Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

[IHaveHugeNick]

You have literally just spent previous 10 pages raging that developers absolutely can't change the original formula. Now apparently that they're not innovating enough. If you keep doing 180s at this rate you will generate enough electricity to power a small city.

I guess that expecting nuanced posters that don’t take things personally on the internet is like expecting developers to trying different things on dialogue system.

Attention citizens! I've located a special snowflake liberal infiltrator who is posing as a manly gamergator! He's so nuanced and speciul, those people on the internet, they just don't get him, amirite?

Hahaha, oh my sides. This went a lot better than I could have ever anticipated.

Tell you what though, you may be right. Seeing someone who argues against his own arguments made 5 minutes ago, is probably too much of a nuance for me. But, but, how about Avellone writing PS:T alone? How about PoE being promised as BG2 clone? Was that also nuance we didn't get, or were you just spewing made up bullshit? I'm only asking because I'm trying to understand you better.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So back to "What is an RPG?" again eh?

Never mind me, carry on

 

[Lurker King]

RPG with proper "real" dialogues and conversations already exists. Its called Alpha Protocol. But no Obsidian did not "profit" from it.

Why? Because they are real time? That only ensure that you have to choose your options really fast without having the time to read. It doesn’t help that the game has the worst gameplay in Obsidian’s history of development.

 

[Daedalos]

WTB: Actual game impressions from playing the game other than this pseudo-intellectual-wannabe butthurt rpg discussion, pl0x.

I'm a few hours in, and I'm enjoying myself ! :D

 

[Sigourn]

MY HEART IS WITH OBSIDIAN.

 

[Sizzle]

read “BG2 clone”

They never said "BG2 clone" even if it's what you wanted to hear. Bashing inXile for cutting their own stretch goals isn't the same as bashing Obsidian for not living up to your false assumptions.

LK hears what he wants to hear. The rest he makes up :D

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

TAdventure games like the new King's Quest or Dreamfall incorporate console-style platform-adventure elements, Tell Tale's games have abandoned most of the gameplay of adventures, MOBAs blur RPGs and RTS, etc.

Yes, those are the exceptions though [I don't particularly like the Telltale direction, btw. -- at some point you could simply do a movie outright. I think Dontnode morerecently do this far better, in parts because there is actually a centrally game mechanic to their thing rather than random QTE's triggered to roll the cutscene along, in parts because you actually get to explore on your pace, rather than pushed through thinly veiled cut scenes]. It's not so much about genre's blurring or going a platform/action route (which core adventure gamers despise). It's more about thinking outside of the box... something that has clearly gone on with the great adventure game studios of yesterday, which made them stand out. It's the copy cats that are forgotten. F'r instance, Laura Bow's focus on characters apparently carrying out their own agenda in a pseudo real-time closed environment rather than inventory items (would be as fresh now as it was back then), or the aforementioned Full Throttle literally kicking things out that were not going to work with the experience they were aiming for (and the "action" bits, still being puzzles in disguise). I don't get that when looking through say the portfolio of Daedalic, one of the more bigger houses -- and their recent Silence game looks pretty like their own stab at another company's formula too (the Telltale one). Naturally budgets are tight, sigh..

Of course, at the same time the early games were blurring boundaries not because developers were doing so deliberately but because the boundaries simply weren't clear.

It was either that or because they were more commited to their games, rather than worrying too much about what exactly what they were classed as by press and players. Agree with you there overall though -- Torment is clearly coming from an RPG's developers back ground, and that's not only because of the obvious D&D tag on the box -- the aforementioned Daedalic have developed actually Adventure Games (capital A, capital G) point&click games based on the Dark Eye Pen&Paper before. So saying Planescape:Torment would be an adventure game is missing the point.

 

[Wolfe]

WTB: Actual game impressions from playing the game other than this pseudo-intellectual-wannabe butthurt rpg discussion, pl0x.

I'm a few hours in, and I'm enjoying myself ! :D

I'm having fun as well, but I expected much more from a "spiritual successor". I'm just not impressed with the companions so far, but the universe is a blast to explore and learn about.

