dendra O'Hur, although no door is to be seen
- if you fight Ris, there's no time to loot his body because the captain doesn't let you
- adult Rhin stats are an insult to perfectionists who'd want perfectly even stats for maximum efficiency
- entering to talk to the Memovira for the first time - guard dialog box is can't be seen fully (although I suspect that might be my own screen resolution)
- Efimpi is shoehorned in at the last second to make some torment related sentences, and give the general audience a sense of "oh... I remember... this game is based of a good game".
In conclusion: Torment: Tides of Numenera is a decent game on its own... but complete poop compared to the original. If it wasn't for the writing... we'd be right there with Dak'kon before the Proclamation of the Two Skies. And I can't believe many of my peers (kids that grew up in the 90's) think this is a good game.
I am sorry for the moderator that had to read all this to approve it. I hope I didn't give you a headache. And I suggest you pass this along if no one from the dev team sees it. This may seem like hate, but it's actually tough love, and it would be nice to see them get better. <3"
This review is intended to be read by anyone that:
1. is an inXile employee that wants to make a better videogame in the future, especially Brian or Kevin
2. fanboys of the original Planescape: Torment
3. people that like to read walls of text.
If you are not part of the above sum of people, it might be very hard for you to go through, you have been warned.
First about me: I've played most of the D&D and CRPG names out there starting from the worst which is ToEE to the best, which we all know what is, P:T. I am also a big fanboy of P:T and the Black Isle games in general.
I also would like to state the fact that while I've seen scores on reviews, I have not read any other than this one, but only to assess the view of a backer to this game. My opinion(s) are my own and unaltered by sites, other people or any other media in general.
Now about you: While my thoughts will be negative on most areas of the game, my critique is (I like to believe) objective. If, dear reader, you are a person unable to take negative criticism, or otherwise unable to understand people have their own opinion, you can feel free to be on your merry way.
That being said, let's begin.
1. Graphics and options:
Let's get this straight right out of the gate and right of the bat: I don't consider Torment: Tides of Numenera (and from now on I will be refering to it by just Numenera, because simply seeing the Torment word grafted onto it makes my stomach churl) a C as in COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME.
In my opinion Numenera is an RPG port from a platform - your call to choose which: PS or Xbone.
Why? Because the graphic options and options in general remind me of the Dark Souls 1 port. Little to nothing. Not even a keyboard zoom function. But anyway... I'm sure no one here is concerned about the graphics of the game, right? We're all concerned about other things, like story and so on, but I still have a question here:
What exactly is burning 8 GB of RAM and a boatload of resources for an isometric RPG?
Honest question. I seriously await a reply for that one. Planescape: Torment used just 64, just fyi.
Anyway... let's move on to 2. Character creation
Before I debate this topic here I would like to discuss something about the original, Planescape: Torment, and how this is the first clue that the creators of this game either forgot or never knew why P:T was so good, and that is the fact that P:T obliterated a lot of D&D and RPG standards.
For those that do not know, early D&D had 3 classes: warrior, rogue and cleric (magic user), which P:T made a mockery out of and said "I don't care about classes and norms, I care about a well-told story". That is why you can switch between them at any moment.
A second thing that seems that the creators of this game seem to have forgot, and as well as many of my peers too, is that P:T emphasized the idea that it doesn't matter who you are, you can be anything you want, and evolve in any way you want. Planescape: Torment is partially the reason why later D&D introduced the fact that you can improve a character via stats. In any way you want!
That is out of the box thinking. That is choice. Real choice.
So back to character creation: you have 3 classes to chose from.
Okay. (the colour for this is blue because of sadness. Get it?)
But we shouldn't be too anal about these things, right? I mean, it's a new setting, a new way of looking at things, let's roll with it. Is the character creation good?
At first, yes. It's great. Scenarios. Thought process. Results that mirror your way of thinking/solving a problem. Everything is looking good. Right?
Wrong. There are errors in logic even here.
Hey Kevin (Saunders) did you know that every 2 points in stats contribute to 5% either physical evasion or esoteric willpower, depending?
You did?!?
So then why do we have any pool modifying options AFTER the option to even out the points to our pool?
Logic -> window. The process involved? Throwing.
Now let's move on to point number 3. Story set-up and themes
The original P:T had a theme incorporated in the game from the first 5 minutes of playtime. And is the rule of three. You may not have noticed it, but your brain did.
