Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[evdk]

This game is a cargo cult PS:T.

Fight me.

 

[canakin]

Wasteland 2 was better than this.

 

[Excidium II]

Wasteland 2 was better than this.

Game with no gameplay still plays better than Wasteland 2

 

[Sigourn]

So what's it like? Worth pirating?

Have you played Wasteland 2?

So far I'm enjoying Torment. Game says I've been playing for three hours, but I did ALT-TAB a few times to check on the Codex. It's been interesting so far, and I enjoy reading the dialogue slightly out loud with different accents to make it more interesting. Not being a native English speaker means I can potentially read an entire paragraph, but completely skip on the meaning of it if I'm not paying attention.

Like I said, it's enjoyable. Just one real fight in two and a half hours, and even then it was just the tutorial. By comparison, I'm pretty sure I had at least a handful of boring encounters in W2, and it was uninspiring map after uninspiring map. The art is just so much better in Torment, and the lore is engaging. Three hours is a lot in my case, considering PoE didn't keep me engaged this long. So yeah, don't give your money to Fargo.

Comment aside on how it is funny that in these three hours Torment is already a much better RPG than Fallout 4. Then again, it isn't saying much... It's better than Wasteland 2, but barely: being able to surpass skillchecks with your companions is stupid as hell, though I got rid of those early.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

What you're really saying is, "PS:T felt like an adventure game to me, feelings can't really be articulated, but they are real." Sure. If, in fact, PS:T felt like adventure games to you, then you're 100% correct in describing your feelings. That said, overwhelmingly the people who say PS:T is an adventure game say that not because it actually felt anything like an adventure game to them but because they are aggressively patrolling the boundaries of their preferred genre (a particular subset of RPG) and are using "adventure game" as a pejorative shorthand. I am extraordinarily skeptical that anyone (including you and Agris) when finishing PS:T thought to himself, "Wow, this really reminded me of Monkey Island and King's Quest."

I do think that PS:T is similar to Japanese RPGs. I think it's dumb to call it a jRPG, but it's less dumb to call it a jRPG than it is to call it an adventure game because some of PS:T's defining features (a well-defined player character, an eclectic cast of well-defined and long-winded companions, a huge word count, easy combat) and smaller features (e.g., flamboyant high-level spell effects) are closer to jRPGs than most Western RPGs and because Avellone admits that jRPGs were a heavy influence on PS:T. But jRPGs aren't at all like adventure games either -- they essentially never feature inventory puzzles, very rarely have environmental puzzles (e.g., Lufia II), and including large amounts of combat and grinding. The Codexian meme that jRPGs are "adventure games" rather than RPGs is just another example of this pejorative usage.

If you wanted an apt pejorative for PS:T, I would say that "visual novel" would be the one you're looking for. You'd be wrong, but that's the least wrong pejorative of the three (adventure game, jRPG, visual novel).

---EDIT---

Ultimately, if you're going to use labels, those labels have to rest on something other than idiosyncratic feelings or they aren't useful for communication. Common usage, key features, ancestry, and creators' intent all make PS:T an RPG. What is on the other side of the ledger?

No, I didn't finish PS:T with thoughts about how it seemed a lot like Monkey Island, but I didn't finish it with thoughts like "wow I did a game mechanic X today", either. I also don't have thoughts like "hey I'm doing Monkey Island style puzzles" while I'm doing Monkey Island style puzzles, and I don't think that "hey I'm currently doing skillchecks and exploring C&C possibilities" while I'm playing Fallout 2. And I seriously doubt that anybody does.

You might as well try and analyze a joy of driving a car by explaining how fossil fuels came to be. Technically you'd be right, but you'd also be missing a point. It's not about feelings, it's about how as players we are not experiencing games as a series of disjointed mechanics. We're taking it all in as a whole, and it really doesn't matter if Avellone wanted to make platformer, jRPG or a shooter, what matters is that PS:T, while using game mechanics that are commonly associated with RPGs, plays as something entirely different. Just like modern AAA games, despite often having loot, companions, plot, xp and levels, aren't really RPGs either.

To me it PS:T plays an adventure game, because it invokes a sense of wonder, curiosity and encourages poking around and just trying weird shit. Because that's what I do when I play an adventure game. I don't do inventory puzzles, I don't engage in pixel hunting mechanics and I don't exhaust dialogue options to advance the plot. I poke around and I try weird shit. That's not what I do when I play a traditional RPG, because those are typically power fantasies, you play them to become the biggest cock destroyer in the universe, you play to win.

Nobody plays adventure games to win, you play them to see what happens next. Whether it"s picking dumbass dialogue options, or randomly clicking with a rubber duck on a subway track, this is what you do as a player. It's similar to adventure games because the player agency ends up being similar, and whether it was accomplished through mechanics from this or that genre, who honestly cares?

 

[Night Goat]

Dammit, Rhin is useless but I feel bad about kicking her out. Does she ever become useful?

TFW you meet MCA's companion and he's just Minsc 2.0

who's his companion?

Erritis

 

[Excidium II]

Game got p. boring, srs barrage of side quests.