 

[Sigourn]

I feel like the writers tried too hard to make each NPC a unique snowflake, which results in every single person you talk to, even a lowly child, be nothing more than a lore / info dump. It's pretty tiresome as most of them don't have anything interesting to say in the first place, and I found myself simply clicking through the dialogue rather than reading it. Honestly, if this is what I can expect from the "game" experience being most of the time, there's simply no reason to continue playing.

It says terrible things about a game's writing when whenever I talk to an NPC I hope they just give a generic one-line reply, just so I can avoid an unnecessary dump. This is ironically the opposite of what happened to me in New Vegas. I loved to talk with people in that game. In Numenera, they say nothing interesting. Nothing of note. Nothing you can put into context, because surprise surprise, you have no fucking idea what they are talking about 90% of the time. And the 10% you actually understand is generally pointless and underwhelming.

It's a sad thing, but I had the same problem as you did: talking to that thing in red armor in the Circus area (which reminded me of the guards from PS:T) made me realize I needed to read two or three times what it was saying to me before I actually understood it. And then I realized it wasn't interesting, or memorable, or anything. So why continue the suffering when I could end it right there?

Ended up looking for the "attack" button, except there wasn't any.

10/10 great game Fargo, you peace of shiet.

 

[Lambach]

It's a sad thing, but I had the same problem as you did: talking to that thing in red armor in the Circus area (which reminded me of the guards from PS:T) made me realize I needed to read two or three times what it was saying to me before I actually understood it. And then I realized it wasn't interesting, or memorable, or anything. So why continue the suffering when I could end it right there?

The Genocide guy? Technically, his story is relevant because it reveals how the Changing God saved the city from him and his pals, IIRC. Thing is, his story is just info dump upon more info dump about things you know nothing about and don't really care because you're not given any reason to care (what the fuck is the Underspine other than "it's our slave, our master, our God blarghblargblargh dick slurp dick slurp" and how is it in any way relevant to me, for example?).

Like someone said earlier, this is barely an actual standalone game and more of an interactive advert for the Numanuma PnP setting.

 

[Gepeu]

Look at blablabla.

BlablablablablablablablablablaAmIDead?blablablablaSarcophagusblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaMirrorblablablablablablablablablablablablaShadowsblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaThoughtsblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaMemoriesblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaInspectblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla

1) Inspect bla.
2) What's blabla?
3) What's blablabla?
4) You mentioned blablablabla. What's it?

I choose 1)

blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaYouLookedUponblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaInterestingblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaEXTRAORDINARYblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaDestroyedblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablaPickedUpblablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla

You acquired 6 coins! Congratulations!


Companion reacts with blablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablablabla.




Great game, only for sophisticated connaisseurs. I rate it Lore/Dump.

 

[veevoir]

Ok, a post actually related to the game:

Anybody figured out how to die in bloom? I kinda killed the deadliest robot around and have no way back into labyrynth.

 

[Tigranes]

It's a sad thing, but I had the same problem as you did: talking to that thing in red armor in the Circus area (which reminded me of the guards from PS:T) made me realize I needed to read two or three times what it was saying to me before I actually understood it. And then I realized it wasn't interesting, or memorable, or anything. So why continue the suffering when I could end it right there?

The Genocide guy? Technically, his story is relevant because it reveals how the Changing God saved the city from him and his pals, IIRC. Thing is, his story is just info dump upon more info dump about things you know nothing about and don't really care because you're not given any reason to care (what the fuck is the Underspine other than "it's our slave, our master, our God blarghblargblargh dick slurp dick slurp" and how is it in any way relevant to me, for example?).

Like someone said earlier, this is barely an actual standalone game and more of an interactive advert for the Numanuma PnP setting.

It's like people just apply Roxor's Razor to everything without any actual discernment.

If you say "everything that isn't strongly related to immediate plot or gameplay is dump", then you might as well have the setting equivalent of a corridor shooter.

PST was richer for characters like Mourns-for-Trees. I am very happy for games to have a reasonable sprinkling of characters and stories that are only weakly tied to plot or gameplay.

The problem is when there's too much of it, and when it isn't very good.

