Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Deleted Member 16721]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

If you're going to engage in a debate about tastes, then you should be willing to put your tastes on the table as well.

If you think Tides doesn't have amazing execution, then I think it would be beneficial to see which RPGs you consider having amazing execution so we can better debate it.

 

[Morality Games]

Main issue with harder combat in PS:T is that it would interrupt the flow of exploration and narrative. Instead of clicking around for whatever NPC or object is going to be the key to the next part of the game, you would be carefully managing your inventory and looking for the next well designed encounter.

You can wish for harder combat, but it's like me wishing that all off the rack sports coats were tailored exactly to my normal sized arms and irregularly long torso. It would break the whole system to cater to an extremely person.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Main issue with harder combat in PS:T is that it would interrupt the flow of exploration and narrative. Instead of clicking around for whatever NPC or object is going to be the key to the next part of the game, you would be carefully managing your inventory and looking for the next well designed encounter.

You can wish for harder combat, but it's like me wishing that all sports coats were tailored exactly to my normal sized arms and irregularly long torso.

I'd be fine with harder difficulty levels. The '5 out of 5' level in PS:T was still far too easy. Would have liked to see more "hardcore" options maybe, but any RPG can benefit from those and that's a complaint I have with a lot of them.

Bottom line for me is that these are just different types of experiences. I can adapt and enjoy them. In my perfect world, PS:T has harder, more impacting combat (and less items to use. Sheesh, those Infinity Engine RPGs often drowned you in potions, scrolls, buff items, etc..) and Numenera would perhaps have more combat (although, like I assume most here are, I'm playing an Intellect character and avoiding a lot of combat. Which was the case in PS:T, too, although there were obviously more mobs you couldn't avoid.)

Has anyone here played a Hulk Smash Everything!!! character in Tides? I imagine there's more combat that way.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

If you're going to engage in a debate about tastes, then you should be willing to put your tastes on the table as well.

If you think Tides doesn't have amazing execution, then I think it would be beneficial to see which RPGs you consider having amazing execution so we can better debate it.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I want to engage in a debate about taste with some unwashed who only just started playing SOME of the classic games and suddenly thinks he's an expert. Enough to tell me what I should like.
Yes, I SHOULD like what inXile does. But I don't. Guess it must be my fault.

But let it not be said that I don't take pity on the plebs: An RPG with "amazing execution" that's also new is Underrail. A game that was made by a couple of guys in their bedroom and is superior in every way to games that were made by supposed industry veterans... and some forum moderators, OK, I'll give you that.

inXile are burnt out hacks. Period.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

If you're going to engage in a debate about tastes, then you should be willing to put your tastes on the table as well.

If you think Tides doesn't have amazing execution, then I think it would be beneficial to see which RPGs you consider having amazing execution so we can better debate it.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I want to engage in a debate about taste with some unwashed who only just started playing SOME of the classic games and suddenly thinks he's an expert. Enough to tell me what I should like.
Yes, I SHOULD like what inXile does. But I don't. Guess it must be by fault.

But let it not be said that I don't take pity on the plebs: An RPG with "amazing execution" that's also new is Underrail. A game that was made by a couple of guys in their bedroom and is superior in every way to games that were made by supposed industry veterans... and some forum moderators, OK, I'll give you that.

inXile are burnt out hacks. Period.

Brilliant. So it goes like this - Let's not support RPG devs trying to make interesting CRPGs today, because they aren't absolutely perfect when compared to my nostalgic memories.

You think this approach will get us a ton of new, interesting RPGs made by anyone more than "a couple of guys in their bedroom"? Shitting on the people do it, we're somehow going to encourage more of these games to be made?

Oh wait, no. They'll probably just not try anymore. And not have the funds to do it.

So okay, let's not support these mid-level studio CRPGs. And yeah, let's get rid of InXile! That will help us! Let's destroy the very people who came back to try and make NEW, INTERESTING CRPGS IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN NONE WERE BEING MADE.

Shit's stupid. And it hearkens back to that meme from years past. "This is why we can't have nice things."

Underrail, great. Seems like a cool game, I have to play it. Can you scrounge up 2 other examples of your personally Amazing Execution RPGs? And I hope you enjoy Bedroom Bros RPG Productions for years to come when CRPGs are again shown to not be commercially viable.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Fuck off with your nostalgic memories bullshit, retard. You barely played any good RPGs and have shit taste and no critical thinking whatsoever.