The triangle puzzle. Rule of 3.
Number of echoes of Ravel. 3.
Number of options for last companion. 3.
3 Black-Barbed Charms.
3 Heart Charms.
3 reflections at the end.
3 ways to be lawful.
3 ways to be chaotic.
3 ways to be neutral.
3 options offered by Mebbeth.
3 classes you could be.
3 quests you needed to complete for Mebbeth to train you in the Art.
*sigh* Anyway... you get the point. They were all set-up by the triangle puzzle.
So what is the theme to Numenera?
After about 100 hours of gameplay I'm still struggling with this one.
Is it exploration? But that's not a theme, it's an action.
Is it solving problems through dialogue? But that's not a theme, that's an option.
I think the theme is that if you really struggle hard, and pull nostalgia strings you can get money to make a decent console port that people will buy.
Who should I blame on this one? Brian? Kevin? Which one of you is raising hands for this turd on the middle of the road?
Anyway... let's not be too hard here because this section contains one of the two hints of brilliance that somewhat reminded me of P:T. It was like a sniff. A distant aroma. A scent long forgotten. And here it is:
There is one oddity in the game called Fatherteller (Kina's cave). It's description says that the item shows you the face of your father, but in your case it shows just your face.
That's brilliant!
Why? Because, spoilers, (who cares?) as the Last Castoff you bear the last face your father wore, obviously, but it DOES NOT SHOW A NEW ONE And THAT could've been an amazing theme and set-up for the rest of the game.
But no. It's thrown in into an oddity, at one of the hard gates of the game, like some left-over thought.
You know... looking back, the triangle puzzle in P:T looks and is so brilliant, I seriously doubt anyone in this team of developers had anything to do with it.
Can you guys call director Chris Avellone for him to come back?
CHRIS? CHRIS? HELLO? ARE YOU BUSY? Can you come dig us out of this cesspool of poop we are in? HELLO? PLEASE?
*sigh*
Let's move on shall we? (I know some of you wish this were already over, and I seriously appreciate and respect anyone still reading at this point)
4. Game Mechanics
When it comes to game mechanics we have to address the main appeal of this genre of videogames. It is interacting with the world around you through highly flexible text.
Is Numenera good in regards to that?
Yes
It is actually one of the few steps forward that the game makes, where skill checks and the interaction of the world around is done organically and it is very immersive. I would like to congratulate any of the team members involved into making this amazing progress here. It is actually very fun to interact with the world around you, and unlike P:T not really being afraid of faliure.
It really is true. Sometimes faliure can be just as rewarding as success. The "must save" reflex gamers have is now put to test, and it's great.
Whoever made this work like this, I salute you.
However there is a flipside to this - the combat. *sigh*
Slow. Enemy + ally turns can take for ever. Allies can sometimes make the most baffling AI targeting choices (Malaise fight, Fist Castoff/Final Sorrow fight) resulting in unnecessary damage taken and complications. My first run I had ToEE flashbacks.
Hey guys...? Kevin? Did you play Temple of Elemental Evil? Did you like it?
If the answer is "yes", go get a head scan, brother.
Let's wade forward.
Character progression. It's brilliant. You feel rewarded apropriately for quests taken, events happening. Conversations/meres explored. Great.
Map design. Brilliant. Everything makes sense. Light sources. Where would people drink water from. Where would they be sleeping. Flawless.
UI. Horrible:
- another difference that you didn't notice, but your brain sure did: the lack of an attack button. Do you remember the choice to be a phychopath? To kill everyone in sight? Not there anymore. You can only battle in specific and contained scenarios.
We should call this Briancare. Thanks Brian for taking care of us.
- lack of party management: I can't move my party members around. I always have to recruit Rhin last, because I can't have a small child in front, so... logic -> window.
- lack of animated portraits. A game 20 years ago had animation in character portraits, but not one made in 2017. Okay.
-------- the horrible lack of narrative reason for the journal. Yet another reason why I think Kevin and/or Brian, and/or this whole team doesn't know why "I updated my journal" works. It's because Rob Paulsen tells us that maybe we should write stuff down in case we forget again.
Is there any such line in this game?
Who cares? Give us your money.
- The keybind for character opens up Last Castoff character screen regardless of whom you have selected. Like... this game was made for a console, or something...