 

[Shadenuat]

Dammit, Rhin is useless but I feel bad about kicking her out. Does she ever become useful?

Healing + give her all damaging cyphers. There is a small encounter in one of the quests where you can give her an item that gives her +2 cyphers to use.
And what do you mean by useless exactly? After playing for 13 hours, I found exactly 1 mandatory combat (hospital dungeon in the beginning). You can give here Lore skills and so on too.
I just run with her and heal Erritis every turn if I ever feel like I want some combat. But, it's not like I want some too much.

Because abilities bug out; enemies just gang up on my nano and kill him in 1st turn sometimes ignoring Erritis - due to awesum initiative in this game where it's just flat amount without an extra dice - so you can have like 6 enemies just act together in a row without you being able to do anything about it; and it generally kinda sucks. Whole Codex should have voted RtWP, would end up at least quicker.

I entered First Castoff tomb. Realised that environmental artists and Morgan, compared to others, at least pulled their weight. Game has some hauntingly beautiful and serene places, something that PoE was mostly lacking.
Poor, small, undetailed, unmemorable and generally boring NPC models stick out of backgrounds the prettier they are though.

I still have no idea what is game about, what is setting about, and what is happening, and often skip the super text dumps.

With one exception - the Severed Child quest and it's text quest. Carefully read and studied every bit of it, unusually complex + you see character from quest before + c&c.

They say games are more than sum of their parts. With TTON, I think it's other way around - lot of it's parts are better than what game is as a whole.

And holy fuck companions just suck. Half of NPCs you meet are more interesting than your crew of mysterious transdimensional gypsies/deadly female ASSasins/etc.

 

[YES!]

Wasteland 2 was better than this.

I certainly agree with you. WL2 DC is amazing, but this is a good crpg. In my opinion on par with D:OS, PoE, and Tyranny. It is not as good as WL2 DC or even MMX to me, or some smaller studio games like Underrail and AoD. But, graphics aren't a huge deal for me but this game looks really nice. Nice enough for me to take notice and appreciate them. The combat isn't bad. The content is good. And the rpg system is unique enough to keep me interested. And it isn't fast (so far). I feel like the character development choices I make are important and matter in most ways. In a lot of ways not really, as I save spam to save points and get good rolls. It is not necessary, but I see no difference in doing this or save spamming in WL2 to get the mod I wanted from breaking down a weapon.

This game would be a lot better with ironman. And if ironman is a possibility I can't find it.

 

[MRY]

To me it PS:T plays an adventure game, because it invokes a sense of wonder, curiosity and encourages poking around and just trying weird shit. Because that's what I do when I play an adventure game.

That can't be the right standard -- among the games that evoked the same sense in me would be: Ecco the Dolphin, Dwarf Fortress, The Age of Decadence, Sim Life, Ultima VII, Minecraft, The Incredible Machine, Shadow of the Colossus, and Super Mario World. Just off the top of my head. And among the games that did not evoke such a sense in me would be -- Gabriel Knight, Police Quest III, and Technobabylon, even though they are all plainly adventure games and even good or great adventure games.

Let me give an example. My taste in classical music is really middlebrow. I like romantic, melodic pieces. Puccini arias and Tchaikovsky ballets and Dvorak symphonies all evoke a similar reaction in me. But I certainly wouldn't listen to Nessun Dorma and declare, "What a fantastic symphony I just listened to!" In fact, in merely experiencing a thing I'm usually not trying to categorize it. But when trying to categorize it, I don't just rely on my subjective experience of it because I realize that everyone's subjective experience is different.

 

[Urthor]

Dammit, Rhin is useless but I feel bad about kicking her out. Does she ever become useful?

Yes, extremely. #1 she can hide during crisis and run and do interactions without being interfered with. #2

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/mjZ4DLO.png

Also this is much better than wasteland 2, CYOA>>>combat slog after combat slog

 

[YES!]

It's impossible to tell if these Year:2017 kiddos that stick around GRPD these days are being honest or just very clearly cautious in saying anything too good about this game. Reading lots of "decent", "average fun", "ok" in this thread. Is it just a meh game or is it a great game that you're afraid the kkkonsensus will turn against you further down the road and the Kodex thought police will knock on your door?

I think it is better than PoE and Tyranny, but not by leaps and bounds. It is a solid crpg and well worth the money. I don't think it is an instant classic top 10 rpg; but neither did I think PoE or tyranny were either. It is a good game and a solid purchase. I'm not a huge story guy so that part may be mind blowing for story people, but for me nothing about the game is mind blowing. It is a solid game done competently and there is nothing I see (besides minor technical issues) to whine or complain about.

It's different enough in most systems and settings to be more interesting than the standard setting. I don't think it is as good a setting, or as alien a setting as Planescape, but far, far closer to it than your standard setting.

 

[Ivan]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT the not-Smoldering Corpse psychic bar. INFO DUMP HELL

 

[canakin]

It's impossible to tell if these Year:2017 kiddos that stick around GRPD these days are being honest or just very clearly cautious in saying anything too good about this game. Reading lots of "decent", "average fun", "ok" in this thread. Is it just a meh game or is it a great game that you're afraid the kkkonsensus will turn against you further down the road and the Kodex thought police will knock on your door?