I thought the Genocide guy was decent, and the idea of a long-suffering prisoner, reduced to the role of a clown, mocking a city that has become ignorant of the instruments of their own salvation, is pretty neat. But you meet so many irrelevant and tiresome NPCs in the first couple hours, it drags you down.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Ok, a post actually related to the game:

Anybody figured out how to die in bloom? I kinda killed the deadliest robot around and have no way back into labyrynth.

Maws, mostly. I believe the Bloom doesn't really have a secure and fixed spot for you to die, but I might be misremembering.

 

[AwesomeButton]

WTB: Actual game impressions from playing the game other than this pseudo-intellectual-wannabe butthurt rpg discussion, pl0x.

I'm a few hours in, and I'm enjoying myself ! :D

I'm doing this LP thing in the Codex playground. Feel free to chip in with thoughts.

 

[FeelTheRads]

1) Inspect bla.
2) What's blabla?
3) What's blablabla?
4) You mentioned blablablabla. What's it?

Speaking of which, I don't remember exactly where, but I swear at some point you ask someone "what's a X?" and the question doesn't really makes sense. Like, say, someone telling about Twitter, and you trying to be funny and saying "What's a twitter?".
Were they also trying to be funny and self-conscious about how most dialogues are just Q&As? Who knows?

 

[Sigourn]

It's like people just apply Roxor's Razor to everything without any actual discernment.

If you say "everything that isn't strongly related to immediate plot or gameplay is dump", then you might as well have the setting equivalent of a corridor shooter.

PST was richer for characters like Mourns-for-Trees. I am very happy for games to have a reasonable sprinkling of characters and stories that are only weakly tied to plot or gameplay.

The problem is when there's too much of it, and when it isn't very good.

I thought the Genocide guy was decent, but you meet so many irrelevant and tiresome NPCs in the first couple hours, it drags you down.

This is absolutely true. Particularly the "it drags you down" part. You meet so many lore dumps that eventually you don't have the patience or the will to read through the good ones. Numenera's NPCs are divided in the following two categories:

1. The ones that give you a one-line reply.
2. The ones that dump a staggering amount of lore and information upon you.

And then there's the third category: the ones that have reasonably sized dialogue, which are ironically the most memorable. I remember more about the NPCs against the execution of that man being crushed by his own words than I remember the first two companions' backstories, because I simply don't remember anything about the latter two. Only thing I remember about my rapist Indian companion was that he fought in lots of wars (dat memorable background).

It's frankly worrying that the NPCs in the second category have much more dialogue than important NPCs from New Vegas, or Fallout 1, if the comparison bothers you. And what's even worse is that the dialogue can only be described as "long" and nothing else. Characters in Fallout 1 had personality, and they certainly didn't need exposition that took 5 minutes to read through (I timed one NPC) and filler purple prose. Hell, I wish we could have known more about The King, or the Followers of the Apocalypse. Or Caesar's Legion.

Writers need to ask themselves: "What will the player remember about this NPC?". In Numenera's case, I suspect they were going for "Long conversations". I can't stress this enough: I'm not a writer, but when you write something you should try to get something across to the player, through the writing. What was Numenera trying to tell me? I don't know. It was lost somewhere deep below the purple prose. But unlike that black sludge thing at the beginning of the game, I'm not gonna wait until something good shows up.

And they can shove that quirky "28 hours a day" comment where the sun don't shine.

 

[veevoir]

Ok, a post actually related to the game:

Anybody figured out how to die in bloom? I kinda killed the deadliest robot around and have no way back into labyrynth.

Maws, mostly. I believe the Bloom doesn't really have a secure and fixed spot for you to die, but I might be misremembering.

Huh, shame I have all the maws open. Anyways, in other interesting news - Bloom is also affected by resting, namely the junk pile in mutants quarter actually has random loot (and one that starts a short quest).

 

[Lambach]

If you say "everything that isn't strongly related to immediate plot or gameplay is dump", then you might as well have the setting equivalent of a corridor shooter.

No, that's not what I was aiming at. My issue is that most of the fluff unrelated to the main plot just does not give you any reason to care about it. At all. Take the two dudes and their nychroma-whatsit (the robotic squid thingy in the cage) for an example. The gist of their story is that they ran away from a place where human (or sentient in general) sacrifice is commonplace and they were next on the chopping block. They're planning to get back and fix things using the funds they got by showing the squid to people. It's a pretty cliche story, so there's no novelty to keep you hooked. Those two are neither amusing, special or charming in any way, so you really don't give a fuck about what happens to them and you give even less of a fuck about what happens to their city that you've never even heard of before just now. You learn nothing useful from them, you gain no new insights into your character or his/her plight, nothing. This is true of at least 70% of the content I've encountered so far.