- And now one of my favourite topics: FIELD OF VISION. A great source of comedy in this game is the cypher you're being given at 1 point "to see" the entire map. (sticha questline)
Why?
Our characters have field of vision that sees through walls. It's like they're flying above obstacles. Or it's like this game was programmed by 1st year students.
- lack of detailed portraits. Remember how nice it was to have pictures of your party members posing in their "hero shots"? Remember how it made you more immersed, stimulated your imagination and increased the overall flavour of the game?
Yeah? Well too bad. They're gone. $50 please.
- popping up inventory/ char screen/ journal DOES NOT pause the game. I don't know... it's like I'm forced to explain videogame elements to highschool students at this point.
- no snap-zoom from map to gameplay area on double click. Because this game is a console port. Right. Sorry. I forgot.
- no save marker/bar/notification on screen for autosaves. At this point even highschool students are baffled. Even Dark Souls 1, known as the worst console port of one of the best videogames ever made, HAD a bonfire light up on screen when it made a save.
- 0 control over summoned units. Balefire, Maw or any other. At this point, I feel like beating a dead horse pointing this out.
- fragmenting units of movement, but not fragmenting movement itself. You are limited to 2 moves only. If you need to go around an obstacle - tough luck. This makes Callistege, Matkina and a jack protagonist borderline OP because of their teleportation abilities. This is most obvious a problem during the Miel Avest crisis.
Ambience relative to story
This part is actually pretty good. And for one I have to give props to the artists that made that happen through nice looking loading screens and to Mark Morgan's music.
I would like to point out that Miel Avest feels like it should feel, a safe haven, a resting point. But more on music and sound later. I have a few gripes there too. But as far as this goes, the experience was/is immersive.
Item Progression: It's a joke.
- nanos don't get a proper weapon until act 3. Why? Who knows.
- heavy weapons dependant on speed for glaives that focus on speed, or jacks - are an afterthought that we discover in act 4.
- bizzare choice letting the Bloom Armour be affected by the healing skill, making it by far the most over-powered item in the game -> the Bradishes a Silver Tongue focus becoming obsolete. Nanos will take the skill that will let them wear the armour with no penalties. Same with Jacks. Glaives can wear it automatically.
- bizzare choice giving Aligern "Medium Weapons", but giving none in the game that would scale with INT. You wanted us to give him edges in STR? Even more bizzare.
Action and reaction with the enviroment
This is the most amazing part of the game, in my opinion. The game, as in characters and quests, does react to your choices, represented by the Tides. Quests can also be influenced by time as well. It is a very well thought game, structurally speaking. The quest trees and the dialogue that accompany them are a showmanship of brilliance, skill, patience and overall desire to surpass Planescape: Torment.
Colin... ? Is this your work? Are the writers to blame for this part? If yes, then congratulations. It's one of the few things dragging this game forward. My respect to you.
PC relations with protagonist
While it's nice to look at the past with nostalgia rosey-eyed glasses, P:T didn't have that nailed down much either. I had expected a bit of a progress though. Oh well... I guess that's fine.
5. ("oh god he made just 5 points so far, I want to die" - is that what you thought? Yeah, I feel the same way) Characters
First off I would just like to say that is perhaps beyond me to criticise any work that Colin McComb wrote down. The writing itself in the game is beyond solid. I had immense pleasure of reading descriptions, dialogue and everything in between. It was the first time in a long time I actually hard the pleasure of seeing the word susurrus in a videogame, as well as me being forced to get a dictionary out because of a new word.
As such my critique of the characters, and later, of the script will be very short, and highly subjective. I imagine that any replies to this post that I will get as counters will be because of this part.
a) Aligern
- cardboard filler character. Nothing he was was relatable.
b) Callistege
- I would find her a long more interesting If I knew more about her background. Her backstory is really really thin. I mean, the pursuit of knowledge is great, but... shallow without a backstory.
c) Erritis
- tremendous amounts of fun, (real fun, the memorable kind
d) Matkina
- the thief with the heart of gold. She reminds us why Annah-of-the-Shadows is memorable. My second favourite character. Would bring along every playthrough.
e) Tybir
- who's he again? I forgot...
f) Rhin
- perhaps the best character in the game, and obviously my favourite. The most relatable. The most fun to have. The most memorable. Perhaps the best arc in the game too.
