Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[Luckmann]

I concur that picking Numenera as a setting was the worst decision of them all.

A setting where anything goes is not a setting at all, it's a Theme Park: Weird Shit.

Combine that with ruleset which is better suited for a point&click adventure than it is for a CRPG and with Monte throwing tantrums over political bullshit and you've got a recipe for disaster.

I agree that picking Numanuma as a setting was a horrible, horrible decision, largely because of the reason you state: It as little to no consistency, and it's the setting of "lol I dunno" and "oh weird xD". However, I disagree in that it wasn't the worst decision. After all, compare it to the setting of Golarion, which isn't as bad as Numanuma, but is still a terrible kitchen-sink and probably easily in the top 10 of shit fantasy settings, yet Pathfinder: Kingmaker had no real issues making sense of it and creating a somewhat self-contained narrative that makes sense within the confines of itself - even when there's hints to the wider world (such as Numeria) it's not on the level of retardation that the setting would actually warrant in order to make a lick of sense (when you run into the Technic League, they don't shoot you with laz0rs, etc.)

So yeah, Numanuma was a horrible choice for a setting, and the Cypher System was a horrible system that came with it (and simply do not work properly in a CRPG anyway), but a far greater issue is that they failed at even using it and creating the necessary framework and narrative structure that would've made Numanuma at least "OK".

 

[tripedal]

This type of setting can work in the right hands. Case in point:

 

[Lhynn]

The setting is shit, but weve seen developers work with shit constantly and deliver something great.

Fucking planescape is a retarded setting filled with dumb shit, yet MCA still managed to give us something great.


The only conclusion you could draw from numanuma is that nobody there knew what the fuck they were doing, crippling lack of vision and fundamental understanding of the genre, coupled with making it for a non-existent audience. Tumblerinas dont play rpgs.

 

[Fairfax]

Fucking planescape is a retarded setting filled with dumb shit

 

[Lhynn]

It is, i read all the official books like 15 years ago. Its filled with dumb made up words and retarded factions left and right, very few interesting conflicts, like 1 interesting character and the most interesting thing about it is exploring the planes that are outside of sigil, sigil itself is just a dumb and gamey place. Filled with completely arbitrary mechanics that are there to empower the DM.


PTSD is the only good thing that has ever been done with the setting in any official capacity. Eberron is like a billion times more interesting, and it still isnt what i would call good.

 

[Roguey]

A setting where anything goes is not a setting at all, it's a Theme Park: Weird Shit.

Worked for Fallout 3, which was nominated for multiple award and won at least one for writing https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1073664/awards

Combine that with ruleset which is better suited for a point&click adventure than it is for a CRPG

This makes it perfect for a Torment successor.

and with Monte throwing tantrums over political bullshit and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Granted, this was true.

 

[Lhynn]

Seems like i hurt the sensibilities of some oldfag fanboys. No arguments, just impotent ratings.

If you truly believe anything in the campaign books was remotely as good as anything MCA wrote in the game, then you probably backed BT4.

 

[Fairfax]

An Eberron fan attacking Planescape with those "arguments" is so ironic that I just assumed you were trolling. It's a pity that you're serious, you sound like Cael or Safav.

 

[Lhynn]

Im not an eberron fan. I do find it laughable that you have no arguments, just some lame personal attack.
Its just planescape setting is so fundamentally retarded on every level you cant help but laugh at anyone actually liking it.

The factions are so incredibly dumb, both mechanically and narratively speaking, and are incompatible with the cooperative nature of the game. They stink of pretentiousness and lack of understanding of the players or the point of the game, they are also a pain to DM outside of modules. Feels like they just put them there because the guys at whitewolf did something similar.

Then you have an entire setting that works completely arbitrarily at the whims of the DM witout him having to bother with coherent storytelling of any kind, it happens because its sigil. The lady, the doors, etc. Are just built in systems to keep the players in check from a narrative standpoint, it sucks.