"Nostalgic memories" is not a bad thing, by the way. Only to retards it is. Having nostalgic memories means you got to experience something good. You don't have any because you consume games like a consumerist retard who swallows every piece of shit that's put in front of him.

Also, fuck you again. I actually supported inXile. I donated to their Kickstarters instead of begging for free keys like the disgusting basement dweller that you are. So don't fucking lecture me on supporting them.

 

[Morality Games]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

If you're going to engage in a debate about tastes, then you should be willing to put your tastes on the table as well.

If you think Tides doesn't have amazing execution, then I think it would be beneficial to see which RPGs you consider having amazing execution so we can better debate it.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I want to engage in a debate about taste with some unwashed who only just started playing SOME of the classic games and suddenly thinks he's an expert. Enough to tell me what I should like.
Yes, I SHOULD like what inXile does. But I don't. Guess it must be by fault.

But let it not be said that I don't take pity on the plebs: An RPG with "amazing execution" that's also new is Underrail. A game that was made by a couple of guys in their bedroom and is superior in every way to games that were made by supposed industry veterans... and some forum moderators, OK, I'll give you that.

inXile are burnt out hacks. Period.

I believe there is a hidden fondness for Wasteland 2 that will appreciate with time.

It will never have the same cult status as the original Fallouts, but it is a game I find myself thinking back to from time to time.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Fuck off with your nostalgic memories bullshit, retard. You barely played any good RPGs and have shit taste and no critical thinking whatsoever.

"Nostalgic memories" is not a bad thing, by the way. Only to retards it is. Having nostalgic memories means you got to experience something good. You don't have any because you consume games like a consumerist retard who swallows every piece of shit that's put in front of him.

Also, fuck you again. I actually supported inXile. I donated to their Kickstarters instead of begging for free keys like the disgusting basement dweller that you are. So don't fucking lecture me on supporting them.

InXile had to fight against nostalgic memories when releasing Tides. It gets judged unfairly because of that. This is pretty much a fact regarding human psychology (I study these beings, they are very strange creatures, indeed.)

As for consumerist retard, will RPG devs will survive without consumers? The only ones that may survive will be Basement Bros. Development which employs 2 people max.

I'm glad you Kickstarted them. That's fucking awesome, kudos to you. The best I could do is buy multiple copies of RPGs I like, occasionally give them away and make videos for them. But alas, I am just a poor person with minimal extra spending cash (what can I say, property taxes are high in my area. And I enjoy great food. And buying nice things.)

To me it does not make any logical sense as a niche CRPG fan to rage against InXile when they are the motherfucking good guys. Otherwise we're stuck with Monolithic Game Corp. and Mr. Suit deciding which games to milk...err, make, and maybe select titles by Basement Bros. Development (which are welcomed.)

But hey, what do I know. I'm just voicing my god damn opinion. I salute you for Kickstarting them. I just wish we'd see more CRPG Unity (not the engine) online. Now excuse me, I'm going to lose myself in more CRPG goodness. Good day to you.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I don't care if you accept my appraisal or not, Raddy Bwoy. But out of curiosity, feel free to give me the names of 3 RPGs that you consider to have amazing execution, past or present. Ty.

Ah, I see you are well versed in kindergarden rhetoric.

Sorry, but whether there are RPGs with amazing execution or not has exactly zero bearing on TTON having it. Just like how the amount of good RPGs on Steam has zero bearing on TTON being a good RPG.

If you're going to engage in a debate about tastes, then you should be willing to put your tastes on the table as well.

If you think Tides doesn't have amazing execution, then I think it would be beneficial to see which RPGs you consider having amazing execution so we can better debate it.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I want to engage in a debate about taste with some unwashed who only just started playing SOME of the classic games and suddenly thinks he's an expert. Enough to tell me what I should like.
Yes, I SHOULD like what inXile does. But I don't. Guess it must be by fault.

But let it not be said that I don't take pity on the plebs: An RPG with "amazing execution" that's also new is Underrail. A game that was made by a couple of guys in their bedroom and is superior in every way to games that were made by supposed industry veterans... and some forum moderators, OK, I'll give you that.

inXile are burnt out hacks. Period.

I believe there is a hidden fondness for Wasteland 2 that will appreciate with time.

It will never have the same cult status as the original Fallouts, but it is a game I find myself thinking back to from time to time.