 

[existential_vacuum]

It was good that some of the companions knew your past incarnations, but they were still interested what you were going to do now. Otherwise they wouldn't be with you.

*cough* mark *cough* of *cough* torment *cough* draws *cough* tormented *cough* souls.
There is no interest in what new incarnation will do, it's specificly stated that they are drawn to TNO. And when you confront them they tell you, why they are following (which supports what Ravel tells you).

 

[Projas]

Spoiler

Nice.

 

[AetherVagrant]

fuuuuck. I love the setting and story going on, but im already in the Bloom at like 20hours, and ive only failed 2-3 quests. It actually feels shorter than Tyranny, or POE, but what is there is good quality. Though cutting so may of the CYOA parts makes them feel jarring when you can get through the whole game only seeing 2-3 of them. Same with combat, i rarely wish for more combat in game, and i like using skills to avoid it...but in this game it feels like combat is *rarely* an option and must be actively sought out.
Someone compared it to Sanitarium, and thats what it feels like the most -- Sanitarium meets King of Dragon Pass, + HR Geiger

*edit* an attack option on more dialogues would, ironically, add more roleplaying.

 

[Gepeu]

Speaking of which, I don't remember exactly where, but I swear at some point you ask someone "what's a X?" and the question doesn't really makes sense. Like, say, someone telling about Twitter, and you trying to be funny and saying "What's a twitter?".
Were they also trying to be funny and self-conscious about how most dialogues are just Q&As? Who knows?

1) [Lie] Yes.
2) [Tell the truth] Yes.
3) [Intelligence] Who knows indeed.
4) You mentioned "them". Who are "they"?

 

[Sizzle]

It's a sad thing, but I had the same problem as you did: talking to that thing in red armor in the Circus area (which reminded me of the guards from PS:T) made me realize I needed to read two or three times what it was saying to me before I actually understood it. And then I realized it wasn't interesting, or memorable, or anything. So why continue the suffering when I could end it right there?

The Genocide guy? Technically, his story is relevant because it reveals how the Changing God saved the city from him and his pals, IIRC. Thing is, his story is just info dump upon more info dump about things you know nothing about and don't really care because you're not given any reason to care (what the fuck is the Underspine other than "it's our slave, our master, our God blarghblargblargh dick slurp dick slurp" and how is it in any way relevant to me, for example?).

Like someone said earlier, this is barely an actual standalone game and more of an interactive advert for the Numanuma PnP setting.

It's like people just apply Roxor's Razor to everything without any actual discernment.

If you say "everything that isn't strongly related to immediate plot or gameplay is dump", then you might as well have the setting equivalent of a corridor shooter.

PST was richer for characters like Mourns-for-Trees. I am very happy for games to have a reasonable sprinkling of characters and stories that are only weakly tied to plot or gameplay.

The problem is when there's too much of it, and when it isn't very good.

I thought the Genocide guy was decent, and the idea of a long-suffering prisoner, reduced to the role of a clown, mocking a city that has become ignorant of the instruments of their own salvation, is pretty neat. But you meet so many irrelevant and tiresome NPCs in the first couple hours, it drags you down.

Actually, his story does become a bit relevant later on - there's a machine (you can get to it using the tunnels in Matkina's hideout) the CG used to repel their attack - you can use to teleport around the city, and look at different parts of the city and surrounding areas in different points in time.

 

[Shadenuat]

I am also at the Bloom and finishing quests there, and I noticed something else: there are no important main characters (NPCs) in the game relevant to main plot who have actual character arcs and follow you around.

I also click on things with my 20 INT and 5 edge and everything solves itself automatically.

I'm beginning to think the reason game doesn't click with me is a bit more complicated as there are definitely more than just one design mistake made during making this game. But I am too busy clicking purple globes, looking at pretty scenery and waiting for some sort of revelation from the game for now.