Why don't you play it yourself and see? It's not much different than reading stuff on a forum anyway.

 

[AetherVagrant]

Fuck no,W2 had more, and good combat, but far im enjoying TTON way more. I was able to continue my save from an old early access game, and found several more quests to complete in Sagus cliffs, It feels more like Q4G than planescape when it comes to structure, and the UI totally sucks, but im actually reading the dialogues rather than skipping through them,my persuasive nano found 2 more combats before even leaving the initial area and one of them was actually challenging. It is less rpg than Planescape, but so far way more interesting than tyrany thats for sure. Wasteland 2 had lots of boring combat that was tactically interesting, so far i give more shit about the story and characters in this game much more, though errit fucking sucks and i wish he didnt have all the voice-acting, but i need one warrior in my part and he is it.

 

[Ivan]

I gotta say, Tybir is probably the most boring companion I've ever encountered in a story-driven RPG. I miss Eder

 

[canakin]

Wasteland 2 was better than this.

I certainly agree with you. WL2 DC is amazing, but this is a good crpg. In my opinion on par with D:OS, PoE, and Tyranny. It is not as good as WL2 DC or even MMX to me, or some smaller studio games like Underrail and AoD. But, graphics aren't a huge deal for me but this game looks really nice. Nice enough for me to take notice and appreciate them. The combat isn't bad. The content is good. And the rpg system is unique enough to keep me interested. And it isn't fast (so far). I feel like the character development choices I make are important and matter in most ways. In a lot of ways not really, as I save spam to save points and get good rolls. It is not necessary, but I see no difference in doing this or save spamming in WL2 to get the mod I wanted from breaking down a weapon.

This game would be a lot better with ironman. And if ironman is a possibility I can't find it.

I only disagree with it being on par with D:OS. D:OS shits all over Pillows, Tranny and Tournament: Numenera and is slightly better than W2:DC

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

To me it PS:T plays an adventure game, because it invokes a sense of wonder, curiosity and encourages poking around and just trying weird shit. Because that's what I do when I play an adventure game.

That can't be the right standard -- among the games that evoked the same sense in me would be: Ecco the Dolphin, Dwarf Fortress, The Age of Decadence, Sim Life, Ultima VII, Minecraft, The Incredible Machine, Shadow of the Colossus, and Super Mario World. Just off the top of my head. And among the games that did not evoke such a sense in me would be -- Gabriel Knight, Police Quest III, and Technobabylon, even though they are all plainly adventure games and even good or great adventure games.

Let me give an example. My taste in classical music is really middlebrow. I like romantic, melodic pieces. Puccini arias and Tchaikovsky ballets and Dvorak symphonies all evoke a similar reaction in me. But I certainly wouldn't listen to Nessun Dorma and declare, "What a fantastic symphony I just listened to!" In fact, in merely experiencing a thing I'm usually not trying to categorize it. But when trying to categorize it, I don't just rely on my subjective experience of it because I realize that everyone's subjective experience is different.

Would you say that Star Wars is a sword&sorcery movie? Or maybe it isn't because "technically" lightsabers aren't swords and midichlorians are science?

 

[Smoker]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT the not-Smoldering Corpse psychic bar. INFO DUMP HELL

That's one of the best parts so far. I'm about to ditch Tybir. He sticks out so much and barely banters.

 

[MRY]

Star Wars is a planetary romance, probably. The prequels sometimes edge closer to space opera. The structure of the OT is very much that of a fairy tale -- the orphan who is secretly a prince, with the help of a wise wizard and a noble bandit, rescues the princess by defeating the evil sorcerer. It's not really sword & sorcery, though. That genre typically has protagonists who are the opposite of unskilled naifs -- think Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, etc. -- and often the stories center around retrieving a treasure rather than around overthrowing an evil regime.

But the whole framework is a little off because "sword & sorcery movie" is such a tiny category that you can't really generalize among it (what would you put in it? Kull maybe? Conan...). Trying to map short story genres onto feature films only works when there is enough within the genre for it to work.

This feels a little tangential from the topic though, since there are literally hundreds of adventure games and thousands of RPGs with well defined boundaries between the two....

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

We'll pick it up another time because I'm drunk out of my ass which makes me paranoid about grammar and punctuation.

 

[Urthor]

I gotta say, Tybir is probably the most boring companion I've ever encountered in a story-driven RPG. I miss Eder

You know nothing John Snow.

 

[Smoker]

You know nothing John Snow.

I'm kinda thinking this with MCA's character.

 

[Volrath]

So what's it like? Worth pirating?

Nope. Avoid.

 

[Cyberarmy]

They say games are more than sum of their parts. With TTON, I think it's other way around - lot of it's parts are better than what game is as a whole.

And holy fuck companions just suck. Half of NPCs you meet are more interesting than your crew of mysterious transdimensional gypsies/deadly female ASSasins/etc.

Completely agree on both parts.