"my bread and hearth are yours to use"
^__^
And now: THE SCRIPT
It would be a titanic effort to completely and accurately judge how good the script actually is in its entirety. I assume this is the reason why so many critics gave such glorious reviews to this game. It is a very complex and well written script, and I cannot and will not venture out so far as to nitpick it (as it may seem I have done so far with everything else).
I will discuss one thing that I thought was weak (and I say "weak" very very carefully here) which is the overall premise.
Planescape: Torment had to deal with many abstract ideas. Life. Death. Circle of life. Torment. Regret. Change. Love. Survival. And many more.
Torment: Tides of Numenera is a step back, by fleshing out an actual physical thing to create tension.
P:T had an unseen "villain" all the way until the very last act. T:ToN shows its villain at the end of the 2nd act (showing that the director loves his art too much).
P:T "villain" turns out to be just an entity trying to ensure its own survival. T:ToN villain turns out to be a borderline mindless guardian.
I'm really sorry Collin, you are a brilliant man with a brilliant mind, and I respect you and your work deeply (as well as all the other writers), but I'm sure you can see the difference(s). I'm very sorry I have to point them out, but it's the truth...
I also mentioned hints of brilliance earlier - the second one is here: there's an apothecary in the Bloom that refuses to treat you because of you being a Castoff. Brilliant! World building! I loved it!
Another thing... and beside the diversity of the companions, which I'm sure it was pointed out in other reviews... what happened to LOVE. This game is so damned sterile. Where's the sex? Where's the hot scene where I kiss an amazingly looking half-demon, and her skin almost bursts into flame?
What happened? Did we forget romance?
How about the gay guy? Can he get something going?
How about about the old woman that teleports around? Is she a lesbian? Can she get something going? Or maybe adult Rhin?
GIVE US SOMETHING, KEVIN! WE WANT SEX!
*sigh*
6. ("oh god is he done yet?") Sound
Mark Morgan. I mean. He's a legend. You can't go wrong with his music.
We have music for loading screens now - that's nice.
We don't have scores for each individual character as we converse with them. I'm sure that was also Kevin or Brian, because I'm absolutely positive when I say that I'm sure Mark Morgan CAN compose music for each companion.
I also found very distracting that Lani Minella was the voice of Callistege. I kept having Skyrim flashbacks.
Also... what happened to Jennifer Hale? No money to get her 1 weekend to do a small voice over for 1 character maybe? I miss Jennifer Hale... *dreamy eyes*
If you stuck and read this far, you have my appreciation and respect. In your shoes, I would've lost interest like 15 minutes ago. As thanks... here's a list of annoying things/bugs I found:
- autochtons don't change lines if you make it night time in Circus Minor
- Solaire (Dark Souls) mutant guy doesn't stop praising the sun if the sun goes out in Circus Minor
- sticha lair and CG sanctum options when you talk to sticha leader, lead ( haha obvious pun) to the same place
- door noise when entering Dendra O'Hur, although no door is to be seen
- if you fight Ris, there's no time to loot his body because the captain doesn't let you
- adult Rhin stats are an insult to perfectionists who'd want perfectly even stats for maximum efficiency
- entering to talk to the Memovira for the first time - guard dialog box is can't be seen fully (although I suspect that might be my own screen resolution)
- Efimpi is shoehorned in at the last second to make some torment related sentences, and give the general audience a sense of "oh... I remember... this game is based of a good game".
In conclusion: Torment: Tides of Numenera is a decent game on its own... but complete poop compared to the original. If it wasn't for the writing... we'd be right there with Dak'kon before the Proclamation of the Two Skies. And I can't believe many of my peers (kids that grew up in the 90's) think this is a good game.
I am sorry for the moderator that had to read all this to approve it. I hope I didn't give you a headache. And I suggest you pass this along if no one from the dev team sees it. This may seem like hate, but it's actually tough love, and it would be nice to see them get better. <3"
But but but, the game just treats players like complete idiots all the time. Not just the start. The quests are incredibly easy, with everything you need to solve them within arm's reach, and as if that's not enough, the journal tells you explicitly where you need to go or what you need to do next. And there's an obnoxious amount of infodumping going on. The game insists on explaining every little thing to you at the outset. That's what kills the mystery, and it sure feels like the thing was written for cretins.