I have to play it more, but I appreciated what I saw of it. I'm one who likes having boatloads of stats, even if some aren't optimal or even fully and perfectly balanced. I prefer creative messes like Arcanum, Morrowind, etc., rather than perfectly streamlined (and IMO, boring) stat systems.

 

[FeelTheRads]

InXile had to fight against nostalgic memories when releasing Tides. It gets judged unfairly because of that. This is pretty much a fact regarding human psychology (I study these beings, they are very strange creatures, indeed.)

I specifically gave you Underrail as an example because it's a new game and all you can do is keep babbling bullshit about nostalgic memories. Obviously you can't grasp how that's retarded, just how you can't grasp that it's retarded to use "nostalgic memories" in a demeaning manner.

The only thing inXile had to fight is their own incompetence and cluelessness about the type of games they were supposed to develop. Obviously they lost that fight.

How did they fight against nostalgic memories? They were funded and over-funded by exactly those people who had nostalgic memories. And they failed to deliver.

And guess what, the ones they failed to sell the game to after release is the people who didn't have those nostalgic memories.

Or what, giving them money is not enough, should I now pretend to like their games and post fake reviews to make today's kids buy their games? Fuck off, shilling is not free.

Would their games have been better received critically if they didn't use well known, cult franchises? Very likely.
But here's the good part: even less people would have cared then. And their games are bad regardless of any comparison with other games and lack mainstream appeal by design so they wouldn't have sold much better.

So if anything they only benefited from nostalgic memories.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

InXile had to fight against nostalgic memories when releasing Tides. It gets judged unfairly because of that. This is pretty much a fact regarding human psychology (I study these beings, they are very strange creatures, indeed.)

I specifically gave you Underrail as an example because it's a new game and all you can do is keep babbling bullshit about nostalgic memories. Obviously you can't grasp how that's retarded, just how you can't grasp that it's retarded to use "nostalgic memories" in a demeaning manner.

The only thing inXile had to fight is their own incompetence and cluelessness about the type of games they were supposed to develop. Obviously they lost that fight.

How did they fight against nostalgic memories? They were funded and over-funded by exactly those people who had nostalgic memories. And they failed to deliver.

And guess what, the ones they failed to sell the game to after release is the people who didn't have those nostalgic memories.

Or what, giving them money is not enough, should I now pretend to like their games and post fake reviews to make today's kids buy their games? Fuck off, shilling is not free.

Would their games have been better received critically if they didn't use well known, cult franchises? Very likely. But here's the good part: even less people would have cared then.
So if anything they only benefited from nostalgic memories.

First, it's not demeaning when I say they were battling nostalgic memories. They were creating a spiritual successor to what many consider the greatest CRPG of all-time, of course they have to battle against nostalgia, along with unrealistic expectations, preconceptions, subconscious feelings, etc..

Even if they had delivered more they still would have ultimately faced some of the same problems. The reception of a game is not always entirely about the quality of the game itself (sometimes, it's not about the game itself at all...)

Look, I'm playing the game now. Tides is a very high quality game, especially for a AA studio. I personally can't understand how anyone who loved the core essence of Planescape could hate or rage against Tides, except maybe if they hate sci-fi or just really, really prefer monster-based D&D fantasy. It may not be quite to the level of PS:T overall, but it's as close as anything has come, and damn good in its own right. And I wonder if Planescape had come out in 2017 the type of reception it would have gotten.

It frustrates me that often these niche, interesting CRPGs perform poorly with sales, or get shit on by the community. I feel that it just discourages future CRPGs from being made at all, and gets us right back to square one where minimal CRPGs are being made, taking minimal risks, etc.. But whatever. It ain't really my battle. I just do my own thing and hope these types of games keep getting made somehow.

Peace out.

 

[Grotesque]

Torment Numenera failed because it was cursed by all the people that wanted it to be real time with pause.

 

[thesheeep]

Look, I'm playing the game now. Tides is a very high quality game, especially for a AA studio. I personally can't understand how anyone who loved the core essence of Planescape could hate or rage against Tides, except maybe if they hate sci-fi or just really, really prefer monster-based D&D fantasy. It may not be quite to the level of PS:T overall, but it's as close as anything has come, and damn good in its own right. And I wonder if Planescape had come out in 2017 the type of reception it would have gotten.

I honestly don't understand how anyone who played and liked Planescape could find this a more than acceptable game.