Finally the art, oh i fucking hate planescape art.

Spoiler

What the shit is that? All the book is ugly and overdesigned like that and i really cant tell what they are trying to tell me. The description of the bleak cabal doesnt tell me anything about evil warrriors and blackguards, and the fucking drawing doesnt tell me anything about their philosphy. Its shit that a highschool student with a lot of free time and wikipedia would put together.
The revolutionary league looks like a bunch of hobos that tripped over several peoples dressers on their way to the alley. that shit does not scream revolution of any kind.


Like i said, the whole setting is complete and utter garbo and the only good thing that was done with the property was torment and thats only because it managed to sidestep most of the retardation.

 

[Fairfax]

Im not an eberron fan. I do find it laughable that you have no arguments, just some lame personal attack.

I've seen you praise Eberron a few times, but if you say so. Anyway, it wasn't a personal attack. I honestly thought you were trolling, because everything you said applies to Eberron. Eberron was designed to be gamey, everything-but-the-kitchen-sink, arbitrary, pulp action steampunk D&D. It's by far the least sophisticated setting in the history of D&D (which is saying something), and its fans love it because of it.

The factions are so incredibly dumb, both mechanically and narratively speaking, and are incompatible with the cooperative nature of the game.

They stink of pretentiousness and lack of understanding of the players or the point of the game, they are also a pain to DM outside of modules. Feels like they just put them there because the guys at whitewolf did something similar.

The factions are by far one of the most liked aspects. It's ok if they're not for you, but they obviously did something for players. Also, you've never played it, so how do you know it's "a pain to DM"?

Then you have an entire setting that works completely arbitrarily at the whims of the DM witout him having to bother with coherent storytelling of any kind, it happens because its sigil. The lady, the doors, etc. Are just built in systems to keep the players in check from a narrative standpoint, it sucks.

"The lady, the doors, etc". Your knowledge from reading "all the official books" is really showing. And how does any of that hurt the storytelling?

What the shit is that? All the book is ugly and overdesigned like that and i really cant tell what they are trying to tell me. The description of the bleak cabal doesnt tell me anything about evil warrriors and blackguards, and the fucking drawing doesnt tell me anything about their philosphy. Its shit that a highschool student with a lot of free time and wikipedia would put together.

That's not from the books. You'd know that if you had actually read them. This is how they're introduced and described in the Campaign Setting book:

Like i said, the whole setting is complete and utter garbo and the only good thing that was done with the property was torment and thats only because it managed to sidestep most of the retardation.

IIRC you once said you've never played PS:T. It seems that hasn't changed. The idea that it's good despite the setting is just absurd.

It's fine to hate Planescape. No accounting for taste and all that. However, pretending that you've read all the books and whatnot is just embarrassing. Just say that you don't like the concept and hate the art. Oh, and you should play PS:T. It's a pretty good game.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I have all three Planescape bestiaries and the art in them is gorgeous. I almost had the urge to make an NWN Planescape module. Had the story written, maps drawn, etc., but would need outside help with creature art and what not. The setting to me is awesome, my favorite D&D setting with FR. It's also largely untapped in the game/module area. Someone should really change that.

 

[Luckmann]

[Eberron] is by far the least sophisticated setting in the history of D&D (which is saying something), and its fans love it because of it.

Not counting Pathfinder as D&D, I see.

Im not an eberron fan. I do find it laughable that you have no arguments, just some lame personal attack.
Its just planescape setting is so fundamentally retarded on every level you cant help but laugh at anyone actually liking it.

The factions are so incredibly dumb, both mechanically and narratively speaking, and are incompatible with the cooperative nature of the game. They stink of pretentiousness and lack of understanding of the players or the point of the game, they are also a pain to DM outside of modules. Feels like they just put them there because the guys at whitewolf did something similar.