The reason people like the philethis so much is that it's not like that. It's says stuff which tantalises and half-makes-sense, and it's not explained; you're left to draw your own conclusions. I'm not saying it should be all philethis, all the time, but dropping about 75% of the exposition and explanation and letting the player figure it out -- or not -- would have been a massive improvement.
As an aside, I've been thinking about game openings lately. Most of them are utter garbage, even when people who really should know better are doing them. And this isn'tbtw, they always tended to be like that -- Baldur's Gate, Fallout 2, Deus Ex and plenty of other classics had shit openings. What's bizarre is that there hasn't been any progress: Mass Prosper: Hopw Roewur Ne apparently makes all the same mistakes as everybody else.
It's kinda surprising that solid conventions haven't emerged like in e.g. cinema or TV. But that's fodder for a whole 'nuther thread.
Actually, the intro sequence to Torment: TtoN was pretty great. Hard to come up with any better ones, really.
But I agree that openings to games are shit in general.
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Having recently played PST I did not take advantage of the ability to change classes and I really enjoyed the game regardless so I would not hold this against Tides.
Rules of Three - Yes it's mentioned in PST and I suppose there are some examples. But many examples where not. It's like looking for stuff that confirms your beliefs rather than being objective. The Rule of Not Three is everywhere too.
The whole Stats + Edge + Items + Cyphers really pissed me off. Seemed a lot like WL3 where you have ten different ways to open stuff. Just seemed additional layers to the same thing. I went through my game hardly using any cyphers at all.
Oddities were *not* interesting. One of the best things in PST as there were a lot of items that had some use, you just had to figure out where and when. A lot had quite interesting information. Oddities were just like different forms of cash. I never read about any of them.
Chris Avellone. He lucked out. It's clear from his interviews that he never thought PST would be this shining example of RPG.
Combat. Unlike some others I thought the PST combat was quite good the more I played it. I liked the spells and their effects and the requirement to use strategic positioning to win some of the tougher battles. Tides combat was broken and bugged. It caused the game to crash and enemy AI was lame as Alpha Protocol. The combat in Eyes of the Adversary I thought was good. However, once enemies increase to a certain number the engine breaks down. Maybe some potential if this is fixed but maybe better for fewer enemies that are tougher.
Portraits? Puke. I started a new game and went different sex and I think THE PORTRAIT IS THE SAME!
C&C - this could be the best part of the game but people will have to play the game more than once to appreciate it. It could be, that in the future the game gets high credit for this aspect once the walkthroughs and detailed game wiki come through. It could be.
It could be that developers concentrated on C&C at the cost of story and character and party development.
Unlike some others, I did not rate Rhin that great. Maybe she was the best of a bad lot. In PST I did not rate Annah or Grace that high either. Tides should have had at least one Morte or Dakkon level companion. JUST ONE AT LEAST.
Even Vhailor who you meet towards the end has a fascinating story and turns out to be a dangerous dude to have in your team. I think even he was better than anything in Tides.
Last point, I see a lot of people refer to Tides as 'Torment' in these forums and on Steam.
They should fckuk themselves.
RationalLunatic
Literate
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Not really. We've got almost black screen with some narration. In PST we had an intro cinematic that quite nicely set the tone and introduced player to Mortuary.
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Avellone figured out how to make this work well enough with kotor 2 ("Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you.")
Perhaps McComb should have realized there's perhaps a reason no narrative-heavy RPG tells you practically everything right at the beginning.
It puts the narration in a more appropriate scene and adds about ten minutes of extended/alternate scenes. Nothing radical.
Deus Ex throws you into the deep end of the pool, which I thought was great. I will defend Liberty Isle to the death.
Cinematics are for ADHD children, black screen is for monocled gentlemen.
Besides, you falling towards the earth was a very clever metaphor for conception - the sperm fertilizing the ovum. Perfect intro.
(No, I'm not counting what happens after you wake up from the fall outside your own mind as part of the intro)
Prime Junta
Guest
Was thinking of the "Welcome to UNATCO" tutorial actually. Fucking thing is long and dull. Skippable, fortunately. Liberty Island isn't bad.
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It teaches you the mechanics of the game by making you engage with them in a relatively safe environment. I'm not sure if there can be a more elegant, faster way of doing so.
Bloodlines does a similar thing but it punishes you for skipping it since you miss out on XP and a free lockpick.
Prime Junta
Guest
You've been around the block a few times. Think about it a bit. I'm sure you can come up with examples of games that introduce the mechanics organically, without an explicit tutorial. There are a few.