When I played through PS:T again about a year ago (so I'd say my memory is somewhat recent), I found the writing very good, very little verbal diarrhea, the story interesting, the pacing was really great (as in going from dialogue to dungeon diving to combat to dialogue, etc.), the atmosphere great (good setting!), the graphics amazing (for the time, but still charming today) and the performance really good. I played through it, of course, though I can't say I remember how long it took. A few weeks of playing a few hours every now and then.

When I played TToN about a month ago, I found
- the writing boring as hell and horrendously wordy - with very few exceptions -
- the story bored me from the get-go
- the pacing is absolutely abysmal - you just go from lore dump NPC to the next lore dump NPC two meters away hoping that one of them might lead to something interesting
- there is no noteworthy dungeon exploring at all
- the combat, oh LOL - I won't even comment on that one, but to be fair combat sucked in PS:T as well
- the atmosphere "meh" - though that might be the underlying setting, everything is quite honestly just weird for the sake of being weird. There is absolutely no overarching anything holding two locations together, no coherence.
- the graphics are okay, but the performance is really bad in some locations (mostly those with many moving parts like the intro)

I really tried to keep going, but just gave up at some point. The thought of discovering yet another NPC lore dump location was just too much.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Look, I'm playing the game now. Tides is a very high quality game, especially for a AA studio. I personally can't understand how anyone who loved the core essence of Planescape could hate or rage against Tides, except maybe if they hate sci-fi or just really, really prefer monster-based D&D fantasy. It may not be quite to the level of PS:T overall, but it's as close as anything has come, and damn good in its own right. And I wonder if Planescape had come out in 2017 the type of reception it would have gotten.

I honestly don't understand how anyone who played and liked Planescape could find this a more than acceptable game.

When I played through PS:T again about a year ago (so I'd say my memory is somewhat recent), I found the writing very good, very little verbal diarrhea, the story interesting, the pacing was really great (as in going from dialogue to dungeon diving to combat to dialogue, etc.), the atmosphere great (good setting!), the graphics amazing (for the time, but still charming today) and the performance really good. I played through it, of course, though I can't say I remember how long it took. A few weeks of playing a few hours every now and then.

When I played TToN about a month ago, I found
- the writing boring as hell and horrendously wordy - with very few exceptions -
- the story bored me from the get-go
- the pacing is absolutely abysmal - you just go from lore dump NPC to the next lore dump NPC two meters away hoping that one of them might lead to something interesting
- there is no noteworthy dungeon exploring at all
- the combat, oh LOL - I won't even comment on that one, but to be fair combat sucked in PS:T as well
- the atmosphere "meh" - though that might be the underlying setting, everything is quite honestly just weird for the sake of being weird. There is absolutely no overarching anything holding two locations together, no coherence.
- the graphics are okay, but the performance is really bad in some locations (mostly those with many moving parts like the intro)

I really tried to keep going, but just gave up at some point. The thought of discovering yet another NPC lore dump location was just too much.

First off, how long did you play it for? I'm 30 hours in and really enjoying it.

I disagree with your subjective quality opinions, but objectively, having completed Planescape in roughly 90-ish hours a few months back, that game to me was just as wordy and the gameplay was essentially the exact same (move from NPC to NPC, talking to them for a long time, move on to the next.) The games to me are incredibly similar, with of course some obvious differences, like Tides having more objects you can interact with and a much deeper skill-check/stat interaction system (stats affect even the lore you see when you find a new weapon or strange item, and background Perception and 3 different Lore types skill checks go on, too. You may trigger an entirely new quest or some new bit of backstory just by having the right skills, etc..) and with Tides being more compact in scale (so far, in terms of the starting city) yet also a bit wider in some ways.

I actually love the combat. At least, in theory. With harder difficulty levels it would be better, but I felt that about Planescape, too (and many other RPGs.) You can interact with the environment in different ways, or just power your way through. There aren't many turn-based RPGs you can do things like that, talk to an NPC and use skill checks while actually in combat. Cyphers are also kind of cool, I like that they have a detriment to carrying too many, and the Esoteries and general attacks are of a good quality design, but again, for me, I want/need harder difficulty levels that force me to use everything at my disposal. For what's there, with the Effort system as well (which I like a lot, too, but again, harder difficulties and harder balance levels, plz), has great potential.