Then you have an entire setting that works completely arbitrarily at the whims of the DM witout him having to bother with coherent storytelling of any kind, it happens because its sigil. The lady, the doors, etc. Are just built in systems to keep the players in check from a narrative standpoint, it sucks.

Finally the art, oh i fucking hate planescape art.

Spoiler

What the shit is that? All the book is ugly and overdesigned like that and i really cant tell what they are trying to tell me. The description of the bleak cabal doesnt tell me anything about evil warrriors and blackguards, and the fucking drawing doesnt tell me anything about their philosphy. Its shit that a highschool student with a lot of free time and wikipedia would put together.
The revolutionary league looks like a bunch of hobos that tripped over several peoples dressers on their way to the alley. that shit does not scream revolution of any kind.

Like i said, the whole setting is complete and utter garbo and the only good thing that was done with the property was torment and thats only because it managed to sidestep most of the retardation.

Confirmed for shit taste.

Spoiler

The art is pretty shit, though, but mostly because of that particular artist's shitty renditions, there's nothing wrong with the artistic vision or style in itself.

Spoiler

It's also funny because "a bunch of hobos that tripped over several peoples' dressers on their way to the alley" describes the garden-variety anarchist pretty well.

This type of setting can work in the right hands. Case in point:

What does this have to do with Numanuma, aside from MCA reading it for inspiration? Nobody even suggested that it's the "far future" theme that makes Numanuma bad, and you can't really say that Numanuma is part of the "Dying Earth" genre either.

Genuine question, I haven't read Wolfe.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

This type of setting can work in the right hands. Case in point:

Right so you only need the best sci-fi writer who ever lived to pull it off.

 

[Prime Junta]

Eh, I wouldn't call Numenara a trainwreck. It's kinda just... flat more than anything.

Yeah, trainwrecks are at least interesting, and worth further examination.

We're still examining this one.

What does this have to do with Numanuma, aside from MCA reading it for inspiration? Nobody even suggested that it's the "far future" theme that makes Numanuma bad, and you can't really say that Numanuma is part of the "Dying Earth" genre either.

Genuine question, I haven't read Wolfe.

There are a lot of similarities. Both are in the deep future. Both feature a pseudo-medieval setting sprinkled with super-advanced technology from precursor civilisations and aliens. Both are heavy on the weird and do not even attempt to explain what the precursor civilisations or aliens were or are like. Both have elites who have an inkling of understanding of what the real deal is.

Basically, Numenera is like somebody read Book of the New Sun, really loved it but had no idea why and missed everything that is really great about it, and then just took the most trivial, most obvious bits and built an imitation out of that.

Book of the New Sun is a brilliant, tortured masterpiece. Terrible politics, but you ought to like that part.

 

[TemplarGR]

I hate eco-chambers and circlejerks. The Planescape Torment worship is a great example of why. It was a mediocre game even by late 90s standards, which is why it never sold well, and really, outside of a cult following, no one even knew this game back then. I was an Infinite engine fanatic and i didn't care for Torment either.

For some reason i will probably never understand, if a game does 1 thing good, and 1 thing only, and the rest of the game is utter shit, it is enough for a small group of people to elevate that garbage to cult classic status. Yes, relative to 90s standards, Torment had good writting and C&C. The setting is debateable, it is a matter of taste. But we can all agree the writting was good and the choice design was good as well. Is this enough to carry a game and consider it a masterpiece, best of all time, etc? No. No. NO!. A game is not just the writting, it is not a book. It needs many elements to be great.

Now, some times cult classics have such an obnoxious cult behind them that they get elevated even in more mainstream channels. For example you can't read about a top X rpg list without having PST somewhere on the top places. Even if the faggots who compiled those lists never saw anything of PST other than a screenshot somewhere. Yet they all proclaim "best of all time, absolute classic", like those hipster idiots at "modern art" galleries who are capable of sitting and staring a turd on a pedestal for hours pondering at the deeper intellectual meaning of shit.