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They fold the tutorial portion into the game itself which is arguably worse for replays. I wouldn't want a mandatory linear corridors opening for Deus Ex.
Prime Junta
Guest
Not all of them. Case in point: Half-Life 2.
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Half-Life 2 is far more simple than Deus Ex and it's able to stagger out the learning because each segment has its own special gimmick that needs to be taught. Deus Ex's tutorial teaches you a hell of a lot and it's all necessary for Liberty Isle, which is a big open area that can be approached in multiple ways.
Efe
Erudite
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What is it you expect from a tutorial zone? you are given an option to just head out, it's you staying longer than necessary to squeeze out every bit of xp/gold. it's not like you have to install a mod like dungeon-be-gone to skip it.
Efe
Erudite
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Tutorial is there to ensure you know how to play. Still old men misplacing their shit, etc is not THAT far fetched. it might not be interesting but is not a negative at the very least.
i believe intro is the part you leave candlekeep, see gorion murdered and are given motivation to find sarevok.
i believe intro is the part you leave candlekeep, see gorion murdered and are given motivation to find sarevok.
an Administrator
Self-Ejected
Hitman: Contracts has the best tutorial level ever
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Malpercio
Arcane
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BG2's intro is only terrible when you have to replay it. It is genuinely interesting the first time you do it.
It also doesn't fuck up the plot the way TtoN does, if anything it makes things more interesting with all the foreshadowing that will be only relevant in 30 hours or so.
It also doesn't fuck up the plot the way TtoN does, if anything it makes things more interesting with all the foreshadowing that will be only relevant in 30 hours or so.
I would give it a 6,5-7/10, but only because of the Bloom. Without, it would be much, much lower. It's really a genuinely good area, and since it comes last, it changes your impression of the game.
Karellen
Arcane
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Somehow this point strikes me as amusing, because I always felt that Planescape: Torment gave away entirely too much way too soon. I think it's interesting you didn't mention PS:T when you mentioned classics with bad openings, because the Mortuary (despite having a killer atmosphere) is an area that plainly overstays its welcome, and could certainly have done with less banal exposition. The entire conversation with Dhall in particular always felt to me a bit like the early parts of The Fellowship of the Ring, where Tolkien, clearly in despair, goes to exhaustive detail to explain the respective movements of Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn and the Black Riders between the Shire and Rivendell: the sort of thing that overly invested writers produce when they've noticed that there are serious logical lapses with their story and try, unconvincingly, to patch them up, even though no one sane human being actually gives a damn. The proper place for it is the cutting room floor. Meeting Deionarra was a bit too early in the game too, in my opinion - the player hasn't even had the opportunity to enjoy being immortal yet, and already the ghost lady is telling them to kill themselves. I guess my ideal PS:T opening would have the player orient himself in Sigil with nothing but the tattoos on his back.
Having said all that, I don't think that the exposition is what makes T:ToN's opening significantly weaker. I think that the main issue with it is that the Resonance Chamber is a really bland plot hook, and motivating the player with the Sorrow is a pretty cheap gimmick too. It's the sort of thing RPGs default to when they need the player to pursue a goal even though the character is a blank slate and therefore potentially a sociopathic kitten molester that only cares about their own survival. PS:T relied on the player's curiousity to lead them to find out about themselves and their origins (one more reason why there's no need to have Deionarra tell you that you have to die), and the Nameless One was written with that in mind - the writing assumes that the player will actually follow the trail of breadcrumbs and doesn't need to be forced to do it, which is actually one of the reasons why PS:T's writing works so well - the Nameless One isn't a blank slate but a character in his own right. Exposition or no exposition, I think T:ToN could've come across as more exciting and dramatic if the game had the player seek out the mysteries of the Changing God because the Last Castoff wants to know about it, and not because they really have to fix some crystal coffin.
Lhynn
Arcane
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This is patently untrue.
It wasn't the most exciting, but it certainly wasn't anywhere near the levels of sheer, agonizing boredom that ToN is.
Lhynn
Arcane
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Its around the same, nothing happens in either game, then they end.
Tho i have heard a few interesting bits from TToN, like a whole place where navigation was CYOA based. PoE never did anything to change gameplay like that, the CYOA bits were too short and fairly inconsequential. Heard this changed in the DLC tho, some day ill probably get to play that.
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