Higher difficulty levels that force more management of Effort, items, cyphers, etc., and raised enemy difficulty in general would make the combat even better. But as-is, it's not some atrocious system or anything. It's still way better than Planescape's IMO (although I am the odd one who thought Planescape's combat was good too, I love RTWP and Infinity Engine combat.) And even at 30 hours in, I can honestly say I am not missing combat. How crazy is that? 30 hours in an RPG and had just a few combat encounters so far, and I'm still deeply enthralled with the game, not even noticing I'm missing anything. Crazy. And before you say it, you still have to equip your dudes in case combat happens, since when/if you die, different consequences can happen also. So I still do a bit of inventory and equipment management, albeit a bit less than other RPGs like it (less than Planescape, too.)

But eh, just my 2 cents. Cheerio.

 

[Roguey]

Raising effort requirements means nothing given all the free resting you can do in every area.

 

[Efe]

i thought quest outcomes changed when you rest.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Raising effort requirements means nothing given all the free resting you can do in every area.

Well, to get free resting you also need to fulfill certain requirements. Which isn't that hard, and should be harder (see a running theme here? ) Also, that reminds me of Pillars where players would literally go all the way back to town to get more camping supplies rather than just pressing on and accepting the challenge.

I would love to see more reasons to keep you from resting, like the one quest that happens with certain consequences after you sleep (i.e. a time element. Oh no, something bad is going to happen soon! Who knows what will happen if you sleep now...) More of that would be great.

I've only failed a handful of Effort checks so far, mostly in combat, but maybe just one or two outside of combat where I was trying to conserve points early before having free resting spots. And the restorative items can get expensive, at the start at least, with shins somewhat hard to come by if you don't sell Oddities, which I hoard, even though they seem to be vendor trash. Wish there were more reasons to keep those items, too. Doesn't have to lead to huge, sprawling quests, but little interactions based on them, etc., would be cool, and would give you a risk/reward/choice for what you decide to do with them. There are certain items you can interact with and play with, like the Bronze Sphere from Planescape, etc..

But I like the feel of the Effort system. It can be improved. The game is not all that hard in any way, but it's fascinating. There are many choices to make, weird situations that catch you off-guard and you aren't sure how to respond, just like Planescape (this happens even more in Tides, IMO.) Lots of odd consequences and unexpected twists. Strange interactions with items, people, and just "toys" to play with. That's why I said it's like an amusement park of odd encounters. That is what is keeping me playing, along with the overarching mystery of the story (which is pretty damn good, I feel.)

If you play it for that type of experience, it's great. It's not all that far off from Planescape to me.

 

[Roguey]

i thought quest outcomes changed when you rest.

Only a select few per hub. It'd be a scripting nightmare to apply that to every single one.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I remember one in the cliffy area. I don't know which, if any, is there in the meaty area.

 

[Roguey]

I remember one in the the cliffy area. I don't know which, if any, is there in the meaty area.

The birdmen will eventually eat their prisoners, and the potential gang war can start and end without you.

 

[DosBuster]

Raising effort requirements means nothing given all the free resting you can do in every area.

You could fix that via level design, have a dungeon with multiple effort trials, make the player ration their effort. I can't remember if they do that or not but that'd be a good way to counteract resting.

 

[Roguey]

You could fix that via level design, have a dungeon with multiple effort trials, make the player ration their effort. I can't remember if they do that or not but that'd be a good way to counteract resting.

No one except a garage dev is going to put you in a dungeon that locks you in, potentially resulting in a game over.

 

[Iznaliu]

I just noticed this while reading about the Numenera 2 Kickstarter on its Kickstarter page:

The original Numenera RPG was launched via a 2012 Kickstarter campaign that shattered every record (at the time) for tabletop RPGs. The corebook has seen four printings, and Numenera is enjoyed by tens of thousands of gamers in an active global community. We have published over 60 supplements and accessories, and released a terrific starter set for new players. The Ninth World has spawned a critically-acclaimed hit computer game, board games, an excellent short film, a line of novels, and other licensed items, and Numenera has been translated into many languages including French, Spanish, Italian, Korean, German, and Portuguese.

I don't think T:ToN qualifies as either "critically-acclaimed" or a "hit", and from what I've heard, PnP Numenera isn't doing too well either.

 

[StaticSpine]

I don't think T:ToN qualifies as either "critically-acclaimed"

Actually it does. We even discussed that being critically-acclaimed doesn't help the sales in case of TToN.

 

[Turjan]

Yup. The game is definitely "critically-acclaimed", whether you like it or not.

Not sure about "hit" game. Maybe it was a hit with Monte's wife.