The emperor is naked. PST is a mediocre game all around, with a nice story and writting and some quality C&C. It can be a good experience for that niche group who is particularly interested in its strengths and don't care about the weaknesses. But please for the love of all that is holy, stop overrating it. It is not a masterpiece, it is not even one of the greatest rpgs. It is not above criticism just because you believe you are prestigious for liking it.

It has come to the point where PST is far more overrated than FFVII could ever hope to achieve. For fuck sake. /rant

 

[FeelTheRads]

Seems like i hurt the sensibilities of some oldfag fanboys. No arguments, just impotent ratings.

Oh yeah, sorry nobody replied with arguments to "this setting is shit".
Want an argument? Here is one: if you don't like the Planescape art it means you have shit taste so nothing you say is worth anything.

For fuck sake. /rant.

Retarded rant with no point behind it. Torment is criticized all the time for various things. It's only retarded idiots like yourself that get severely butthurt if there's a group of people liking the same thing that you don't. OMG guise please stop liking things I dont1!11111111111 pls for th elove of all that is holy pls

That's so sad and pathetic. Seriously, begging people to stop liking stuff you don't is at the top of the list of retarded faggotries.

 

[Jimmious]

Planescape as a setting was very interesting if you came from a pnp background. People who started playing in a typical fantasy setting like FR would eventually get hints about Planescape and how it is a place were all worlds collide with portals to all planes and so on...
That made it much cooler than simply jumping into it, at least for me. And to be honest I went from the hints while playing pen&paper straight to PS:T - it was a really cool experience.

But I do get that it has a lot of "gamey" concepts and that the concept of "EVERYTHING IS TOGETHER HERE" can also be simply interpreted as "the DM can do whatever he wants". I guess it's all about how you got introduced to the setting

 

[Lhynn]

Eberron was designed to be gamey, everything-but-the-kitchen-sink, arbitrary, pulp action steampunk D&D. It's by far the least sophisticated setting in the history of D&D (which is saying something), and its fans love it because of it.

It was a direct comparison between two similar settings? LIke holy shit the whole point is that they are similar, otherwise why bring it up.

The factions are so incredibly dumb, both mechanically and narratively speaking, and are incompatible with the cooperative nature of the game.

Each faction in planescape has a unique, but quite retarded, mechanical benefit, such as "you autowin initiative if you hurry and tell the DM what you are going to do disregarding what everyone else wants to do".

The factions are by far one of the most liked aspects. It's ok if they're not for you, but they obviously did something for players. Also, you've never played it, so how do you know it's "a pain to DM"?

I havent played the game you imbecile, but im familiar with the setting

"The lady, the doors, etc". Your knowledge from reading "all the official books" is really showing. And how does any of that hurt the storytelling?

They are examples, but to clarify. The doors as a mechanic mean that wherever you are and wherever you are not is completely at the whims of the narrative. If the narrative requires you to be with someone or someplace, the mechanics of the world make that happen.
The lady is another tool for this. If the players do something you dont like you can simply kick them, or trap them, or punish them how you see fit. They are tools of control built into the narrative, i hate the very idea of them and i think planescape is just pretentious shit that doesnt like to have players ruining its "factions and their philosphies" bullshit.

That's not from the books. You'd know that if you had actually read them. This is how they're introduced and described in the Campaign Setting book

I was talking about the art you autistic cunt, why would i use an image with text all over the place?

IIRC you once said you've never played PS:T. It seems that hasn't changed. The idea that it's good despite the setting is just absurd.

I havent played torment, doesnt mean i dont know what happens in the game. And it is mostly irrelevant to the conversation as im hating on the setting.

It's fine to hate Planescape. No accounting for taste and all that. However, pretending that you've read all the books and whatnot is just embarrassing.

I have read all the books. And they are shit.

Just say that you don't like the concept and hate the art. Oh, and you should play PS:T. It's a pretty good game.

No, as a game its pretty horrible.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I havent played torment

No, as a game its pretty horrible

Didn't play the game, but I know it's horrible! But it's better than the PnP! Which I also didn't play!

Just kill yourself. Guess I should've expected this kind of stupidity from a NWN1 fanboy.

 

[Life of the Party]

Basically, Numenera is like somebody read Book of the New Sun, really loved it but had no idea why and missed everything that is really great about it, and then just took the most trivial, most obvious bits and built an imitation out of that.

Numenera is like somebody read The Book of the New Sun only once.

 

[TemplarGR]

Oh yeah, sorry nobody replied with arguments to "this setting is shit".
Want an argument? Here is one: if you don't like the Planescape art it means you have shit taste so nothing you say is worth anything.



Retarded rant with no point behind it. Torment is criticized all the time for various things. It's only retarded idiots like yourself that get severely butthurt if there's a group of people liking the same thing that you don't. OMG guise please stop liking things I dont1!11111111111 pls for th elove of all that is holy pls

That's so sad and pathetic. Seriously, begging people to stop liking stuff you don't is at the top of the list of retarded faggotries.

Yeah yeah it's only fucking morons like you who don't understand that overrated!=bad. I know i am stirring the hornet's nest when i say things like they really are regarding PST, but it is the truth. It has among the lowest crpg's sales, both vanilla and enhanced editions, relatively to other games of its era. There is a reason for that and it is not because it is so good but only super-intelligent geniuses like yourself can appreciate the faggotry and the rest of us "plebs" are stupid. No, you would have liked that, retard, but it is not the case. It is just that the game is MEDIOCRE.

I never said PST is *bad*, and i also never asked you to stop liking it. You can even enjoy eating shit for all i care, who am i to judge? My only complaint is when idiots visit forums online and shout from the rooftops "eating shit is so good and so tasty, eating shit is the best thing of all time, you should all eat shit!" Do you understand the difference?

PST is a fucking mediocrity overrated to the extreme by people who have no good taste on games.

 

[Lhynn]

I havent played torment

No, as a game its pretty horrible

Didn't play the game, but I know it's horrible! But it's better than the PnP! Which I also didn't play!

Just kill yourself. Guess I should've expected this kind of stupidity from a NWN1 fanboy.

Go fuck yourself you retarded fanboy. By i havent played it i mean i haven't completed it.

I must have played 10 hours of restarts across the years. It always ends the same way, me stopping after the first few encounters because I grow bored with the gameplay of the game.

You guys are so full of shit. Unable and unwilling to tackle any criticism and instead attacking the one giving it.

 

[TemplarGR]

Go fuck yourself you retarded fanboy. By i havent played it i mean i haven't completed it.

I must have played 10 hours of restarts across the years. It always ends the same way, me stopping after the first few encounters because I grow bored with the gameplay of the game.

You guys are so full of shit. Unable and unwilling to tackle any criticism and instead attacking the one giving it.

This is the church of Avellone. Planescape: Torment is the holy grail. And us who dare say it is not perfect, are the infidels who need to be put to the sword...

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

I havent played torment

No, as a game its pretty horrible

Didn't play the game, but I know it's horrible! But it's better than the PnP! Which I also didn't play!

Just kill yourself. Guess I should've expected this kind of stupidity from a NWN1 fanboy.

Go fuck yourself you retarded fanboy. By i havent played it i mean i haven't completed it.

I must have played 10 hours of restarts across the years. It always ends the same way, me stopping after the first few encounters because I grow bored with the gameplay of the game.

You guys are so full of shit. Unable and unwilling to tackle any criticism and instead attacking the one giving it.

So basically you didn't play it.

 

[Lhynn]

I'm not even attacking avellones writing. What little i read i loved.

The gameplay itself sucks, this is known. I know some people will say that dialogue is gameplay too, and they'd be correct. But that doesn't change the amount of bullshit you have to go through.

And it doesn't change the fact that the setting far up it's own farts and shit.